Looking to join radical scene...

[DaveB89]

Morning All!

Ive just joined up here & been interested in the radical cars for a while and i'm looking to purchase a lower end model as a track car only for the time being, and then possibly compete in a race series, something like the following:

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1512359.htm

(I hope who ever this car belongs to, doesnt mind me using it as an example)

1) Firstly is this vehicle a 2 seater?

2) is this the older version of the PR6, ive noticed they seem to have one seat and i cant find much info regarding the clubsport & prosport and differences.

3) Ive seen the propsport available in various guises zzr1100, zzr1200 and busa 1300...i presume the 1300 is the "best"?

4) Any inherent problems with the chassis above, that i will need to keep an eye? or upgrade to newer parts?

5) Anywhere in the north-east that deals with geo setup, damper rebuilds, genreal servicing, general maintenance?

6) approx cost to run the car for a trackday season, inc. damper rebuild(if required?) discs, pads, clutch etc. i also presume its sensible to get the motor rebuilt after each season?

Apologise for all the Q's, suppose its better to get it all in one post than clog the forum up! Also im grateful of any other input regarding joining the radical scene

Ps. if anyone is looking to do a deal with a lotus exige let me know...

Thanks
Dave

[BertBert]

DaveB89 said:

Morning All!

Ive just joined up here & been interested in the radical cars for a while and i'm looking to purchase a lower end model as a track car only for the time being, and then possibly compete in a race series, something like the following:

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1512359.htm

I saw that and thought it was interesting. It's an older car (not sure what age). Radical originally produced the clubsport, then the prosport. The Prosport has evolved into the current PR6. If you look at the TSL timing (google) results for 2009 you can see the car competing and judge its speed. It's clearly not as quick as the current PR6s, but I am not sure of everything that makes up the difference. The main difference between clubsport and prosport is the fat wing at the back.

DaveB89 said:

1) Firstly is this vehicle a 2 seater?

Single seater. For 2 seats you need an SR4 or an SR3 (or one of the rare clubsport 2-seat conversions like I have)

DaveB89 said:

2) is this the older version of the PR6, ive noticed they seem to have one seat and i cant find much info regarding the clubsport & prosport and differences.

Yes.

DaveB89 said:

3) Ive seen the propsport available in various guises zzr1100, zzr1200 and busa 1300...i presume the 1300 is the "best"?

Yep I guess so. But I reckon as a track day car, there's not much to choose between.

DaveB89 said:

4) Any inherent problems with the chassis above, that i will need to keep an eye? or upgrade to newer parts?

Chassis should not be an issue provided it's ok IYSWIM. It has been a race car probably for some time, so you need to check the condition. I don't think the chassis is a weak point particularly. The place with some worry is uprights. They are fabbed and can crack around the welds and eventually let go. They really need to be inspected well and/or crack tested. You'll need to check the condition of all the bits of course when buying. Wilwood brakes are ok (if it has those), but not terribly long lasting.

DaveB89 said:

5) Anywhere in the north-east that deals with geo setup, damper rebuilds, genreal servicing, general maintenance?

Dunno!

DaveB89 said:

6) approx cost to run the car for a trackday season, inc. damper rebuild(if required?) discs, pads, clutch etc. i also presume its sensible to get the motor rebuilt after each season?

It's pretty light on wear items, budget on a few hundred for brakes, chains (15 hours?) etc. The main expense is in the engine. I have had two bouts with my zzr1100. One was a big rebuild when the gbox let go. To be fair I should've paid more attention when buying as I could've found out the engine had wear from a compression test. The second was also a gbox problem but much cheaper. The engine in theory needs a refresh every 30 hours running. I think if you were using it more sympathetically than when racing you might go further than that. I think I worked out that I should get two medium trackday seasons out of an engine.

Refresh will be 2-4k depending on how much needs doing and who does it (Powertec being at the top end).

