Radical bashing !
Discussion
On the track day forum there is a topic refering to a record number of stoppages at more than one track day. I was at Silverstone Wed this week with Gold Track There were at least 10 red flags and three big accidents, IMHO all caused by drivers running out of talent. Sadly it seems that quite a few participants were upset by the number of and speed of the Radicals on the day. We were no where near the quickest Rad on the day but not at all upset by SR8's whistling past ! Maybe it's because we use our mirrors and move over for quicker cars.
If this continues, IMHO it is probably only a question of time before Radicals (and similar) will be banned from most if not all trackdays.
It matters not a jot whether or not Radicals were in any way responsible for all those stoppages - there'll just be a knee jerk 'by association 2+2=5' reaction; i.e. lot of stoppages, lot of Radicals, so the two must be related, so lets not allow any Radicals.
Having looked at the photos, I make there were about fifteen paying customers in Radicals or similar and about eighty five other paying customers who weren't in Radicals or similar. If push comes to shove, take a wild guess who is going to become no longer welcome.
That quantity of Radicals on a general open pit lane trackday with the vast majority of cars of much lesser performance coupled with drivers of all sorts of ability (a few in effect total novices) is bound to spook a lot of other customers - and those that it doesn't are going to have to spend a lot more time looking in their rear view mirrors than they usually would have to; that in itself will seriously reduce their enjoyment, so they're sure to get arsey about the whole thing eventually.
Can anyone actually imagine anything more incompatible than a novice in something like a 206 who barely knows which way the track goes, being on track with a Works Driver in a Works SR8 who has driven it so many times they could almost do it blindfolded? Silverstone's considerable length and huge width is the only thing that makes such an incompatible combo in any way viable. If it was happening at Brands Indy, the newbie would be being lapped about every three or so laps - that would be a most unproductive and thoroughly unenjoyable way to start getting into trackdays.
TBH, I think it's high time that Radical revisited the whole concept of all these almost monthly Trial Days @ Silverstone; in isolation, there's no problem with them doing it, but the reality is way different; factor in the flock effect that's happening and it's probably only a question of time before the 'NO RADICALS ALLOWED' sign gets flagged up.
As you know Vic, we always drive with the same courtesy as you do; that we do so will not get us on track if ALL Radicals and similar get banned; if that happens I will be seriously pissed off period and I shall be less than best pleased with anyone who has contributed to my/our trackday fun being spoilt. You too?
It matters not a jot whether or not Radicals were in any way responsible for all those stoppages - there'll just be a knee jerk 'by association 2+2=5' reaction; i.e. lot of stoppages, lot of Radicals, so the two must be related, so lets not allow any Radicals.
Having looked at the photos, I make there were about fifteen paying customers in Radicals or similar and about eighty five other paying customers who weren't in Radicals or similar. If push comes to shove, take a wild guess who is going to become no longer welcome.
That quantity of Radicals on a general open pit lane trackday with the vast majority of cars of much lesser performance coupled with drivers of all sorts of ability (a few in effect total novices) is bound to spook a lot of other customers - and those that it doesn't are going to have to spend a lot more time looking in their rear view mirrors than they usually would have to; that in itself will seriously reduce their enjoyment, so they're sure to get arsey about the whole thing eventually.
Can anyone actually imagine anything more incompatible than a novice in something like a 206 who barely knows which way the track goes, being on track with a Works Driver in a Works SR8 who has driven it so many times they could almost do it blindfolded? Silverstone's considerable length and huge width is the only thing that makes such an incompatible combo in any way viable. If it was happening at Brands Indy, the newbie would be being lapped about every three or so laps - that would be a most unproductive and thoroughly unenjoyable way to start getting into trackdays.
TBH, I think it's high time that Radical revisited the whole concept of all these almost monthly Trial Days @ Silverstone; in isolation, there's no problem with them doing it, but the reality is way different; factor in the flock effect that's happening and it's probably only a question of time before the 'NO RADICALS ALLOWED' sign gets flagged up.
As you know Vic, we always drive with the same courtesy as you do; that we do so will not get us on track if ALL Radicals and similar get banned; if that happens I will be seriously pissed off period and I shall be less than best pleased with anyone who has contributed to my/our trackday fun being spoilt. You too?
splitpin said:
Can anyone actually imagine anything more incompatible than a novice in something like a 206 who barely knows which way the track goes, being on track with a Works Driver in a Works SR8 who has driven it so many times they could almost do it blindfolded? Silverstone's considerable length and huge width is the only thing that makes such an incompatible combo in any way viable. If it was happening at Brands Indy, the newbie would be being lapped about every three or so laps - that would be a most unproductive and thoroughly unenjoyable way to start getting into trackdays.
