Clubsport rough running - help please

[GeoffW]

Hello folks

I extracted my ZZR1100 engined CS from hibernation today, and spent the day doing general spanner checks and some bodywork stuff, ready for Coombe on BH Monday (two days time!).

Anyway, one of the jobs on my list was to replace the alternator/generator, which I did. I'm not sure whether there's a better way to do it, but I ended up removing half of the exhaust & manifold in order to get at the alternator. The swap seemed to go ok and the Rad started easily afterwards but generally sounds rough and won't idle, sometimes it will keep going for 30 seconds and other times it will die after 2 seconds. If I keep the revs up a little it keeps running but sounds rougher than usual.

Other things I did in the meantime were to drain the old fuel (via a T piece between the pump and carbs) and put fresh fuel in. Also the original battery was flat so I charged it up a bit and got it going with a booster battery attached. I don't think I fiddled with anything else, but it's definitely not beyond the bounds of possibiliy.

Have I missed something along the way or what else could be the cause? Suggestions welcome, thanks Geoff

[Simon T]

Hi,

Give it a full spanner check, every nut and bolt
Check the brakes dont bind, give em a few good pushes then check they dont stick.
Check the fluid levels in the reservoirs.
Check the throttle return springs.
Check the tyres for splits and cracks.
Repack your silencer - Combe is a killer for noise

Or if I read the post properly... It would be worth stripping the carbs aqnd blowing out all the jets with an air line then renewing the fuel filter.

See you there, come around for a cup of tea

Simon

www.tillingmotorsport.com

Edited by Simon T on Saturday 29th August 20:11

[Martin B]

Geoff, are you sure it was the generator at fault? There is a relay near the battery master switch which controls the generator, if this isn't working properly it stops the generator from charging. It happened to mine last year. What volts do you read across the battery when the engine is running? should be around 14V if the generator etc is working properly.

Martin

[peter.brown]

put a new set of plugs in check wiring to coils

[splitpin]

peter.brown said:

put a new set of plugs in check wiring to coils

Reminds me ........... met a CC top runner yesterday ............ be aware there are apparently some defective CR9EBs about out there .......... personally saw a brand new unfired plug that had sheared off where the thread meets the body upon fitment; they managed to get it out using an easy out. Four other recent instances known apparently.

And no, it wasn't overtightened, like I say, very well known CC top runner and he and his team do their own maintenance and he is/they are very particular.

[GeoffW]

Simon T said:

Hi,or if I read the post properly... It would be worth stripping the carbs and blowing out all the jets with an air line then renewing the fuel filter.

That sounds like a distinct possibility, I could easily have disturbed some sediment/dirt when I drained the tank.

Martin B said:

Geoff, are you sure it was the generator at fault? There is a relay near the battery master switch which controls the generator, if this isn't working properly it stops the generator from charging. It happened to mine last year. What volts do you read across the battery when the engine is running? should be around 14V if the generator etc is working properly.Martin

No, not absolutely sure. I will check the voltage. Does the generator work all the time (as in, from idle) or does it require a certain amount of revs (or something else?) before it kicks in?

peter.brown said:

put a new set of plugs in check wiring to coils

splitpin said:

Reminds me .. met a CC top runner yesterday ..be aware there are apparently some defective CR9EBs about out there .......... personally saw a brand new unfired plug that had sheared off where the thread meets the body upon fitment; they managed to get it out using an easy out. Four other recent instances known apparently. And no, it wasn't overtightened, like I say, very well known CC top runner and he and his team do their own maintenance and he is/they are very particular.

The plugs have not been replaced so that should rule them out - although I did gently wire brush them (with a soft brass brush) so perhaps I should try another set? Then again, I don't have another set and I guess only Halfords will be open tmrw (Sunday).

