Timing Chain Tensioners, Legal Victory
Discussion
Briefly, I purchased a 4 year old XK8 from a dealer in Sep 2001, in Nov 2003 the tensioners failed resulting in a £6800 repair bill.
I was in court this morning and claimed that the tensioner failure was an inherent fault in the XK8 and that the goods were not of a quality that a reasonable person would expect.
the Judge agreed, today I am £6800 better off and was awarded costs of £452, I conducted my own case.
I have lots of information that I have gained over the past year and would be willing to help anybody else out.
vegnomeat@hotmail.com
Wayne Ballinger
I was in court this morning and claimed that the tensioner failure was an inherent fault in the XK8 and that the goods were not of a quality that a reasonable person would expect.
the Judge agreed, today I am £6800 better off and was awarded costs of £452, I conducted my own case.
I have lots of information that I have gained over the past year and would be willing to help anybody else out.
vegnomeat@hotmail.com
Wayne Ballinger
I have just written to you directly, but also wanted to take this opportunity to congratulate you publicly. I too am currently involved in litigation with Jaguar in relation to an XK8 - and was advised by an independent expert to do so on yet another topic relating to the failure/replacement of the entire front suspension and subframe due to the well-known bushes problem.
In passing, what were the symptoms of the tensioners failing - can you remember any warning signs or noise, and (apologies if you have already answered this!) at what mileage did the failure occur?
My 98 XK8 has currently done a little under 74k and - touch wood - the engine appears to be fine and eerily quiet (except when using the "S - for - Silly" button under full throttle!) I am experiencing the same "burns" to the shoulder of the drivers seat as occurred in my previous +/- 100k XJS's, but otherwise the car appears to be in fairly good shape.
Finally - wouldn't it be far better if, rather than closing down Brown's Lane, Jaguar closed down all of the franchised dealerships instead...... those of you who live in the Reading/Swindon area (like me)would I am sure thrill at the prospect of our local workshop managers getting their come-uppance.....
In passing, what were the symptoms of the tensioners failing - can you remember any warning signs or noise, and (apologies if you have already answered this!) at what mileage did the failure occur?
My 98 XK8 has currently done a little under 74k and - touch wood - the engine appears to be fine and eerily quiet (except when using the "S - for - Silly" button under full throttle!) I am experiencing the same "burns" to the shoulder of the drivers seat as occurred in my previous +/- 100k XJS's, but otherwise the car appears to be in fairly good shape.
Finally - wouldn't it be far better if, rather than closing down Brown's Lane, Jaguar closed down all of the franchised dealerships instead...... those of you who live in the Reading/Swindon area (like me)would I am sure thrill at the prospect of our local workshop managers getting their come-uppance.....
Hi,
"The story is as printed below :
In September 2001 I purchased a used Jaguar XK8 (reg 1997) from my local Jaguar dealer. The car had covered 43,000 miles and over the next two years I added another 20,000 miles. The car was serviced as per the service schedule and at 60,000 miles was serviced by the main dealer at a cost of some £800.
At 64,000 miles the car suffered a total engine failure whilst it was being started. There was no warning at all, The failure was initially diagnosed as a broken timing chain but since the diagnosis the dealer had changed its opinion a number of times. I paid £6800 for a new engine.
However, I now find that an engine failure on an early XK8 is quite a regular occurrence and that Jaguar has been replacing these engines free of charge for a number of years. Apparently the engine bores were lined with a substance called Nikasil that was prone to degrade when fuelled by petrol with a sulphur content. (BMW suffered a similar problem in the late 90s). A further design problem became apparent when XK8 engines started failing due to a poorly designed timing chain tensioner, this was the subject of a recall notice issued by Jaguar in the USA. I suspect that a private recall notice was issued by Jaguar UK, but can't prove it.
Jaguar dealers test for the fault concerning Nikasil. But you don't know about it and neither do you get the results. I feel that a V8 engine should manage to cover more than 65,000 miles without replacement and that both Jaguar and the main dealer misled myself and other users in order to maintain confidence in the Jaguar brand.
The above story was posted on the Top Gear "duffers" site a year ago, Since then I have been putting together a case against the dealer that was resolved this week in my favour.
In essence, Jaguar refused to allow the dealer (H A Fox) to disclose details of recalls, service actions and other documents concerning the timing chain tensioner. The court took a dim view of their refusal to disclose under the rules of discovery. Further, the dealer (despite my requests not to) returned the engine to Jaguar before I was allowed to inspect it.
The Judge ruled that the Jaguar was sold to myself with an inherent engine fault, namely the tensioner design.