Sounds like a Combe GT race....
Simon
www.tillingmotorsport.com
Hi Guys,
Did a day at Oulton a couple of weeks ago and I think that will be my last track day and will now only do test days. The pace of these cars are far quicker than most other even quick cars, to the point that you cannot put a decent lap together due to traffic and other slow cars.
It is a shame but I guess thats what you get with open pit lane events with no ability segregation!
Andy.
Did a day at Oulton a couple of weeks ago and I think that will be my last track day and will now only do test days. The pace of these cars are far quicker than most other even quick cars, to the point that you cannot put a decent lap together due to traffic and other slow cars.
It is a shame but I guess thats what you get with open pit lane events with no ability segregation!
Andy.
As someone whos just been on a Radical Trial Day at Brands Hatch and now decided to sell my top end Caterham to get either an SR3 RS or a Juno I find the prospect of being banned before I've even started a little worrying!
It has been suggested to me that attending Test Days might be a better idea but I know nothing about them, how often do they run, where, are they even on weekends and whats the costs?
It has been suggested to me that attending Test Days might be a better idea but I know nothing about them, how often do they run, where, are they even on weekends and whats the costs?
This kind of discussion has been going on for years. It's not about the cars, it's about driver attitude.
I ran my SR3 on track days for 3 years, my Juno on a couple of track days, and now my SR3RS, all without problem and no real issue with traffic. In fact, just lots of great memories.
I ran my SR3 on track days for 3 years, my Juno on a couple of track days, and now my SR3RS, all without problem and no real issue with traffic. In fact, just lots of great memories.
MikeE said:
As someone whos just been on a Radical Trial Day at Brands Hatch and now decided to sell my top end Caterham to get either an SR3 RS or a Juno I find the prospect of being banned before I've even started a little worrying!
It has been suggested to me that attending Test Days might be a better idea but I know nothing about them, how often do they run, where, are they even on weekends and whats the costs?
Don't panic Mike, best to forewarn/flag up rather than sit idly by until the impossible/unthinkable happens; all it needs is for certain people to start using their brains i.e. not allowing the perception (or reality) of a general (meaning any car and level of driving skill/experience) open pitlane being turned into a Radical & similar corporate type day. It has been suggested to me that attending Test Days might be a better idea but I know nothing about them, how often do they run, where, are they even on weekends and whats the costs?
The ultimate solution is of course exclusively Radical (and why not similar) Trackdays as per ROC's Inaugural @ Silverstone last year; it was fantastic, free flowing and totally incident free despite very different levels of driver pace.
For Test Days (designed for racers testing them and their machines, so overtaking wherever you want etc), you'll need a minimum of a National B Race Licence: Have a look at MSV to get an idea of costs/ dates etc.
AndrewD said:
This kind of discussion has been going on for years. It's not about the cars, it's about driver attitude.
I ran my SR3 on track days for 3 years, my Juno on a couple of track days, and now my SR3RS, all without problem and no real issue with traffic. In fact, just lots of great memories.
Likewise Andy; never had one single issue (other than people letting us past rather last mo and then following our brakelights only to find out they can't brake like a Radical I ran my SR3 on track days for 3 years, my Juno on a couple of track days, and now my SR3RS, all without problem and no real issue with traffic. In fact, just lots of great memories.
) and no-one ever copped the nark because we were in a Radical. However, we were one of say two/three Radicals on a general trackday; bet there would have been a much less friendly vibe if we had been one of 15 - 20 trying to (politely of course) make their way through stuff like MX5s / effectively novice drivers etc![quote=splitpin][quote=MikeE]
The ultimate solution is of course exclusively Radical (and why not similar) Trackdays as per ROC's Inaugural @ Silverstone last year; it was fantastic, free flowing and totally incident free despite very different levels of driver pace.
So I guess one obvious solution would be to promote your Radical exclusive track days more widely, and maybe more regularly. You are absolutely right IMO that ultimately there may be a backlash against mixing "Racing Cars" and road cars on a trackday - in fact I am a little surprised that in our elfnsafety culture it hasn't already happened!
Perhaps a deal could be struck with MSV to promote Road Going Race Car oriented track days? Is there enough of a potential customer base to make a useful commercial venture?
The ultimate solution is of course exclusively Radical (and why not similar) Trackdays as per ROC's Inaugural @ Silverstone last year; it was fantastic, free flowing and totally incident free despite very different levels of driver pace.
