How was croft?
Discussion
I did the clubman races, i had two good races, just need a 1585 motor now to be at the front!! strange one in the second race crossed the finish line in 5th place slowed down then felt like i had picked up a puncture stopped got out and the rear left wheel had fallen apart all the bolts that hold the 3 piece wheel together had fallen out.
I'm very lucky..
I'm very lucky..
Very lucky there JP (or unlucky to have such a odd failure...be interesting to hear what the wheel manufactures say)
Mark - results here http://www.tsl-timing.com/barc/2009/93422.pdf
Mark - results here http://www.tsl-timing.com/barc/2009/93422.pdf
ST may (or may not) have been joking but I share his concern !
JP: You said "all the bolts that hold the 3 piece wheel together had fallen out."
Literally ALL of them? All 18 of them? Just fallen out, not some of them 'sheared off'? Even if the bolts had all gone (the incident alone should have instigated the track officials coming to have a look and the debris should have instigated a track inspection), you'd see residual evidence of that 'shearing off'.
I find it extraordinary; you were bloody lucky not to have a huge and perhaps catastrophic accident, very possibly involving others. Post event, I would expect Radical themselves to take the lead in looking in to this with the highest priority; did you inform them? If I were them, I'd want to know precisely how and why and what needs to be done before I let ANY Radicals back out on track on those wheels in any race series being held under my name.
And to answer Chris's question, with the exception of cars that run extreme negative offsets on width that can render single piecers impossible, three piece wheels are made entirely for the wheel manufacturers benefit; far fewer different 'moulds' need to be made to produce a whole host of offsets; potentially a Customer can benefit from this feature, but how many do? When was the last time a Radical Owner played around with/changed his/her offsets to optimise set up? Let's be in no doubt about this; the strongest wheel format of all is a well designed and well made single piece wheel, three piece wheels are way weaker. Radical utilise their 'own' wheels on their latest new product ............ guess how many pieces?
JP: You said "all the bolts that hold the 3 piece wheel together had fallen out."
Literally ALL of them? All 18 of them? Just fallen out, not some of them 'sheared off'? Even if the bolts had all gone (the incident alone should have instigated the track officials coming to have a look and the debris should have instigated a track inspection), you'd see residual evidence of that 'shearing off'.
I find it extraordinary; you were bloody lucky not to have a huge and perhaps catastrophic accident, very possibly involving others. Post event, I would expect Radical themselves to take the lead in looking in to this with the highest priority; did you inform them? If I were them, I'd want to know precisely how and why and what needs to be done before I let ANY Radicals back out on track on those wheels in any race series being held under my name.
And to answer Chris's question, with the exception of cars that run extreme negative offsets on width that can render single piecers impossible, three piece wheels are made entirely for the wheel manufacturers benefit; far fewer different 'moulds' need to be made to produce a whole host of offsets; potentially a Customer can benefit from this feature, but how many do? When was the last time a Radical Owner played around with/changed his/her offsets to optimise set up? Let's be in no doubt about this; the strongest wheel format of all is a well designed and well made single piece wheel, three piece wheels are way weaker. Radical utilise their 'own' wheels on their latest new product ............ guess how many pieces?
Edited by splitpin on Monday 24th August 13:08
Steady on Split pin old chap, If you are not careful the FAA will become involved and we'll all be grounded!
Re Radical taking ownership; I dont' think its anything to do with them, the wheel was made by Image? not Radical, they may not have supplied it either. The wheel could have been rebuilt by anyone, with incorrect spec bolts, not torque'd up correctly etc
We all accept the risks of the sport by the very fact that we take part, it's up to each of us to look after our own equipment and make sure it's OK. My guess is that it will either of been a catastrophic component failure - bolts shearing, a previous impact or the centre section fracturing (This used to happen sometimes on the old style SR3 'tuning fork' cetres. SR8 versions are milled from a thicker billet) or a gradual loosening of the bolts, I admit still an exceptional occurence.
Re Cast v multi piece rims; For OEMs Cost and availability in volume are also key factors deciding choice of components...
