Club Sport Tyres (Again - Sorry)
Discussion
Researched previous posts but still not totally clear on which way to go...but I am clear that I want to start my own set up on NEW Tyres.
Car came with several sets of rims with the slicks being Matador's.. I believe these are no longer available and have failed to find anyone else making the same sizes.
The previous owner had set the car up with the Matadors so I must me able to get the additional -ve camber to cope with Radials equally I would be happy to Xply.
Front wheels marked as 6" wearing 185 / 530 / R13
Rear Wheels marker as 8" wearing 210 / 560 / R13
Options -
Go direct to Radical and buy their Dunlops....but the cost of £800+ makes my Caterham CR500's look VERY cheap by comparison.
Looking through Avon's Size charts I can see a few options that come close in size....but which do I go for - is it more important to match width or diameter (no rude respones to that).
What make and size options are other people running on their Clubsports and what did other people change to from the Matadors.
What compound to go for (track days starting in the cold next month).
What's the guide price and where's the best / cheapest to buy from?
Car came with several sets of rims with the slicks being Matador's.. I believe these are no longer available and have failed to find anyone else making the same sizes.
The previous owner had set the car up with the Matadors so I must me able to get the additional -ve camber to cope with Radials equally I would be happy to Xply.
Front wheels marked as 6" wearing 185 / 530 / R13
Rear Wheels marker as 8" wearing 210 / 560 / R13
Options -
Go direct to Radical and buy their Dunlops....but the cost of £800+ makes my Caterham CR500's look VERY cheap by comparison.
Looking through Avon's Size charts I can see a few options that come close in size....but which do I go for - is it more important to match width or diameter (no rude respones to that).
What make and size options are other people running on their Clubsports and what did other people change to from the Matadors.
What compound to go for (track days starting in the cold next month).
What's the guide price and where's the best / cheapest to buy from?
Hopefully RobC (or obviously such as Mark A or Mark B) will put in an appearance; what he doesn't (they don't) know about Clubsports and their tyres probably isn't worth knowing!
For example, my recollection is that the Clubbie was originally designed / set up to run Avon crossply slicks, presumably on 6" front & 7" rear Alleycats and that the (shall we just say not particularly loved, especially the wets) Matadors were actually radials. So IF it was set to run on Matadors. it's set up to run radials. If you want radials that are PRECISELY the correct size, then I think that means Dunlops if you are going to run 7" fronts and 9" rears. Michelin make suitable (but not precisely correct) sizes if you are going to run 8" fronts and 10" rears, but my gut reaction is that these would provide too much contact/grip for the power of a Clubbie, whereby it loses some of it's delightful adjustability on the throttle? Fine on a Busa engined Prosport, but too much for a ZZR1100 engined Clubbie? Added to which, if you're really determined to start learning on brand new tyres (BTW, I go along with what BertBert said on that), the Michelins would be much the same price (perhaps more) than the Dunlops?
Nowadays, the only time one tends not to see Dunlops in profusion on Radicals is on Radicals that are used for hill climbs and sprints, because Avon still make sizes that are there or thereabouts in a wider range of (soft and very soft) compounds.
From memory, the Hoosiers are even more expensive than the Dunlops and hardly anyone (does anyone at all?) this side of the pond uses them on a Radical.
For example, my recollection is that the Clubbie was originally designed / set up to run Avon crossply slicks, presumably on 6" front & 7" rear Alleycats and that the (shall we just say not particularly loved, especially the wets) Matadors were actually radials. So IF it was set to run on Matadors. it's set up to run radials. If you want radials that are PRECISELY the correct size, then I think that means Dunlops if you are going to run 7" fronts and 9" rears. Michelin make suitable (but not precisely correct) sizes if you are going to run 8" fronts and 10" rears, but my gut reaction is that these would provide too much contact/grip for the power of a Clubbie, whereby it loses some of it's delightful adjustability on the throttle? Fine on a Busa engined Prosport, but too much for a ZZR1100 engined Clubbie? Added to which, if you're really determined to start learning on brand new tyres (BTW, I go along with what BertBert said on that), the Michelins would be much the same price (perhaps more) than the Dunlops?
Nowadays, the only time one tends not to see Dunlops in profusion on Radicals is on Radicals that are used for hill climbs and sprints, because Avon still make sizes that are there or thereabouts in a wider range of (soft and very soft) compounds.
From memory, the Hoosiers are even more expensive than the Dunlops and hardly anyone (does anyone at all?) this side of the pond uses them on a Radical.