Having read all the suggestions, I feel the most likely culprit is dirt in the carbs/jets. I've never stripped any flat side carbs before but there's a first time for everything. Will give that a whirl in the morning. Feel free to post up any tips or watchouts. If that fails, I'll to get hold of another set of plugs. Either way I'll report back on progress on here, thanks all, cheers Geoff

Edited by GeoffW on Saturday 29th August 23:46

[Simon T]

Hi, Check the voltage across the battery, if it's over 13v your generator is OK, if not check the in line fuse, if that's OK work back to the relay, voltage regulator. If you've got another battery try that, a low bat will give you all kinds of missfire issues

I'll be at Combe from about 4pm today, give me a shout if your there and need help
Cheers

Simon

[GeoffW]

Bad news, cleaned the carbs, plumbed in a new fuel filter and fixed a bit more bodywork (unrelated I know but it took some time).

And... now the Rad won't start or fire at all now, I can whirr it on the starter and then I get a nice loud backfire BANG (my neighbours love it on a Sunday!!!) after about 5 seconds.

I'm giving up for today, gonna watch the Spa GP then the 20/20 cricket on Sky+ and aim to improve my general well being with a large glass or four of red wine. As I always say - cheers! Geoff

[splitpin]

Sorry to hear that ..........

If it's any consolation, I have not had a great day myself ......... I was going to spend a happy day fettling the Rad, but the dishwasher decided to flood the kitchen floor first thing. What a mess, hours and hours mopping up and rather than just launching the beggar towards the skip (boy, did it come close) I decided to see whether I could find the problem. After a serious extent of dismantling, I did (!) and tomorrow I'll waste a few more hours trying to find the part (on a Bank Holiday) and if I do, trying to put the thing back together. Happy days indeed.

It's a long time since I worked on carbs, but I recollect that some used to need re-priming after being drained/dismantled .......... assuming not a 'button prime' like on old SUs etc, may be turn the engine over for a bit with no throttle and the leads disconnected, then hook up and try again?

[barryv12]

hi guys i had the same problem. check carbs mine had water laying in the bottom of them make sure they are super clean especialy if it has been laid up as condensation is sure to have occurred.....i its any help i have used zzr generator cheap!!

[GeoffW]

barryv12 said:

hi guys i had the same problem. check carbs mine had water laying in the bottom of them make sure they are super clean especialy if it has been laid up as condensation is sure to have occurred.....i its any help i have used zzr generator cheap!!

I've already cleaned up the carbs (removed the big nut at the base which allowed half a small cup of petrol out and then unscrewed the jets and blew them through - hope this is right?, I also removed the needles via the top cap and they looked straight and reasonably clean). I've already changed the generator so unless the replacement is duff, that should be ok.

splitpin said:

Sorry to hear that ..........

If it's any consolation, I have not had a great day myself ......... I was going to spend a happy day fettling the Rad, but the dishwasher decided to flood the kitchen floor first thing. What a mess, hours and hours mopping up and rather than just launching the beggar towards the skip (boy, did it come close) I decided to see whether I could find the problem. After a serious extent of dismantling, I did (!) and tomorrow I'll waste a few more hours trying to find the part (on a Bank Holiday) and if I do, trying to put the thing back together. Happy days indeed.

It's a long time since I worked on carbs, but I recollect that some used to need re-priming after being drained/dismantled .......... assuming not a 'button prime' like on old SUs etc, may be turn the engine over for a bit with no throttle and the leads disconnected, then hook up and try again?

Happy days, yeah, sorry to hear your woes. Tried the priming, I also took the plugs out altogether for half an hour in case it was flooded. Still the same result as my previous post, turns over but doesn't start and then it backfires BANG!! loudly after about 5 seconds.

Just to recap. The engine was running fine. I changed the generator as the previous one wasn't charging the battery (although I now know it could have been something else). After this, the engine started and ran, but roughly and it won't idle, stalling if I let the revs drop. Next, I drained the old fuel and put in fresh fuel, cleaned the carbs, fitted a new fuel filter, and now it won't start. Any suggestions please? I have considered driving it into the nearby lake so you can rule that one out. Today will be the first day of racing I've missed this season, grrrr.

