Three Piece Wheel Integrity
Discussion
I've decided to start a new thread on this, as it's important (and hopefully it avoids a repeat of me being accused of trying to take over a thread which started on out another topic!)
I had the opportunity yesterday to meet Harry @ Image Wheels (and indeed to look at JPI's outer rim).
From what I heard, it seems these (i.e. JP's) issues have surfaced before; only on PR06s; because of a PR06's uprated stoppers (in response to it's inherent speed, then factor in higher hot PSi recommendations and even more speed from ever more powerful engines) in context of running on 13 inchers, clearances to the hot brake bits on a PR06 are tighter than on any other Radical, to the point where apparently wheel paint started bubbling and nylocks started melting and therefore loosening; added to this, so tight are the clearances on a PR06, that (unlike on other Radicals), the end of the bolt had to be essentially flush with the face of the nut whereas on say an SR3 (with it's 15 & 16 inchers) they are able to run a few threads though; when this problem was identified, the nylocks were changed to all metal tri-locs and FOC spares of the same were supplied for the nylocks on existing PR06 wheels to be changed. For whatever reason (I have no idea of it's use/ownership/acquisition history) JP's PR06 apparently escaped the corrective system somehow. Harry will ask him to check his remaining wheels and he'll be given sufficient 'all metals' when he comes into collect his wheel.
Image (rightly in my view) regard their wheels as requiring the equivalent 'spanner check' that one applies to any other part of a track vehicle with nuts and bolts; they need to be checked. They should be accurately and radially pattern torqued to 12/14ftlbs. I think that sort of information should be in the Owners Manual.
So I conclude >
If you've got a PRO6, if you've not 'spanner' checked them recently, do so, straightaway.
If you see it's got nylocks, replace them straightaway, even if they are correctly torqued.
On any other Radical with three piecers, if you've not 'spanner' checked them recently, do so, again straightaway.
If after reading this, you go out on track without spanner checking your three piece wheels, ask yourself whether you need your head examined; if it's in a PR06 and you don't still don't know that they held together with 'all metals' and correctly torqued, well ....................
Hope this helps.
Incidentally, I am well impressed with Harry/Image; properly Customer focussed; Great bloke, Great & British Company.
I had the opportunity yesterday to meet Harry @ Image Wheels (and indeed to look at JPI's outer rim).
From what I heard, it seems these (i.e. JP's) issues have surfaced before; only on PR06s; because of a PR06's uprated stoppers (in response to it's inherent speed, then factor in higher hot PSi recommendations and even more speed from ever more powerful engines) in context of running on 13 inchers, clearances to the hot brake bits on a PR06 are tighter than on any other Radical, to the point where apparently wheel paint started bubbling and nylocks started melting and therefore loosening; added to this, so tight are the clearances on a PR06, that (unlike on other Radicals), the end of the bolt had to be essentially flush with the face of the nut whereas on say an SR3 (with it's 15 & 16 inchers) they are able to run a few threads though; when this problem was identified, the nylocks were changed to all metal tri-locs and FOC spares of the same were supplied for the nylocks on existing PR06 wheels to be changed. For whatever reason (I have no idea of it's use/ownership/acquisition history) JP's PR06 apparently escaped the corrective system somehow. Harry will ask him to check his remaining wheels and he'll be given sufficient 'all metals' when he comes into collect his wheel.
Image (rightly in my view) regard their wheels as requiring the equivalent 'spanner check' that one applies to any other part of a track vehicle with nuts and bolts; they need to be checked. They should be accurately and radially pattern torqued to 12/14ftlbs. I think that sort of information should be in the Owners Manual.
So I conclude >
If you've got a PRO6, if you've not 'spanner' checked them recently, do so, straightaway.
If you see it's got nylocks, replace them straightaway, even if they are correctly torqued.
On any other Radical with three piecers, if you've not 'spanner' checked them recently, do so, again straightaway.
If after reading this, you go out on track without spanner checking your three piece wheels, ask yourself whether you need your head examined; if it's in a PR06 and you don't still don't know that they held together with 'all metals' and correctly torqued, well ....................
Hope this helps.