As regards whether you should do it, then of course you should! I loved my clubsport as a track day car and now absolutely love it as a race car!

One thing is that it's hard work on your own. Doable, but you need help to get bodywork on and off etc. It's good with two people. Having 2 seats for trackdays is also good.

Bert

[gixermark]

That particular car is totally immaculate.. and most definitaly worth a look if you are in the market for this type of car..

I have absolutely no connection with car nor owner - purely know it as it was beside us at Donington last year, and it genuinely is immaculate and the guys that owns/drives it is extremely fussy, and a nice chap.

to me the 1300 prosport is a total bargain and can still run with the 'current' radicals.. you're unlikely to get overal race wins in it - but you definately have the potential to mix it at the sharp end..

I owned a very similar spec car last year and £ for £ they simply can't be beaten

The PR06 is defaintely step forward - its a central seat position rather than the conventional off set seating of the prosport/clubsport... the chassis and lots of components changed on the PR06 and in the same hands will be quicker - but you'd probably be talking twice the ££ ish.. albeit for a fresher and 'better' car

[double d racing]

The car belongs to Sheridan Bell. He is very very fussy and will have everything spot on.
FOB 91

[DaveB89]

BertBert said:

DaveB89 said:

Morning All!

Ive just joined up here & been interested in the radical cars for a while and i'm looking to purchase a lower end model as a track car only for the time being, and then possibly compete in a race series, something like the following:

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1512359.htm

I saw that and thought it was interesting. It's an older car (not sure what age). Radical originally produced the clubsport, then the prosport. The Prosport has evolved into the current PR6. If you look at the TSL timing (google) results for 2009 you can see the car competing and judge its speed. It's clearly not as quick as the current PR6s, but I am not sure of everything that makes up the difference. The main difference between clubsport and prosport is the fat wing at the back.

DaveB89 said:

1) Firstly is this vehicle a 2 seater?

Single seater. For 2 seats you need an SR4 or an SR3 (or one of the rare clubsport 2-seat conversions like I have)

DaveB89 said:

2) is this the older version of the PR6, ive noticed they seem to have one seat and i cant find much info regarding the clubsport & prosport and differences.

Yes.

DaveB89 said:

3) Ive seen the propsport available in various guises zzr1100, zzr1200 and busa 1300...i presume the 1300 is the "best"?

Yep I guess so. But I reckon as a track day car, there's not much to choose between.

DaveB89 said:

4) Any inherent problems with the chassis above, that i will need to keep an eye? or upgrade to newer parts?

Chassis should not be an issue provided it's ok IYSWIM. It has been a race car probably for some time, so you need to check the condition. I don't think the chassis is a weak point particularly. The place with some worry is uprights. They are fabbed and can crack around the welds and eventually let go. They really need to be inspected well and/or crack tested. You'll need to check the condition of all the bits of course when buying. Wilwood brakes are ok (if it has those), but not terribly long lasting.

DaveB89 said:

5) Anywhere in the north-east that deals with geo setup, damper rebuilds, genreal servicing, general maintenance?

Dunno!

DaveB89 said:

6) approx cost to run the car for a trackday season, inc. damper rebuild(if required?) discs, pads, clutch etc. i also presume its sensible to get the motor rebuilt after each season?

It's pretty light on wear items, budget on a few hundred for brakes, chains (15 hours?) etc. The main expense is in the engine. I have had two bouts with my zzr1100. One was a big rebuild when the gbox let go. To be fair I should've paid more attention when buying as I could've found out the engine had wear from a compression test. The second was also a gbox problem but much cheaper. The engine in theory needs a refresh every 30 hours running. I think if you were using it more sympathetically than when racing you might go further than that. I think I worked out that I should get two medium trackday seasons out of an engine.

Refresh will be 2-4k depending on how much needs doing and who does it (Powertec being at the top end).

As regards whether you should do it, then of course you should! I loved my clubsport as a track day car and now absolutely love it as a race car!