Edited by GeoffW on Monday 31st August 10:57

[tprocket]

Hi Geoff,

Have you checked the screw on terminals on the top of the spark plugs?
One of ours worked loose and caused a misfire.

Also - check the wires going to the left and right coils - ours were a bit fragile.

Good luck

[GeoffW]

tprocket said:

Hi Geoff, Have you checked the screw on terminals on the top of the spark plugs? One of ours worked loose and caused a misfire. Also - check the wires going to the left and right coils - ours were a bit fragile.
Good luck

Will do, going down to Coombe now - as a spectator with a £200 entry ticket...

Should have mentioned I have a spare complete engine so I can try swapping things over relatively easily if that helps with the suggestions.

[stiglet]

GeoffW said:

If that fails, I'll to get hold of another set of plugs.

Geoff

Apologies if I've missed it but did you try a new set?

I had exactly the same symptoms after the winter layup.

It ran for a few seconds then backfired and refused to start again.

I traced it to dirty/watery fuel which, by the time it had cleared, had fouled/flooded the plugs so badly that even dried and cleaned, I couldn't get a decent spark from them.

A gallon of super unleaded and twenty quids worth of CR9s turned an otherwise dead Radical into one that ran/runs like a dream

Good luck

JP

[GeoffW]

stiglet said:

GeoffW said:

If that fails, I'll to get hold of another set of plugs.

Geoff
Apologies if I've missed it but did you try a new set?
I had exactly the same symptoms after the winter layup.
It ran for a few seconds then backfired and refused to start again.
I traced it to dirty/watery fuel which, by the time it had cleared, had fouled/flooded the plugs so badly that even dried and cleaned, I couldn't get a decent spark from them. A gallon of super unleaded and twenty quids worth of CR9s turned an otherwise dead Radical into one that ran/runs like a dream
Good luck JP

Sounds like the same symptons so fingers crossed. Will order some new plugs tonight and await Mr Postman. The ones I've removed are NGK "R" CR9EB which sound correct per your description. cheers Geoff

[splitpin]

Tim rightly suggested looking out for loose plug screw tops, but if they were EB suffixed, that can't be it because as I understand it, the B means they've got fixed (non-screwed) tops. If you've got the old wobbly connector plug leads (they look a bit like a pontefract cake), that may be part of the problem, maybe coupled with a battery that has seen better days? Proper sit in capped Magnecors are the way to go, presuming they make 'em for the Kwacker. I'd check the quality of the spark before actually fitting the new plugs and trying to start up.

[double d racing]

As you know I'm not a technical expert but here are problems we've recently seen...
1. Misfire/low power under throttle - this was blamed on the carbs but was eventually found to be one of the coils had packed up...
2. Misfire blamed on all sorts of software problems - found to be the electrode had been knocked on one plug ( brand new set ) as it had been inserted.
3 New fuel put in tank but is new fuel getting all the way thorugh i.e no old stuff still clogging it up ?
Hopefully this is all too late and you've solved it by now..
Good luck david

[GeoffW]

New plugs arrived this morning but won't get a chance to try them until tonight or more likely tomorrow, Saturday. Update to follow.

[P.T.]

Had a very similar problem with my prev. Prosport. For some reason if you drained the carbs. you had to prime them by taking them off the inlet & holding/resting them upside down, then turning on the ign. & fuel pump. You could then re-fit on the inlet & start as normal. Not sure how common it was but Karl at Extreme Engines knew exactly what the problem was when I phoned him at 11 at night befor a race meeting!

[GeoffW]

Blimey, another thing to add to the "try this" list. But a Prosport would have a 'busa engine wouldn't it, whereas I run a ZZR1100. Or do they share the same carbs (Kehin flatsides)?