Which to buy - SR3, SR4 or none?
Discussion
Looking for some advice from folks on here. Have currently got a quick Westie as a toy (blat & track days) but keep coming back to look at Radicals, more & more of recent!
Spoke with guys at Radical yesterday and they suggested that a SR3 may be a more wise investment over the SR4 - mainly citing numbers in existence (easier to get spare parts), the Suzuki engine (as opposed to ZZR1200) and that they are a current model so hold their value better.
I'm going to look at a couple of SR4's (wavesport7's and another from racecarsdirect) and a SR3 (jpivey's) in the next couple of weeks, as well as attend a Radical trial day at Silverstone in August, but also wanted some advice from you guys who actually own and run them.
What I'm looking for is something I can use on road occasionally but more so as a quick track day toy. Just thinking of track days - not racing (at this moment anyway!)
Take into consideration that I'm not very mechanically minded (but have got a very good mechanic friend!) so am looking for something that's easy to maintain/run - almost a 'jump in & drive' toy that needs the occasional TLC not constant tweaking.
So, do either the SR4 or SR3 fit into this category and if they both do, what are the merits/advantages/disadvantages of each against the other.
thanks
Spoke with guys at Radical yesterday and they suggested that a SR3 may be a more wise investment over the SR4 - mainly citing numbers in existence (easier to get spare parts), the Suzuki engine (as opposed to ZZR1200) and that they are a current model so hold their value better.
I'm going to look at a couple of SR4's (wavesport7's and another from racecarsdirect) and a SR3 (jpivey's) in the next couple of weeks, as well as attend a Radical trial day at Silverstone in August, but also wanted some advice from you guys who actually own and run them.
What I'm looking for is something I can use on road occasionally but more so as a quick track day toy. Just thinking of track days - not racing (at this moment anyway!)
Take into consideration that I'm not very mechanically minded (but have got a very good mechanic friend!) so am looking for something that's easy to maintain/run - almost a 'jump in & drive' toy that needs the occasional TLC not constant tweaking.
So, do either the SR4 or SR3 fit into this category and if they both do, what are the merits/advantages/disadvantages of each against the other.
thanks
I can't comment on road use as I would not consider doing it. Have owned an SR4 and currently PR6.....both cars are/were regularly maintained by a non techy like me. Good regular maintnenace is all that is needed. I don't mean constant tweaking either just do all the basics right and remember that you are putting everyting under stress when track daying. The SR3 is bigger than the SR4, has more grip ( comparatively ), and is not chain driven. The SR3 should have better passenger access. The SR4 is tighter but still takes two big blokes...( honest ! )
The obvious thing to say is that if you buy secondhand you are acquiring someone else's wear & tear ( or abuse ) You may only find this when using the car but it is not a reason to blame the car !
Depending on your skill levels both cars will do all you want and still leave spare capacity.
Its all a compromise unless you have unlimited money..the SR4 may be cheaper but be a bit smaller, the SR3 is bigger ( fit in trailer ? ) and may hold its money better...
Hope that helps..............re reading it probably not !
FOB DD
The obvious thing to say is that if you buy secondhand you are acquiring someone else's wear & tear ( or abuse ) You may only find this when using the car but it is not a reason to blame the car !
Depending on your skill levels both cars will do all you want and still leave spare capacity.
Its all a compromise unless you have unlimited money..the SR4 may be cheaper but be a bit smaller, the SR3 is bigger ( fit in trailer ? ) and may hold its money better...
Hope that helps..............re reading it probably not !
FOB DD
Relatively easy answer IMHO (and whoops 'contrary' to what Radical say)> those considerations relate more to buying a new / near new car and also, not all SR4s have a new longer used Kwacker engine (not that there's anything wrong at all with the 1200 Kwack).
If you can live with it's tighter cockpit (for the passenger, not the driver as the driver gets the same in either - most can, some can't) go for the SR4, preferably a Busa engined one. Reasons are 1) the SR4's smaller size is a boon for the DIYer to move, load and trailer around, 2) being original manufacturer size (stroke and bore) the 1299cc is a really tough engine that has just the right power and delivery for road reg/trackday car, whereas most think it's not quite enough in the bigger and heavier SR3, which is why most have a stroker 1500, which makes it inherently more fragile/susceptible and 3) if you search out the correct car, you'll get a better and newer car for your (say £15K) money i.e. more for your money.