One thing is that it's hard work on your own. Doable, but you need help to get bodywork on and off etc. It's good with two people. Having 2 seats for trackdays is also good.

Bert

Thanks for the reply!

anyone have an idea whats involved in a 2 seat conversion? I think it would be beneficial to have a 2 seater on trackdays.

Also, need to try and locate a garage that can look after them which is fairly local, dont want to have to trailer it miless everytime i break it!

[BertBert]

gixermark said:

to me the 1300 prosport is a total bargain and can still run with the 'current' radicals.. you're unlikely to get overal race wins in it - but you definately have the potential to mix it at the sharp end..

I agree with the bargain comment especially if it has been well looked after. Not sure it'll run at the sharp end as it were. Had a look at a couple of qualifyings from last year and it was down amongst the clubsports 7 secs off the pace at Rockingham, 9 at croft. However for what it is, that doesn't matter at all for track days. Could be a great car.

Bert

[splitpin]

If you can live with a single seat, that sounds like a real good (very well known) one, so buy it.

If you want/need two seats (only you can answer that, but by far the majority of trackdayers do, what with mates, sharing and alternating with driving/shotguning, rewarding helpers with thrill rides etc) don't; buy an SR4, ideally Busa, but no sweat if it's a Kwack12); doubling up in an SR4 is far far more satisfactory (and I'd say way safer) than in a converted Clubsport/Prosport, simply because that is what the SR4 was designed to do by the folks @ Peterborough.

ROC's Website gives a good intro on all models including Previous Models.

[BertBert]

DaveB89 said:

anyone have an idea whats involved in a 2 seat conversion? I think it would be beneficial to have a 2 seater on trackdays.

Two seat conversion is done by Van Kaiser who is near Heathrow. He has done a couple including mine. It involves the fitting of the SR4 seat unit and some fabrication to move the roll bar stays, the gear linkage, steering, cutoff switch and mod the bodywork slightly.

Some on here don't like it much, but I'm a fan! When I did it, there was a big difference in price between the clubsport and the SR4 which definitely made it worthwhile to get two seats.

Bert

PS if you wait around to the end of the season (just over 3 months) mine might be for sale!

[ScottHughes]

DaveB89 said:

Thanks for the reply!

anyone have an idea whats involved in a 2 seat conversion? I think it would be beneficial to have a 2 seater on trackdays.

Also, need to try and locate a garage that can look after them which is fairly local, dont want to have to trailer it miless everytime i break it!

This is just my opinion but the cost of owning a radical will be much higher if you can't look after them yourself, after each track day use you need to be able to bleed the brake's, spanner check all the critical bolts, change the oil and filter, and probably mend something! it would also be better if you were able to carryout minor works at the track as if not your day could come to an end early. If you just want to turn up and drive the car it would probably end up cheaper to hire one each time?

All that said anyone who can turn their hand to using a spanner and with the help of guys on here can probably manage to do most things required, just budget £200 to kit yourself out with tools....!

WRT the car.. I think it would be an excellent starting point and as an example I believe that it would probably lap most circuits 10-15 seconds per lap faster than your lotus.......

[BertBert]

splitpin said:

doubling up in an SR4 is far far more satisfactory (and I'd say way safer) than in a converted Clubsport/Prosport

I'm not being argumentative (and only a tiny bit defensive of my buying decisions) but... I'm not convinced by that argument. There is more room in my car for pax than in an SR4, I've been pax in both. In the SR4 your feet are stuffed in on top of each other.

Back in the day, it was less than half the price of even a used SR4 although I suspect the economics have changed a bit now.

Bert

[splitpin]

Each to his own and Vive La Difference!

The PX foot stacking (for some but not all, depends on calf & hoof size) in an SR4 is the result of a very deliberate safety feature designed and built in by Radical to ensure the driver's room and actions never get compromised, for example, by an over-excited passenger. Basically, in the SR4, taking the overall cockpit as 100%, it gets divided up circa 60% driver, 40% passenger because rightly for safety's sake, the driver gets priority; in fact other than length, the driver of an SR4 gets to all intents and purposes, exactly the same room as in an SR3; the extra width in that means the passenger can be given the same room as the driver (once he or she has learned how to pass legs over the FE.