Edited by splitpin on Tuesday 5th January 07:49
I changed from matadors to michelins on my clubsport to greatly improved performance, the only problem with michelins is the only suitable tyre for the front 6" wide wheels is 160 wide which as you know is thinner than the current matadors you have. The rear 8" wheels have more scope for sizes with the michelins however.
Dunc.
Dunc.
Both myself and Rob C ran with Avon Cross Ply's but with their new kevlar construction tyre's and A22 soft compound, excellant grip from cold, £560 a set direct from Avon in Melksham 01225703101 speak to James in their motorsport section.
All you would need to do is wind off some of the camber to about 1 - 1.5 neg front and 0.5 neg rear, also rear toe in about 3mm total, Front can either toe in or out, I have mine set up to toe out at present for excellant turn in and slight understeer on the exit.
Origional Wheels are 6" F and 8" R
All you would need to do is wind off some of the camber to about 1 - 1.5 neg front and 0.5 neg rear, also rear toe in about 3mm total, Front can either toe in or out, I have mine set up to toe out at present for excellant turn in and slight understeer on the exit.
Origional Wheels are 6" F and 8" R
Edited by ScottHughes on Tuesday 5th January 11:47
dunc_sx said:
I changed from matadors to michelins on my clubsport to greatly improved performance, the only problem with michelins is the only suitable tyre for the front 6" wide wheels is 160 wide which as you know is thinner than the current matadors you have. The rear 8" wheels have more scope for sizes with the michelins however.
Dunc.
Hi DuncDunc.
The reason I said 7s & 9s (therefore 6s & 8s if one is prepared to be a shade over-tyred) were more of a problem with Michelins than 8s & 10s is this >
Radical Dunlops for the 7" fronts are 175/535R13 which when new have an o/a diameter of 539mm and a tread width of 175mm. Michelin's 16/53-13 (S210) have the equivalent dimensions of 532mm and 175mm; this seems OK to me. Note also that Michelin's 16 actually means 175mm !!!!!!!!! weird or what ..... suitable for 5.5 > 8" rims.
The conundrum with Michelins on is at the back with 9" rears: Radical Dunlops for the 9" rears are 205/570R13 which when new have an o/a diameter of 574mm and a tread width of 205mm. Michelin's 20/54-13 (S308) have the equivalent dimensions of 544mm and 195mm ..... suitable for 8 > 9" rims; their 22/54-13 (S210) have the equivalent dimensions of 545mm and 220mm ..... suitable for 8.5 > 10" rims; so one is rather in between on widths, but more significantly me thinks, well down on the diameter; this seems not ideal to me.
Negligible differences by comparison with 8" fronts and 10" rears, which is why we used them for trackdays with no problems on the SR4:
Radical Dunlops for the 8" fronts are 190/535R13 which when new have an o/a diameter of 541mm and a tread width of 190mm. As noted earlier, Michelin's 20/54-13 (S308) have the equivalent dimensions of 544mm and 195mm; this seems OK to me.
Radical Dunlops for the 10" rears are 230/570R13 which when new have an o/a diameter of 575mm and a tread width of 235mm. As noted earlier, Michelin's 23/57-13 (FR2.0 i.e. Formula Renault as their S610 are as rare as hens teeth in the UK) have the equivalent dimensions of 574mm and 235mm ..... suitable for 8.5 > 11" rims; this seems OK (indeed, effectively spot on) to me.
So all is well with said Michelins on 8s & 10s? Not really > as I understand it, the 20 (& 22) Michelins were what used to be called 'Formula BMW' which is now defunct in the UK? Certainly lightly used and fresh 20 Michelins were a job to get hold of last year, new being special order from Europe. Salvation may be in sight on that because the last I heard (months ago now), Formula Renault were looking to go to those on the front, up from 16/53-13 FR2.0 previously used on the front. That said, I think the rears were going to change to 54 somethings, so it may prove to be swings and roundabouts? Added to which (until Rob and/or one of the Marks puts me right as they may well), as a gut reaction, I'm inclined to think "8s & 10s fine on a Prosport, too much on a Clubsport".
Hi all - again answers depends on intended usage.
If racing buy what you intend to race on and set-up accordingly. Aside from the RCC, tyre choice is free so the discussion opens up a bit, as it does if the car is for track days only or something more specialist like sprints/climbs.