Don't go worrying about the SR4's chain drive; it's only weakness/downside is stretch relative to full bore standing starts and that's never an issue for road and trackday use.
I reckon a well looked after SR4 is one of the best if not the best ballistic trackday cars sensible money can buy. It's a peach.
If you can live with it's tighter cockpit (for the passenger, not the driver as the driver gets the same in either - most can, some can't) go for the SR4, preferably a Busa engined one. Reasons are 1) the SR4's smaller size is a boon for the DIYer to move, load and trailer around, 2) being original manufacturer size (stroke and bore) the 1299cc is a really tough engine that has just the right power and delivery for road reg/trackday car, whereas most think it's not quite enough in the bigger and heavier SR3, which is why most have a stroker 1500, which makes it inherently more fragile/susceptible and 3) if you search out the correct car, you'll get a better and newer car for your (say £15K) money i.e. more for your money.
Don't go worrying about the SR4's chain drive; it's only weakness/downside is stretch relative to full bore standing starts and that's never an issue for road and trackday use.
I reckon a well looked after SR4 is one of the best if not the best ballistic trackday cars sensible money can buy. It's a peach.
fergus said:
double d racing said:
The SR4 is tighter but still takes two big blokes...( honest ! )
Biggish, but not *very* big, eh Trev! 
OK it'll be a struggle for a shortarse like Fergus ........ you'd best tell the OP your modest vital statistics - and I didn't mean the bragging bit
thanks splitpin - tbh I started thinking about the SR3, now seem to be erring towards the SR4 (budget is easier to keep SWMBO on board!!) I guess I'll have to have a sit in both seats and figure out if the SR4 is going to be big enough. I'm 6ft and a slightly lard arse (but not too big to fit into the Westie), so if I can fit in the passenger seat, then 99% of my mates can!
Re: engines - other than chain drive in the Kawa - what are the main differences between the Busa and Kawa engined ones? Are either of them more reliable than the other, more expensive to fix, cheaper to maintain?
Do you know what the reason was for Radical moving to Suzuki exclusively?
Re: engines - other than chain drive in the Kawa - what are the main differences between the Busa and Kawa engined ones? Are either of them more reliable than the other, more expensive to fix, cheaper to maintain?
Do you know what the reason was for Radical moving to Suzuki exclusively?
6ft & a bit of a lardy arse will present no problem whatsoever as a driver: I'm 6ft, no problem and others on here who have owned SR4s aren't short and have a generous posterior .......... who am I thinking of?
6ft passengers are also not a problem, but best if they go say 12 stone max; biggest chap we ever had in our SR4 was about 6'3" at about 15 stone; a darn tight squeeze, but he still really enjoyed himself; people have a different outlook/perspective when they're squeezed into a Radical as a few laps passenger; you just have to show them where to hold to keep your gear change elbow room clear.
Kwackers use carbs whereas most Busa engined SR4s have injection; Busa in a racing SR4 had a restricted ECU to level it's power down to the Kwacks; get one that was ordered 'not for racing' and chances are it'll have the ECU that enables full power. My view would be that both engines are tough as old boots: Kwack engine has long gone and now little in demand by BES, so plenty parts and whole engines around and cheap as chips, but remember that the engines out of bikes aren't dry-sumped. Busa now rules the roost and has done for several years now; a Busa can be made to do/produce almost anything, but you won't need much if any of that for trackday use. Our SR4 had the full output 1299 Busa and never had a rebuild over four years plus of considerable trackday use - never missed a beat in the two years of trackdays we did with it. I suspect the refresh cost for a Kwack or Busa by Powertec is not much different. That said, a used Busa engine will cost about three times that of a Kwack; people do actually buy the latest bikes just for their engines and sell off all the other bits.
As to Radical moving over exclusively to Suzuki, I suspect that reflects how esteemed/dominant/tunable the Busa had become by 2004-ish, plus some economies of scale, other commercial considerations etc I dare say; using 1200 Kwack engines in the SR4 when it first appeared in late 2003/early 2004, when the Clubbies had kicked off with 1100 Kwacks was kind of a logical progression as well I suppose.