Factor in that indeed the economics have changed now, other than finding one, moreover a good one because of the relatively low production numbers and all those wiped out when the Biduro was running, to my mind it's a bit of no brainer if someone wants a two seater.

Incidentally, from what I hear from the single seater front-runner boys in the same hands and to all intents and purposes the same standard spec, there's no way a Prosport can keep hold of a PR6, especially the latest ones.

[BertBert]

Mmm, my point is that there is nothing superior in the SR4 arrangement over mine.

The seat unit is from the SR4 and the footroom is better for pax and prefectly good for driver.

So there is no safety compromise and the pax has room for feet.

Bert

[splitpin]

BertBert said:

So there is no safety compromise and the pax has room for feet.

Bert

OK Bert, going to have to come clean about my biggest concern/unease over these single seater to two seater conversions, hence me quoting just your last line.

As we all know, all Radicals have space frames that Radical will have spent a long time designing and testing for a sensible (and probably reasonably conservative) compromise between weight and strength (and of course cost versus price).

As I understand it, these two seater conversions of single seater Clubsports and Prosports involve the relocation of the forward facing stays that are definitely a very important integrally welded part of their space frames: Until I know better (and how can I, ever?) I make the assumption that Radical put them in precisely that position for a very good reason; that they are in the optimum postion for rigidity whilst allowing the driver access and I am uneasy that someone comes along later and repositions them; for example, was that repositioning stress, rigidity and rollover analysed in the same way and to the same extent as the Factory does these things? That whole roll bar area is a key component of the FIA Testing that every open-top racecar has to pass in order to know that it performs safely right above and around the driver's head, so how does it perform if one of it's related members has been moved? Seems rather a bold move to me to just assume and rely on it being OK; probably more a case of 'your guess is as good as mine?'

Whilst the Clubsport and Prosport have integral welded forward facing stays, the SR4 does not; they are bolt-in options; I take this to mean that the SR4 space frame has been designed to have sufficient integral rigidity without them (so that the cockpit is wide enough for two seats) and I think this can be seen if one looks at a bare SR4 space frame; the main side frames are much higher at the roll hoop end and therefore more triangulated on an SR4, whereas on a bare Clubsport/Prosport space frame, it looks like the much lower and effectively horizontal side rails works in conjunction with the forward stays to achieve the overall rigidity in an appreciably different way.

That's why I'll always naturally prefer a car that was given two seats at the Factory rather than one that's been pretty significantly modified not by the Factory to enable the addition of an extra seat.

[barryv12]

cant comment on chassis rigidity, but when i raced last year simon de garston had a 1300 sr4 and he beat a few pr6 and a lot of prosports and kept simon t honest for a few laps until his 1750 or whatever it is kicked in. Seriously though i have always wondered why the sr4 should be any slower than a prosport. Aero dynamicaly it looks pretty good smaller frontal area than a pr6, same suspension. Having just bought a mint SR4 hayabusa i guess i will soon find out for myself!

[gaxor]

barryv12 said:

Having just bought a mint SR4 hayabusa i guess i will soon find out for myself!

Welcome back to the dark side!

[splitpin]

barryv12 said:

cant comment on chassis rigidity, but when i raced last year simon de garston had a 1300 sr4 and he beat a few pr6 and a lot of prosports and kept simon t honest for a few laps until his 1750 or whatever it is kicked in. Seriously though i have always wondered why the sr4 should be any slower than a prosport. Aero dynamicaly it looks pretty good smaller frontal area than a pr6, same suspension. Having just bought a mint SR4 hayabusa i guess i will soon find out for myself!

That's good to hear Barry , what are you going to use it for?