It wasn't difficult to prove, I used an article that Jaguar World Magazine published in Dec 2003/Jan 2004 and I cited the Sale of goods act 1979, which in essence states " Goods must be as as described, fit for purpose and of satisfactory quality. Aspects of satisfactory quality include durability. They must reach the standards that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking in to the account the price and any description.
The Judge remarked that a reasonable person spending £30,000 would expect the engine to last more that 65,000 miles on a prestigious vehicle such as a Jaguar.
One final point, I am not legally trained and researched the workings of the Fast track court system via a few books (not small claims court) and presented my own case in its entirety.
Regards
Wayne Ballinger
"The story is as printed below :
In September 2001 I purchased a used Jaguar XK8 (reg 1997) from my local Jaguar dealer. The car had covered 43,000 miles and over the next two years I added another 20,000 miles. The car was serviced as per the service schedule and at 60,000 miles was serviced by the main dealer at a cost of some £800.
At 64,000 miles the car suffered a total engine failure whilst it was being started. There was no warning at all, The failure was initially diagnosed as a broken timing chain but since the diagnosis the dealer had changed its opinion a number of times. I paid £6800 for a new engine.
However, I now find that an engine failure on an early XK8 is quite a regular occurrence and that Jaguar has been replacing these engines free of charge for a number of years. Apparently the engine bores were lined with a substance called Nikasil that was prone to degrade when fuelled by petrol with a sulphur content. (BMW suffered a similar problem in the late 90s). A further design problem became apparent when XK8 engines started failing due to a poorly designed timing chain tensioner, this was the subject of a recall notice issued by Jaguar in the USA. I suspect that a private recall notice was issued by Jaguar UK, but can't prove it.
Jaguar dealers test for the fault concerning Nikasil. But you don't know about it and neither do you get the results. I feel that a V8 engine should manage to cover more than 65,000 miles without replacement and that both Jaguar and the main dealer misled myself and other users in order to maintain confidence in the Jaguar brand.
The above story was posted on the Top Gear "duffers" site a year ago, Since then I have been putting together a case against the dealer that was resolved this week in my favour.
In essence, Jaguar refused to allow the dealer (H A Fox) to disclose details of recalls, service actions and other documents concerning the timing chain tensioner. The court took a dim view of their refusal to disclose under the rules of discovery. Further, the dealer (despite my requests not to) returned the engine to Jaguar before I was allowed to inspect it.
The Judge ruled that the Jaguar was sold to myself with an inherent engine fault, namely the tensioner design.
It wasn't difficult to prove, I used an article that Jaguar World Magazine published in Dec 2003/Jan 2004 and I cited the Sale of goods act 1979, which in essence states " Goods must be as as described, fit for purpose and of satisfactory quality. Aspects of satisfactory quality include durability. They must reach the standards that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking in to the account the price and any description.
The Judge remarked that a reasonable person spending £30,000 would expect the engine to last more that 65,000 miles on a prestigious vehicle such as a Jaguar.
One final point, I am not legally trained and researched the workings of the Fast track court system via a few books (not small claims court) and presented my own case in its entirety.
Regards
Wayne Ballinger
Excellent stuff Wayne, more power to your elbow 
However, this has got me worried that my pride and joy is about to go :POP:! Mine is an early XK (Dec86) with 64K. Had the blow-by check done on purchase(no probs) and has even got new front bushes on. Haven't a clue about the tensioners though!
Is there a mod or retrofit that a dealer should have done to stop them failing 'from now on' ... or are we all on borrowed time? How can I check? She is running a smooth as silk ... as far as I can tell!
Rgds
However, this has got me worried that my pride and joy is about to go :POP:! Mine is an early XK (Dec86) with 64K. Had the blow-by check done on purchase(no probs) and has even got new front bushes on. Haven't a clue about the tensioners though!
Is there a mod or retrofit that a dealer should have done to stop them failing 'from now on' ... or are we all on borrowed time? How can I check? She is running a smooth as silk ... as far as I can tell!
Rgds
Update on second lawsuit against Jaguar Cars:
In August this year I issued a writ against Jaguar in respect of corrosion in the wheelarches and sills of my 1998 XK8; Jaguar and its local dealership had refused to even inspect the car under the then-current Perforation & Corrosion Warranty, in spite of a detailed report from an independent expert witness clearly setting out the nature and extent of the problem, and identifying it as a manufacturing defect.
Jaguar failed to submit any defence to the Claim, and by default Judgement has now been entered in my favour for a little over £1,000.
The way these people treat their customers is despicable. I love the car, but in the light of the current uncertainty surrounding Jaguar's future, please excuse me for gloating. "Mene Mene Tekel Upharsin", as the Old Testament might have wryly observed....