6ft passengers are also not a problem, but best if they go say 12 stone max; biggest chap we ever had in our SR4 was about 6'3" at about 15 stone; a darn tight squeeze, but he still really enjoyed himself; people have a different outlook/perspective when they're squeezed into a Radical as a few laps passenger; you just have to show them where to hold to keep your gear change elbow room clear.
Kwackers use carbs whereas most Busa engined SR4s have injection; Busa in a racing SR4 had a restricted ECU to level it's power down to the Kwacks; get one that was ordered 'not for racing' and chances are it'll have the ECU that enables full power. My view would be that both engines are tough as old boots: Kwack engine has long gone and now little in demand by BES, so plenty parts and whole engines around and cheap as chips, but remember that the engines out of bikes aren't dry-sumped. Busa now rules the roost and has done for several years now; a Busa can be made to do/produce almost anything, but you won't need much if any of that for trackday use. Our SR4 had the full output 1299 Busa and never had a rebuild over four years plus of considerable trackday use - never missed a beat in the two years of trackdays we did with it. I suspect the refresh cost for a Kwack or Busa by Powertec is not much different. That said, a used Busa engine will cost about three times that of a Kwack; people do actually buy the latest bikes just for their engines and sell off all the other bits.
As to Radical moving over exclusively to Suzuki, I suspect that reflects how esteemed/dominant/tunable the Busa had become by 2004-ish, plus some economies of scale, other commercial considerations etc I dare say; using 1200 Kwack engines in the SR4 when it first appeared in late 2003/early 2004, when the Clubbies had kicked off with 1100 Kwacks was kind of a logical progression as well I suppose.
thanks for a good answer splitpin
I'm going to have a look at a few this week, so have some good questions to ask. Still undecided whether I would be better off buying a road going one over a track only one - the kid in me says that I'll want to take it out for a quick blat down country lanes on a nice day - the grown up says I'll kill myself doing that!
You say Kwack is cheap as chips but not dry sumped out of a bike - what would you say is a reasonable 'new engine' cost to source, dry sump and fit, should the worst happen? I only ask as it cost me about £5000 to sort out my Westie after a conrod exploded and put some extra breathing holes into the engine!
I'm going to have a look at a few this week, so have some good questions to ask. Still undecided whether I would be better off buying a road going one over a track only one - the kid in me says that I'll want to take it out for a quick blat down country lanes on a nice day - the grown up says I'll kill myself doing that!
You say Kwack is cheap as chips but not dry sumped out of a bike - what would you say is a reasonable 'new engine' cost to source, dry sump and fit, should the worst happen? I only ask as it cost me about £5000 to sort out my Westie after a conrod exploded and put some extra breathing holes into the engine!
superlight7 said:
Sorry for the HiJack but why not try the water with a cheaper Clubsport and see how you go.....this what I did and having just upgraded my very clean clubbie is up for sale.
I think that's a very interesting way to go (and no I'm not selling a car!). The clubsport is a great entry to radical ownership for track days and racing.It's slower than the SR3s and PR6s by about 5 seconds a minute (ie a 60 minute lap in a clubbie takes 55 secs in a PR6/SR3). The difference is in the corners as they are quick in a straight line. They are also brilliant fun to drive. I don't know Geoff's car specifically, but from talking to him I'd expect it to be in super condition. There's also Josh's car that has aero on it to look at.
Bert
superlight7 said:
Few pictures of my car which has just been listed For Sale on Pistonheads.
As this clearly shows (what a beaut - and I dare say Josh's will be a similarly attractive proposition), a good Clubbie is easily the most cost-effective way of getting into/starting Radical Ownership.It all hinges on what a buyer actually wants to get out of their first Radical; if one seat will do, then this is the way. If two seats and the actual or theoretical prospect of getting it road-registered, then it likely has to be an SR4, albeit with at least £4k-ish more outlay for a decent one.
Either are unbelievably competent (and capable of dealing with machinery thousands and thousands and thousands of £s more) for an outlay of under £10K to say £15K-ish.
BertBert said:
It's slower than the SR3s and PR6s ..... (ie a 60 minute lap in a clubbie takes 55 secs in a PR6/SR3). The difference is in the corners as they are quick in a straight line.
Bert
The SR3s & PR6s going one lap forwards, the Clubbie doing fifty laps backwards? Bert
danski73 said:
hadn't thought about a Clubsport, although the single seat may be a no-goer for me. A BIG part of Radical ownership for me will be scaring the bejesus out of my friends & family!!! Surely that in itself is worth the extra money???