I’d respectfully suggest, given the nature of the query, to go with a commonly used tyre and set-up to get a good baseline from which to learn the car and then consider development options. Unless suitably experienced, you could end up chasing your tail making a less commonly used tyre (irrespective of price) work for you, or even know it is working for you, especially when there is plenty of very good advice and set-up info on here (RobC, J-P etc). I’d therefore advise against going your own way on set-up in this instance and the same for selecting away from, say, Dunlop or Avon.
Therefore to answer the specifics (apologies if answered already):
I’d bin the Matadors for the reasons given: crap and no longer available.
Typical CS rim sizes are: 6” (F) & 8”(R) for Alleycat and 7” (F) & 9” (R) for Images.
The RCC-mandated Dunlop radials for a CS are 175 (F) and 205 (R) and fit both rim sizes fine. Go with these if you’re doing the RCC. Otherwise, agreed they are pricey.
Yes, going to 8” (F) and 10” (R) is a little too much on a CS, no doubt they’d work fine, but you might get you frown from a scrutineer or fellow competitor.
Avon do both crossply and radial slicks – I only have experience of crossplys. The CS sizes I used were 7/20/13 (F) and 8.2/20/13 (R) off the top of my head (dimensions in inches). Compound wise, I can’t remember how the Axx convention works, but a nice middle compound was (I think) 7898. I can confirm at the wkd. I think Avon supplied this size/compound for a lot of CS back in the day.
Width and diameter clearly have an effect: for a given compound width clearly offers grip. Increased tyre diameter (and hence rolling radius) is going raise the gearing. Given the small increments we are talking about here, actual changes will be marginal, but be sure to check clearances to bodywork and suspension; you don’t want to be dicking around fettling stuff just to stop the tyres scuffing.
In terms of set-up, once you’ve selected a tyre, there is plenty of guidance to exact set-up, noting that the required toe and camber changes between cross-ply and radials may mean you need the shorter top wishbones to get the desired camber levels. The large camber might also mean steering track rods need changing to retain desired toe setting also.
Sorry for wordy response.
Mark.
If racing buy what you intend to race on and set-up accordingly. Aside from the RCC, tyre choice is free so the discussion opens up a bit, as it does if the car is for track days only or something more specialist like sprints/climbs.
I’d respectfully suggest, given the nature of the query, to go with a commonly used tyre and set-up to get a good baseline from which to learn the car and then consider development options. Unless suitably experienced, you could end up chasing your tail making a less commonly used tyre (irrespective of price) work for you, or even know it is working for you, especially when there is plenty of very good advice and set-up info on here (RobC, J-P etc). I’d therefore advise against going your own way on set-up in this instance and the same for selecting away from, say, Dunlop or Avon.
Therefore to answer the specifics (apologies if answered already):
I’d bin the Matadors for the reasons given: crap and no longer available.
Typical CS rim sizes are: 6” (F) & 8”(R) for Alleycat and 7” (F) & 9” (R) for Images.
The RCC-mandated Dunlop radials for a CS are 175 (F) and 205 (R) and fit both rim sizes fine. Go with these if you’re doing the RCC. Otherwise, agreed they are pricey.
Yes, going to 8” (F) and 10” (R) is a little too much on a CS, no doubt they’d work fine, but you might get you frown from a scrutineer or fellow competitor.
Avon do both crossply and radial slicks – I only have experience of crossplys. The CS sizes I used were 7/20/13 (F) and 8.2/20/13 (R) off the top of my head (dimensions in inches). Compound wise, I can’t remember how the Axx convention works, but a nice middle compound was (I think) 7898. I can confirm at the wkd. I think Avon supplied this size/compound for a lot of CS back in the day.
Width and diameter clearly have an effect: for a given compound width clearly offers grip. Increased tyre diameter (and hence rolling radius) is going raise the gearing. Given the small increments we are talking about here, actual changes will be marginal, but be sure to check clearances to bodywork and suspension; you don’t want to be dicking around fettling stuff just to stop the tyres scuffing.
In terms of set-up, once you’ve selected a tyre, there is plenty of guidance to exact set-up, noting that the required toe and camber changes between cross-ply and radials may mean you need the shorter top wishbones to get the desired camber levels. The large camber might also mean steering track rods need changing to retain desired toe setting also.
Sorry for wordy response.
Mark.
Edited by mabbott on Tuesday 5th January 13:33
Hi Mark - your response is not wordy at all - but exactly the level of detail I was looking for.