Incidentally, I am well impressed with Harry/Image; properly Customer focussed; Great bloke, Great & British Company.
Interesting/informative post. I'm very surprised that there is sufficient heat generated to melt the nylon in the nuts!
Porsche BBS LM rims use a similar system to hold their split rims together, and even with their massive discs (circa 380mm) 6 pot stoppers with cerametallic pads generating about 600 degree brake temps, I'm not aware of them suffering similar issues.
What's the brake ducting like on a rad? Is the heat generated literally trapped inside the wheel rim? I'm interested as I can see a PR06 being my next steed! Have you had any AP temp paints on the outside of the caliper to see what temps are being reached? Several cars run very close tolerances to between the caliper and the inside of the rim (often to the extent that balance weights foul the rim/caliper).
Porsche BBS LM rims use a similar system to hold their split rims together, and even with their massive discs (circa 380mm) 6 pot stoppers with cerametallic pads generating about 600 degree brake temps, I'm not aware of them suffering similar issues.
What's the brake ducting like on a rad? Is the heat generated literally trapped inside the wheel rim? I'm interested as I can see a PR06 being my next steed! Have you had any AP temp paints on the outside of the caliper to see what temps are being reached? Several cars run very close tolerances to between the caliper and the inside of the rim (often to the extent that balance weights foul the rim/caliper).
Sorry Splitpin but:
Maybe I'm being unfair (it wouldn't be the first time) but building and selling something with an inherent design fault isn't what I'd call impressive.
This said (and I know very little about the means by which you spec a Radical, or what one might individually do thereafter) but, if Radical offer these wheels for the PR6, I'd make them at fault.
Anyway, with my quite well known 'fastener nerd' head on, it strikes me that if there was insufficient male thread showing (a single thread height being an accepted minimum) then - as I've said before K-Nuts (which are aerospace quality and half height) are a no-brainer.
If you really have to run a multi-piece wheel (and I can't think why you would want to, if you don't) proper hardware (including K-Nuts) is available from your local friendly Trident Racing Supplies, at Silverstone.
splitpin said:
...I am well impressed with Harry/Image...
didn't you say that Image's wheels fell apart because they forgot that racing cars get faster and brakes get very hot?Maybe I'm being unfair (it wouldn't be the first time) but building and selling something with an inherent design fault isn't what I'd call impressive.
This said (and I know very little about the means by which you spec a Radical, or what one might individually do thereafter) but, if Radical offer these wheels for the PR6, I'd make them at fault.
Anyway, with my quite well known 'fastener nerd' head on, it strikes me that if there was insufficient male thread showing (a single thread height being an accepted minimum) then - as I've said before K-Nuts (which are aerospace quality and half height) are a no-brainer.
If you really have to run a multi-piece wheel (and I can't think why you would want to, if you don't) proper hardware (including K-Nuts) is available from your local friendly Trident Racing Supplies, at Silverstone.
Count Johnny said:
Sorry Splitpin but:
Maybe I'm being unfair (it wouldn't be the first time) but building and selling something with an inherent design fault isn't what I'd call impressive.
This said (and I know very little about the means by which you spec a Radical, or what one might individually do thereafter) but, if Radical offer these wheels for the PR6, I'd make them at fault.
Anyway, with my quite well known 'fastener nerd' head on, it strikes me that if there was insufficient male thread showing (a single thread height being an accepted minimum) then - as I've said before K-Nuts (which are aerospace quality and half height) are a no-brainer.
If you really have to run a multi-piece wheel (and I can't think why you would want to, if you don't) proper hardware (including K-Nuts) is available from your local friendly Trident Racing Supplies, at Silverstone.
Nice of you to start with trying to shoot the messenger: I didn't say that. I agreed with what you said about all metals (including K-Nuts) and I still believe that to be the case. Heaven help the poor S who disagrees with you. splitpin said:
...I am well impressed with Harry/Image...
didn't you say that Image's wheels fell apart because they forgot that racing cars get faster and brakes get very hot?Maybe I'm being unfair (it wouldn't be the first time) but building and selling something with an inherent design fault isn't what I'd call impressive.