That's why I said (unless you suddenly decide you want to/can do more solo-type things) on the basis of your original post that if finances allow the extra money, the SR4 seems to be the one for you to target/focus in on. On trackdays, our SR4 very rarely had an empty passenger seat even after giving immediate friends and family some 'better hold on tight' experiences .......... there's always helpers to reward. Like you, two seats in a Radical capable of multi-tasking is a VERY BIG part of my enjoyment of Radical Ownership which is why our new car also has a pair (even if it did cost 40%-ish more than the absolutely superb PR6.)Edited by splitpin on Monday 5th July 17:18
am going to see this one on Wednesday - http://pistonheads.com/sales/1833661.htm
Does anyone know anything about this one in particular? Also, what are your thoughts re: cost?
Am also going to see Guy's (wavesport7) road going SR4 tomorrow.
Does anyone know anything about this one in particular? Also, what are your thoughts re: cost?
Am also going to see Guy's (wavesport7) road going SR4 tomorrow.
For what it's worth I think the novelty of running an SR3 on the road would very quickly fall away, particularly if you ever get it on track.
Our SR3 normally has two lardy middle agers in it, or a lightweight filly that our middle aged egos have persuaded to come for a ride. For me, giving people a ride doubles the fun!
Our SR3 normally has two lardy middle agers in it, or a lightweight filly that our middle aged egos have persuaded to come for a ride. For me, giving people a ride doubles the fun!
The SR4 formally owned by Toby Newton seemed to defy the laws of physics - or maybe that was just his driving style. It's a good car!
During his first outings in the car he was accompanied by a rather portly driving instructor. They both squeezed in an out of it fairly easily. They just popped the fire extinguisher out to give the passenger more leg space.
During his first outings in the car he was accompanied by a rather portly driving instructor. They both squeezed in an out of it fairly easily. They just popped the fire extinguisher out to give the passenger more leg space.
splitpin said:
BertBert said:
It's slower than the SR3s and PR6s ..... (ie a 60 minute lap in a clubbie takes 55 secs in a PR6/SR3). The difference is in the corners as they are quick in a straight line.
Bert
The SR3s & PR6s going one lap forwards, the Clubbie doing fifty laps backwards? Bert
With regards taking pax on track days, that's a very good point as well as for getting instruction. That's where the SR4 wins out. You pays yer money...
Bert
am going to see this one on Wednesday - http://pistonheads.com/sales/1833661.htm
Does anyone know anything about this one in particular? Also, what are your thoughts re: cost?
Seems a lot of kit for not a lot of money..............DDFOB
Does anyone know anything about this one in particular? Also, what are your thoughts re: cost?
Seems a lot of kit for not a lot of money..............DDFOB
quick update for all
I've been to see both Guy's and Simon's cars. Both are very tidy and I would happily buy either. In fact, I was very close to buying Simon's car having figured out that the road really isn't the right place for a Radical, but the Wife Factor has come into play and put a stop (hopefully a temporary one!) to things.
Normally speaking the WF isn't a problem in the slightest, but for some reason she thinks I'm going to kill myself in the Radical, so a little more education is needed methinks! Have tried the "I'd rather crash in a Radical than the Westfield, not that I'm planning to crash!" argument and "Race cars are stronger than kit cars", but it all seems to be falling on deaf ears at the moment. Can anyone think of any other lines I can try to overcome the WF???
BTW - you can all stop laughing now! I'm properly gutted!!!
I've been to see both Guy's and Simon's cars. Both are very tidy and I would happily buy either. In fact, I was very close to buying Simon's car having figured out that the road really isn't the right place for a Radical, but the Wife Factor has come into play and put a stop (hopefully a temporary one!) to things.
Normally speaking the WF isn't a problem in the slightest, but for some reason she thinks I'm going to kill myself in the Radical, so a little more education is needed methinks! Have tried the "I'd rather crash in a Radical than the Westfield, not that I'm planning to crash!" argument and "Race cars are stronger than kit cars", but it all seems to be falling on deaf ears at the moment. Can anyone think of any other lines I can try to overcome the WF???
BTW - you can all stop laughing now! I'm properly gutted!!!
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