Simon or Charles de Garston?

As to why an SR4 is/was a couple of seconds off the pace of a Prosport at such as BH GP, Snett etc, I think that's a combo of two things; firstly it carries more weight (it has a heavier - and immensely strong - space frame, the main contributor being the double tubing that it carries in the roll bar area so it doesn't have to rely on those integrally welded forward stays thus allowing it to be a two seater and also it's bodywork is more complex and heavier - say 50Kg total?) and secondly, although it looks fantastic - IMHO, by far the best looking Radical until the SR3/5/8 got RS'd - I suspect that the Bentley Le Mans inspired front styling/cooling ducts actually make it quite high and therefore rather bluff aerodynamically.

I think that had the SR4 received the long period of continual development by Radical that the Clubsport > Prosport > PR06 and the SR3 did/have, that the SR4 would have become a very formidable car indeed. Aside from the big engined specials (boy, do they shift), there's at least one 1340K8 engined SR4 out there racing and I reckon it would give a 1299 Prosport some serious grief. Given the big recent increase in sales of the SR4, perhaps it will get that development; let's hope so, it's a superb car and even if it doesn't, aside from it's pretty tight passenger space, it still makes one of the best trackday cars that reasonable money can buy.

[barryv12]

sorry charles...i shall be doing a few races here and there as the budget allows. The first thing i will do is get in on the scales and find out what the real world weight is, i bet it closer than you think to a pro6. I have to say the quality and finish of the bodywork is the best i have seen so far on any radical. its curious how they are back in fashion again apparently a lot are going to italy and checkoslovakia.

[BertBert]

splitpin said:

Until I know better (and how can I, ever?) I make the assumption that Radical put them in precisely that position for a very good reason

I understand where you are coming from, but I think that they are not in that precise a position! If you look at John and Ian's cars you will see that the stays attach to the roll bar at very different heights. But as you suggest it's a moot argument. I'm happy enough with it.

On to the SR4, am I right in thinking there aren't any in the club cup this year?

Bert

[splitpin]

BertBert said:

On to the SR4, am I right in thinking there aren't any in the club cup this year?

Bert

Correct, a pity, but probably understandable:

If I'm remembering this right >

A 1300 SR4 goes in the Prosport Class, meaning it's up against 1340 PR6s, so not a cat in hell's chance there. One could buy a new 1340 SR4, but an out and racer knows he or she will be running against 1340 PR6s, so wouldn't as it starts with a meaningful weight disadvantage.

However, food for belated thought; a 1200 SR4 goes in the Clubsport Class and I'd guess that if someone had read the new rules really carefully, they could/should have gone for one and would have had a very good chance of taking the Championship; whilst it is difficult to be precise (as they don't differentiate between 1200 & 1300 SR4's) Fastest Racing Laps certainly suggests (as did Rachel's results last year) that the 1200 SR4 usually has the legs over an 1100 Clubsport; even if not, a couple of extra SR4s in your Class would have helped reduce the chances of you guys 'half-pointing'.

[BertBert]

splitpin said:

However, food for belated thought; a 1200 SR4 goes in the Clubsport Class and I'd guess that if someone had read the new rules really carefully, they could/should have gone for one and would have had a very good chance of taking the Championship; whilst it is difficult to be precise (as they don't differentiate between 1200 & 1300 SR4's) Fastest Racing Laps certainly suggests (as did Rachel's results last year) that the 1200 SR4 usually has the legs over an 1100 Clubsport; even if not, a couple of extra SR4s in your Class would have helped reduce the chances of you guys 'half-pointing'.

Indeed, I thought there was one entered in the C class before the start of the season, but maybe I imagined it. It would seem that the club cup class stucture doesn't help SR4s. People aren't going to be keen to get a 1200 one and as you say, the 1300 would be johnny-no-mates in with the PR6s.

Half pointing is a pain in the neck even if low numbers helps us newbies get trophies!

Bert