So I guess one obvious solution would be to promote your Radical exclusive track days more widely, and maybe more regularly. You are absolutely right IMO that ultimately there may be a backlash against mixing "Racing Cars" and road cars on a trackday - in fact I am a little surprised that in our elfnsafety culture it hasn't already happened!
Perhaps a deal could be struck with MSV to promote Road Going Race Car oriented track days? Is there enough of a potential customer base to make a useful commercial venture?
gaxor said:
So I guess one obvious solution would be to promote your Radical exclusive track days more widely, and maybe more regularly. You are absolutely right IMO that ultimately there may be a backlash against mixing "Racing Cars" and road cars on a trackday - in fact I am a little surprised that in our elfnsafety culture it hasn't already happened!
Perhaps a deal could be struck with MSV to promote Road Going Race Car oriented track days? Is there enough of a potential customer base to make a useful commercial venture?
As you'll know from the ROC Forum, having been frustrated in it's efforts this year, ROC is continuing efforts to do exactly that in 2011. I'd prefer "our" rather than "your" as ROC has been initiated solely for the benefit of it's Members, along the lines of LOT, creating many and various opportunities for owners to maximise their enjoyment of their Radicals. It's not and has never been about making profit (how many times have you heard that, but surprise, surprise, for once it's actually true!) and at best, it may or may not cover it's running costs. It has achieved what it has so far (which is quite a lot) off the back of several thousands of £s from 'daft as a brush' me and thousands of hours of hard unpaid graft by Founder Will, with a lot of moral support & cooperation from all sorts of Radical Heroes and indeed, fair play to them, Radical themselves*. The only way to make money from exclusive trackdays for multi-tasking cars like Radicals is to add a big chunk of money on to what a TDO wants and that would make it that much more expensive for participants and therefore contrary to what ROC was set up to achieve. Perhaps a deal could be struck with MSV to promote Road Going Race Car oriented track days? Is there enough of a potential customer base to make a useful commercial venture?
There are ongoping negotiations re 2011 with a number of TDOs and there have been discussions with MSV who are friendly enough, but sight can't be lost of the fact that they are a very big business (therefore guys 'n gals in Radicals are a flea on an elephant's axxe in the great scheme of things) and that obviously, they focus on the tracks that they own, which means (as it is easier to list what they don't own!) not Silverstone, not Rockingham etc. They are also currently promoting exactly the contrary
What happens in 2011 will ultimately be dependent upon how ROC Members respond - hopefully you'll be one of those who do positively respond.
And thinking about it, I'm thinking that this sort of trackday compatibility topic is perhaps best debated in a member-only area before the nerds start joining in? You know the type ........... joined three months ago, now at 25,000 posts ...........
- *As you may or may not have noticed, not that it's stopped naughty me (as a devoted Radical Forum Pistonheader) 'having a pop' in the public arena when I see stuff I don't like/think less than fair, like the points scoring system in the Quaife Cup
AndrewD said:
This kind of discussion has been going on for years. It's not about the cars, it's about driver attitude.
I ran my SR3 on track days for 3 years, my Juno on a couple of track days, and now my SR3RS, all without problem and no real issue with traffic. In fact, just lots of great memories.
As a contrary view, I quickly found it quite tedious. Even if people quickly realise you're a lot quicker, you often end up compromising a few corners, so you almost never get a clean lap. At some places, e.g. Spa it doesn't matter, most other tracks it does. The other major issue is that once you catch up with someone there is nothing to do except get bored. At least in a powerful Caterham you can have some fun in the corner until the next straight. I sold my SR3 after 2 years, but have had the subsequent Caterham over 5.I ran my SR3 on track days for 3 years, my Juno on a couple of track days, and now my SR3RS, all without problem and no real issue with traffic. In fact, just lots of great memories.
Does nobody offer Radical track day rental?
dannylt said:
AndrewD said:
This kind of discussion has been going on for years. It's not about the cars, it's about driver attitude.
I ran my SR3 on track days for 3 years, my Juno on a couple of track days, and now my SR3RS, all without problem and no real issue with traffic. In fact, just lots of great memories.
As a contrary view, I quickly found it quite tedious. Even if people quickly realise you're a lot quicker, you often end up compromising a few corners, so you almost never get a clean lap. At some places, e.g. Spa it doesn't matter, most other tracks it does. The other major issue is that once you catch up with someone there is nothing to do except get bored. At least in a powerful Caterham you can have some fun in the corner until the next straight. I sold my SR3 after 2 years, but have had the subsequent Caterham over 5.I ran my SR3 on track days for 3 years, my Juno on a couple of track days, and now my SR3RS, all without problem and no real issue with traffic. In fact, just lots of great memories.
Does nobody offer Radical track day rental?
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