Not sure if by luck or judgement but I had independantly concluded that Avon XPly as the prime option with an open mind on Radical Supplied Dunlops as my back up plan...now getting the feeling that Dunlops may be over tired and limit the cars fun potential.
Need to find time this weekend and measure the current camber to understand what else I may / may not have to change to get the toe and camber to specification.
Not sure if by luck or judgement but I had independantly concluded that Avon XPly as the prime option with an open mind on Radical Supplied Dunlops as my back up plan...now getting the feeling that Dunlops may be over tired and limit the cars fun potential.
Need to find time this weekend and measure the current camber to understand what else I may / may not have to change to get the toe and camber to specification.
On the tyres if you go for Avon go direct to Avon Motorsport as much cheaper than there dealers, Dunlop Mr Tyre Motorsport in birmingham can get them.
When i had my clubsport only used Avon on that, prosport came on Matodors then went to Avon hugh difference, PR6 Dunlops all the way, even though dunlops and avons are both radial there is a difference in the set up needed.
If you are using the car for track days why put new rubber on it, if you are racing it new rubber is a must, as in my opinion tyres are proberley the most important thing on the car doesn't matter what set up you have fancy shocks big brakes etc etc those black things are what's in contact with the tarmac....
When i had my clubsport only used Avon on that, prosport came on Matodors then went to Avon hugh difference, PR6 Dunlops all the way, even though dunlops and avons are both radial there is a difference in the set up needed.
If you are using the car for track days why put new rubber on it, if you are racing it new rubber is a must, as in my opinion tyres are proberley the most important thing on the car doesn't matter what set up you have fancy shocks big brakes etc etc those black things are what's in contact with the tarmac....
Martin B said:
I Use the Radical Dunlops on my Clubsport and have found them to be a very good tyre. Looking on the Radical website, I made it £725 for a set (175/205s)inc vat plus postage, so are definately not £800 + a set!
Martin
Okay I assumed that VAT was to be added - but then what's fifty quid amongst friendsMartin
Perhaps understandably as they are currently up to their eyeballs building cars, Radical's Online Shop seems to be in need of a bit of refreshment. So pulling off the tyres from the SR4 and applying the new 17.5% VAT Rate (Thanks Darling), including VAT, I make a set of 175s & 205s £768.90 Delivered or £725.44 Collect.
Not sure whether Scott's figure of £560 for the Avons is the best you could get or whether or not it includes VAT and/or delivery, which I'd want to know before deciding. I know it certainly doesn't grow on trees, but it might work out that it's worth biting the extra bullet now and moving across to 7s & 9s on Dunlops; there would of course be new wider rims to be acquired, but that doesn't necessarily involve three piecers from Images; the standard 7s & 9s from the factory were until relatively recently four bolt one piece Compomotive CXRs and for sure there's quite a few out there to be picked up for a decent price. Added to which it seems to me that for trackday use, there's more likely be more decent Dunlop than Avon rubber around generally, simply because more often than not Radicals will be found running on Dunlops.
Not sure whether Scott's figure of £560 for the Avons is the best you could get or whether or not it includes VAT and/or delivery, which I'd want to know before deciding. I know it certainly doesn't grow on trees, but it might work out that it's worth biting the extra bullet now and moving across to 7s & 9s on Dunlops; there would of course be new wider rims to be acquired, but that doesn't necessarily involve three piecers from Images; the standard 7s & 9s from the factory were until relatively recently four bolt one piece Compomotive CXRs and for sure there's quite a few out there to be picked up for a decent price. Added to which it seems to me that for trackday use, there's more likely be more decent Dunlop than Avon rubber around generally, simply because more often than not Radicals will be found running on Dunlops.
superlight7 said:
Hi Mark - your response is not wordy at all - but exactly the level of detail I was looking for.
Not sure if by luck or judgement but I had independantly concluded that Avon XPly as the prime option with an open mind on Radical Supplied Dunlops as my back up plan...now getting the feeling that Dunlops may be over tired and limit the cars fun potential.
Need to find time this weekend and measure the current camber to understand what else I may / may not have to change to get the toe and camber to specification.
YHMNot sure if by luck or judgement but I had independantly concluded that Avon XPly as the prime option with an open mind on Radical Supplied Dunlops as my back up plan...now getting the feeling that Dunlops may be over tired and limit the cars fun potential.
Need to find time this weekend and measure the current camber to understand what else I may / may not have to change to get the toe and camber to specification.
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