In August this year I issued a writ against Jaguar in respect of corrosion in the wheelarches and sills of my 1998 XK8; Jaguar and its local dealership had refused to even inspect the car under the then-current Perforation & Corrosion Warranty, in spite of a detailed report from an independent expert witness clearly setting out the nature and extent of the problem, and identifying it as a manufacturing defect.
Jaguar failed to submit any defence to the Claim, and by default Judgement has now been entered in my favour for a little over £1,000.
The way these people treat their customers is despicable. I love the car, but in the light of the current uncertainty surrounding Jaguar's future, please excuse me for gloating. "Mene Mene Tekel Upharsin", as the Old Testament might have wryly observed....
It is quite astonishing the lack of customer service in the UK. I have only just heard from a friend of mine, about his small claims court battle with his local Dealer (not Jaguar). He won.
I do feel that you both have done an excellent job, which if enough of us do standup and say enough is enough, will lead to an eventual change. I feel that many companies have confidence in the legal system in such that it seems like a minefield to any disgruntled customer, stopping them from persuing such action.
I am very disappointed in Jaguar, obviously by sticking their head in the sand and not wanting to recognise they have serious problems with their early cars, doesn't inspire much confidence in their board.
Anyone know if there are problems with the 2001 or later cars, or has the chain tensioner problem been sorted?
Incidently, what are the legal standings whereby one judge has awarded a claim of damages due substandard parts, can all Jaguar owners in the same boat use the precedent to win their own cases or is it on a case by case basis?
G
I do feel that you both have done an excellent job, which if enough of us do standup and say enough is enough, will lead to an eventual change. I feel that many companies have confidence in the legal system in such that it seems like a minefield to any disgruntled customer, stopping them from persuing such action.
I am very disappointed in Jaguar, obviously by sticking their head in the sand and not wanting to recognise they have serious problems with their early cars, doesn't inspire much confidence in their board.
Anyone know if there are problems with the 2001 or later cars, or has the chain tensioner problem been sorted?
Incidently, what are the legal standings whereby one judge has awarded a claim of damages due substandard parts, can all Jaguar owners in the same boat use the precedent to win their own cases or is it on a case by case basis?
G
Legal Precedent in Civil Claims
Firstly, each case turns on its particular facts, and where facts are in dispute, the Judge inevitably has to choose between two competing versions of events. No contested case is therefore ever a foregone conclusion.
Secondly, although the High Court and the Appellate Courts do generate a hierarchical system of binding legal precedents in respect of points of law (primarily interpretation), County Court judgements do not form binding precedents, and are consequently of limited evidential value (unless it's before the same Judge!)The way to deploy this kind of evidence is to refer to the arguments used, rather than the judgement - i.e. "As was successfully argued in the case of X v Y, which involved a dispute of a broadly similar nature,blah blah blah".
One other trick; try and keep the claim below £1,000 and hence in the Small Claims Court, for the simple reason that, if you lose, they can't be awarded legal costs against you. I acknowledged "betterment" to the vehicle as a consequence of the new underseal, and knocked off 20%, which conveniently brought the sum below the Small Claims threshold and made me look ultra-reasonable.
I'm not a lawyer and although I am quite comfortable conducting my own litigation, I strongly recommend that anyone contemplating taking on a firm like Jagwa gets legal advice, whether from a Solicitor or from a Citizens Advice Bureau / Neighbourhood Law Centre.
Firstly, each case turns on its particular facts, and where facts are in dispute, the Judge inevitably has to choose between two competing versions of events. No contested case is therefore ever a foregone conclusion.
Secondly, although the High Court and the Appellate Courts do generate a hierarchical system of binding legal precedents in respect of points of law (primarily interpretation), County Court judgements do not form binding precedents, and are consequently of limited evidential value (unless it's before the same Judge!)The way to deploy this kind of evidence is to refer to the arguments used, rather than the judgement - i.e. "As was successfully argued in the case of X v Y, which involved a dispute of a broadly similar nature,blah blah blah".
One other trick; try and keep the claim below £1,000 and hence in the Small Claims Court, for the simple reason that, if you lose, they can't be awarded legal costs against you. I acknowledged "betterment" to the vehicle as a consequence of the new underseal, and knocked off 20%, which conveniently brought the sum below the Small Claims threshold and made me look ultra-reasonable.
I'm not a lawyer and although I am quite comfortable conducting my own litigation, I strongly recommend that anyone contemplating taking on a firm like Jagwa gets legal advice, whether from a Solicitor or from a Citizens Advice Bureau / Neighbourhood Law Centre.
gosh this sounds like a TVR thread, rubbish dealers and intransigent manufacturers. I am thinking of getting a Jag again at the moment and can highly recommend the independent who looked after my old XJS - JLC www.jlcltd.co.uk/ they were always brilliant, reasonably priced and helpful.
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