This said (and I know very little about the means by which you spec a Radical, or what one might individually do thereafter) but, if Radical offer these wheels for the PR6, I'd make them at fault.
Anyway, with my quite well known 'fastener nerd' head on, it strikes me that if there was insufficient male thread showing (a single thread height being an accepted minimum) then - as I've said before K-Nuts (which are aerospace quality and half height) are a no-brainer.
If you really have to run a multi-piece wheel (and I can't think why you would want to, if you don't) proper hardware (including K-Nuts) is available from your local friendly Trident Racing Supplies, at Silverstone.
That said, as I have made 100% clear, the problem is essentially confined to earlier PR06s, most likely those produced in 2007 / early 2008 as far as I can make out. I have no intention of relaying everything I heard from several sources, but I do not think it was Image's fault and nor do I think it was Radical's fault; there was some meaningful post introduction design evolution on the PR06 (that's why Radical are miles ahead of the rest as the UK's No1 specialist trackcar manufacturer) and it had an effect on associated components; just like it happens in F1 with all their £ms of development budget.
My concern is that there was apparently at least one PR06 still out there on Nylocks, so let's get that sorted and make it none as it should have been months and months ago and to take the opportunity to remind that each and every three-piecer needs it bolts checking on a regular basis. And yes, if I had three piecers on my SR4 and in the process of checking them found nylocks there, I'd change them.
Like you, I am a right nerd when it comes to that sort of stuff and boy is that a pain and a bore for everyone else.
Fergus, as this is a specific post-event corrective issue that has long since been sorted spec-wise by Radical and Image , if you'd bear with me, I'd rather we didn't go on too much of a technical tangent on this particular post which is aimed at people checking and fettling their cars to make sure it is 100% done and dusted and that their cars are ready to tear up the track in a highly competitive environment, probably as early as this weekend coming.
All I would say is that if you're minded towards buying a single seat enclosed wheel open top bike engined track car that is second to none in every area of performance, without any hesitation whatsoever, I say go buy yourself a PR06, pre-owned or new. In out and out performance terms and per £, IMHO, this is the finest Radical ever, which is saying something as Radical have never made a lemon, indeed, they've given us all a bowl full of peaches.
All I would say is that if you're minded towards buying a single seat enclosed wheel open top bike engined track car that is second to none in every area of performance, without any hesitation whatsoever, I say go buy yourself a PR06, pre-owned or new. In out and out performance terms and per £, IMHO, this is the finest Radical ever, which is saying something as Radical have never made a lemon, indeed, they've given us all a bowl full of peaches.
Edited by splitpin on Thursday 10th September 20:12
Edited by splitpin on Thursday 10th September 20:12
fergus said:
What sort of budget should I being considering for a PR06 of each vintage, and is there anything in the spec that should be a 'must have'? Likewise, what are is the consensus opinion on 'nice to have' parts/spec? Many thanks.
Edited by fergus on Thursday 10th September 22:20
thanks for the info i have a early 08 PR6 with floating disks and i will be checking my front wheels
its a very good thread its informative and provides a solution just what we need on this forum. All racing cars are work in progress and no one is to blame. through JP unfortunate experience we all will have safer racing cars, when you push the envelope sometimes it breaks, wouldnt have it any other way.
fergus My PRO6 is 1500 floating disks,paddle shift,tripple adj shockers,stack data logger, it is Fxxxxxg fast i understand that it was well north of £44,000 when new hope that helps
its a very good thread its informative and provides a solution just what we need on this forum. All racing cars are work in progress and no one is to blame. through JP unfortunate experience we all will have safer racing cars, when you push the envelope sometimes it breaks, wouldnt have it any other way.
fergus My PRO6 is 1500 floating disks,paddle shift,tripple adj shockers,stack data logger, it is Fxxxxxg fast i understand that it was well north of £44,000 when new hope that helps
Oh C’mon
Sorry (again) but I know this a Radical forum; and I know Splitpin and Willbee are founders of the Radical Owners’ club; and I know I haven’t got a Radical [and I fully expect to be tarred and feathered for what I’m about to say] but are we really kidding ourselves that a PR6 is:
or this:
West
or, indeed, (blimey I've just had a trouser accident) this:
Yes, I know the PR6 has achieved considerable success over here - and thanks to a lot of monkey see, monkey do, it’s become the car to have in the Club Cup - and I know Radical have sold a lot of units, but only the blind could claim that (like most of the range) the PR6 is much more than a fancy kit car.