Cast rims are typically lower cost, heavier (Mag excepted) and whilst stronger are more brittle. Multi piece rims are lighter and liable to bend rather than break, whilst the initial cost is higher they are repairable - useful in the close racing environment of a UK or Club cup race
Douglas Adams sum'd it up rather well
Simon
Re Radical taking ownership; I dont' think its anything to do with them, the wheel was made by Image? not Radical, they may not have supplied it either. The wheel could have been rebuilt by anyone, with incorrect spec bolts, not torque'd up correctly etc
We all accept the risks of the sport by the very fact that we take part, it's up to each of us to look after our own equipment and make sure it's OK. My guess is that it will either of been a catastrophic component failure - bolts shearing, a previous impact or the centre section fracturing (This used to happen sometimes on the old style SR3 'tuning fork' cetres. SR8 versions are milled from a thicker billet) or a gradual loosening of the bolts, I admit still an exceptional occurence.
Re Cast v multi piece rims; For OEMs Cost and availability in volume are also key factors deciding choice of components...
Cast rims are typically lower cost, heavier (Mag excepted) and whilst stronger are more brittle. Multi piece rims are lighter and liable to bend rather than break, whilst the initial cost is higher they are repairable - useful in the close racing environment of a UK or Club cup race
Douglas Adams sum'd it up rather well
Simon
Edited by Simon T on Tuesday 25th August 06:33
I stand by what I said about Radical showing some authorative leadership in this, in fact, I don't think they really have a choice; if at the next RADICAL Club Championship Event exactly the same thing happened (life is full of strange co-incidences), perhaps this time with catastrophic consequences, I'm in no doubt that someone somewhere (and probably sooner rather than later) would be asking them what steps they had taken.
Like you said, this is an exceptional occurence, so much so IMHO that it should not be/can't be left as a matter of guessing. Fair enough that people should look after their kit, but few of us have the dubious benefit of wearing their underpants on the outside (and having x-ray vision)
That three piece wheels are repairable (by effectively amateurs) may ultimately prove to be a bad thing in reality?
Edited by splitpin on Tuesday 25th August 10:34
The fact is that ‘Nyloks’ have no place as critical fasteners where proper heat is an issue.
Unfortunately, it is also a fact is that most manufacturers don’t fit K-Nuts (silver plated K-Nuts, for brake rotor fasteners) because they are quite expensive.
Added to the expense of the fastener itself, it is also a fact that – because it is also a ‘half height’ fastener exposing lots of lovely millimeters that can be shaved from each bolt - they also prompt expensive bolt shortening.
A K-Nut is ridiculously light, a funny spanner size and – if you don’t want to spend an extra couple of ‘large’ on the best female fasteners, and spend ages trimming material from the partnering male fasteners – a complete pain in the a*se.
They are also – if you’re serious about engineering real racing cars – a no brainer.
Turning to JP’s (the other one’s) wheel issues. Multi-part wheels are heavy options and every single fastener that holds your wheels together should be treated as a potential catastrophic failure. This said, I can’t imagine that transferred heat is the issue.
Basicallly, use one piece wheels or – if you can’t – hold them together with (proper) MilSpec bolts; ground MilSpec washers; and K-Nuts which are marked with inspectors' lacquer.
Never mind Radical. They exist to deliver cars to a budget.
C ‘Johnny’ S
Unfortunately, it is also a fact is that most manufacturers don’t fit K-Nuts (silver plated K-Nuts, for brake rotor fasteners) because they are quite expensive.
Added to the expense of the fastener itself, it is also a fact that – because it is also a ‘half height’ fastener exposing lots of lovely millimeters that can be shaved from each bolt - they also prompt expensive bolt shortening.
A K-Nut is ridiculously light, a funny spanner size and – if you don’t want to spend an extra couple of ‘large’ on the best female fasteners, and spend ages trimming material from the partnering male fasteners – a complete pain in the a*se.
They are also – if you’re serious about engineering real racing cars – a no brainer.
Turning to JP’s (the other one’s) wheel issues. Multi-part wheels are heavy options and every single fastener that holds your wheels together should be treated as a potential catastrophic failure. This said, I can’t imagine that transferred heat is the issue.
Basicallly, use one piece wheels or – if you can’t – hold them together with (proper) MilSpec bolts; ground MilSpec washers; and K-Nuts which are marked with inspectors' lacquer.
Never mind Radical. They exist to deliver cars to a budget.
C ‘Johnny’ S
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