Sorry (again) but I know this a Radical forum; and I know Splitpin and Willbee are founders of the Radical Owners’ club; and I know I haven’t got a Radical [and I fully expect to be tarred and feathered for what I’m about to say] but are we really kidding ourselves that a PR6 is:
splitpin said:
...a single seat enclosed wheel open top bike engined track car that is second to none in every area of performance...
Erm, that would be except for this:
or this:
West
or, indeed, (blimey I've just had a trouser accident) this:
Yes, I know the PR6 has achieved considerable success over here - and thanks to a lot of monkey see, monkey do, it’s become the car to have in the Club Cup - and I know Radical have sold a lot of units, but only the blind could claim that (like most of the range) the PR6 is much more than a fancy kit car.
Edited by Count Johnny on Friday 11th September 11:02
Count Johnny said:
only the blind could claim that (like most of the range) the PR6 is much more than a fancy kit car.
Does that also make Jade, Juno, Nemesis, etc. kit cars? Where do you draw the line?! Are you advocating that unless something has a monocoque chassis it is a 'kit car' (which by definition all cars are in a way!)Unlike a your Speads which is just a bag of bits eh! Cmon mate I know that having your car in the Garage all season is frustrating, but you really are not endearing yourself or by association BESCR to the the Radical owners out here. At least Radical, and Radical owners are getting out and racing!
Gary
fergus said:
Does that also make Jade, Juno, Nemesis, etc. kit cars? Where do you draw the line?! Are you advocating that unless something has a monocoque chassis it is a 'kit car' (which by definition all cars are in a way!)
Hi FergusNot at all - although the Nemesis is a nearly fifteen year old design, now, so is pretty dated.
None of the exampled cars, above, have monocoque chassis. The top one (my Speads RS06) is available in 2008 form for about £18k (as a ‘kit’) and – like the other examples – is a tubular spaceframe. All are motorcycle engine powered.
I was merely pointing out that the PR6 is, actually, a pretty agricultural design (with it's Caterham like suspension and plethora of Ford parts) which does not represent the zenith of motorcycle engined central driving position sports racing car design.
I think that's fair.
gaxor said:
some stuff about my Speads, BESCR and Radical
Ah, Mr Ramsdale.And so the tarring and feathering begins.
As above to Fergus, I was merely trying to inject a little reality into what was turning into Radical/PR6 love in - not cast doubt upon anyone’s parentage or sexuality for owning one.
As I said, it’s achieved a lot of success – and as you’ve kindly pointed out, even the slowest PR6 is a lot quicker than my chassis stand bound Speads, this year.
However, as you well know, my views hardly ever reflect those of ‘the management’ so, if I’ve offended anyone from whom I’d like to take cash; fill full of BESCR food and booze; and race with I (while standing by what I’ve said) apologise.
Count Johnny said:
gaxor said:
some stuff about my Speads, BESCR and Radical
Ah, Mr Ramsdale.And so the tarring and feathering begins.
As above to Fergus, I was merely trying to inject a little reality into what was turning into Radical/PR6 love in - not cast doubt upon anyone’s parentage or sexuality for owning one.
This IS a Radical forum not a bike engined forum - (is there a bike engined forum? oh yes I remember, its a bit quiet in there) and as such is entitled to be a Radical love in as you so put it. As no other manufacturer is offering or supporting their marque in the same committed way, I think it does show that they have a point. Yes other racing cars offer a technically more sophisticated solution, but not so much in the UK, and not with the technical support that Radical can offer. They had the commercial savvy to see a successful business model (fast affordable well supported cars, with as a consequence a solid revenue stream from spares and racing). Their successful business equals more cars, equals more participants equals more success, equals more cars .....
Go figure as they say
Gary
Spot on Gary.
Yes, it is the RADICAL Forum.
I too am tired of that constant sniping which comes across in virtually every post (e.g "monkey see, monkey do"); there seems to be a bit of a genuinely rude and nasty attitude that's in no way conversant with this friendly RADICAL Forum, even more so someone promoting/being an ambassador for the best interests of BESCR, especially when a lot of that promoting seems to be done via this RADICAL Forum. There's a near constant tone suggesting that most everyone who likes or has anything to do with Radicals (including Radical themselves) is essentially an idiot and/or a charlatan and/or a thief.
So fellow Radical Owners, as their ambassador clearly thinks we are all idiots driving an inferior car made by villains, let's all form an orderly queue to sign up for BESCR 2010. Afterall, everyone's conspiring against them apparently; they're perfect, everyone else running a series for bike-engined sportcars is an idiot and/or rip-off merchant.
How To Lose Friends & Customers?
Two Thoughts : Start a Speads Forum ? >
: Become Head of Marketing/Customer Relations at BESCR >
Yes, it is the RADICAL Forum.
I too am tired of that constant sniping which comes across in virtually every post (e.g "monkey see, monkey do"); there seems to be a bit of a genuinely rude and nasty attitude that's in no way conversant with this friendly RADICAL Forum, even more so someone promoting/being an ambassador for the best interests of BESCR, especially when a lot of that promoting seems to be done via this RADICAL Forum. There's a near constant tone suggesting that most everyone who likes or has anything to do with Radicals (including Radical themselves) is essentially an idiot and/or a charlatan and/or a thief.
So fellow Radical Owners, as their ambassador clearly thinks we are all idiots driving an inferior car made by villains, let's all form an orderly queue to sign up for BESCR 2010. Afterall, everyone's conspiring against them apparently; they're perfect, everyone else running a series for bike-engined sportcars is an idiot and/or rip-off merchant.
How To Lose Friends & Customers?
Two Thoughts : Start a Speads Forum ? >
: Become Head of Marketing/Customer Relations at BESCR > Hello girls......( sorry Rachel )
Bickering about who's got the best car.....
Just get in whatever you 've got , and race it on the track...
As for budget/choice of PR6 /what car ?
A small engined PR6 with a good ( OLD ) driver ( ask Hamlet ) can go as fast if not faster then a slightly younger bloke ( only just ) in a 1500.......( and thats me if in any doubt )
Budget....spend as much as you can afford...if you can afford all the bits up front then do it.....if you are either on a limited budget or feel that you want to add to the spec as you gain expereinece then go cheaper and add to the car as you go along......
Cheers
David# 91
Fat Old Bloke...
Bickering about who's got the best car.....
Just get in whatever you 've got , and race it on the track...
As for budget/choice of PR6 /what car ?
A small engined PR6 with a good ( OLD ) driver ( ask Hamlet ) can go as fast if not faster then a slightly younger bloke ( only just ) in a 1500.......( and thats me if in any doubt )
Budget....spend as much as you can afford...if you can afford all the bits up front then do it.....if you are either on a limited budget or feel that you want to add to the spec as you gain expereinece then go cheaper and add to the car as you go along......
Cheers
David# 91
Fat Old Bloke...
double d racing said:
As for budget/choice of PR6 /what car ?
A small engined PR6 with a good ( OLD ) driver ( ask Hamlet ) can go as fast if not faster then a slightly younger bloke ( only just ) in a 1500.......( and thats me if in any doubt )
Budget....spend as much as you can afford...if you can afford all the bits up front then do it.....if you are either on a limited budget or feel that you want to add to the spec as you gain expereinece then go cheaper and add to the car as you go along......
David, thanks. I've not seen any PR06s for sale at all. What should I expect to see 07 or 08 cars starting at for a 'base' spec? What would you expect a well specified car to go for (ball park figures, of course). Many thanks.A small engined PR6 with a good ( OLD ) driver ( ask Hamlet ) can go as fast if not faster then a slightly younger bloke ( only just ) in a 1500.......( and thats me if in any doubt )
Budget....spend as much as you can afford...if you can afford all the bits up front then do it.....if you are either on a limited budget or feel that you want to add to the spec as you gain expereinece then go cheaper and add to the car as you go along......
Gassing Station | Radical | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff