Racing Radicals - Powertec Engine Seals?
Discussion
If I were to race in the Radical clubmans cup, is it necessary to have a powertec engine seal in place? Is this part of the regs? Will it be checked during scrutineering?
Are there any championships where use of a Powertec built engine is compulsary?
Other than Combe, which circuits do the radical guys tend to favour? I know the Special GTs is very well attended by Radicalisti!
Many thanks
Are there any championships where use of a Powertec built engine is compulsary?
Other than Combe, which circuits do the radical guys tend to favour? I know the Special GTs is very well attended by Radicalisti!
Many thanks
Fergus,
It is a stated requirement to have the engine run on the Powertec dyno & then sealed to compete in any of the Radical own branded race series. I have not noticed any one actually checking the seals myself, but they do from time to time seal cars & have the scrutineers check them over so its a must!
Its is not compulsory to have a Powertec built engine (at the moment) but it is strongly encouraged for obvious reasons!
The cars are pretty competitive at all circuits to be honest, but if an open class race up against the big engined Jades / Juno's etc the tighter the circuit the better off you will be, or pray for rain!
Radical cup race's this year are at Rockingham / Brands / Donnington / Castle Combe / Croft / Snetterton.
You can usually find a suitable class to race one at most circuits in the country in other championships.
It is a stated requirement to have the engine run on the Powertec dyno & then sealed to compete in any of the Radical own branded race series. I have not noticed any one actually checking the seals myself, but they do from time to time seal cars & have the scrutineers check them over so its a must!
Its is not compulsory to have a Powertec built engine (at the moment) but it is strongly encouraged for obvious reasons!
The cars are pretty competitive at all circuits to be honest, but if an open class race up against the big engined Jades / Juno's etc the tighter the circuit the better off you will be, or pray for rain!
Radical cup race's this year are at Rockingham / Brands / Donnington / Castle Combe / Croft / Snetterton.
You can usually find a suitable class to race one at most circuits in the country in other championships.
Edited by dsl2 on Monday 3rd August 13:43
dsl2 said:
It is a stated requirement to have the engine run on the Powertec dyno & then sealed to compete in any of the Radical own branded race series. I have not noticed any one actually checking the seals myself, but they do from time to time seal cars & have the scrutineers check them over so its a must!
Its is not compulsory to have a Powertec built engine (at the moment) but it is strongly encouraged for obvious reasons!
Thks for the reply. What does a dyno run on Powertec's dyno cost? I'm not sure why it's obvious to have a Powertec built engine? Could you elaborate?Its is not compulsory to have a Powertec built engine (at the moment) but it is strongly encouraged for obvious reasons!
DaveK-S1 said:
Powertec although a seperate company is basically Radical's engine division, so as such it's more money in the pot if you get the radical/powertec combo, rather than sourcing your own engine.
DaveCheers. Was aware of that. However, I can get an engine built to the same spec, but probably more bomb proof & a lot cheaper than PT can do it!
The development of engine ( powertec) and Radical chassis go hand in hand and they are in the same builiding, so they talk to each other constantly. Any issues on either side can be easily cross referred. If you have your own engine then you may have to do all the fault finding yourself. At each Radical championship round there are both Radical and Powertec guys to help and support ( that doesn't mean they'll strip your engine down for you though ! )
David
David
double d racing said:
The development of engine ( powertec) and Radical chassis go hand in hand and they are in the same builiding, so they talk to each other constantly. Any issues on either side can be easily cross referred. If you have your own engine then you may have to do all the fault finding yourself. At each Radical championship round there are both Radical and Powertec guys to help and support ( that doesn't mean they'll strip your engine down for you though ! )
David
Surely an engine is just an engine? As long as my unit is in a similar state of tune to a Powertec unit, how does it matter who built it? Given that there are multiple variants of the busa engine in various states of tune in what are essentially non factory supported chassis, that may all be the same, perhaps makes your statement a moot point?David
As you stated, fault finding is one thing (which you don't necesserily need PowerTec to do), but fixing it is another!! I'm fairly experienced with tuned bike engines, so have an ear as to what can go wrong with them. The main thing with the busa engine is the strain on the crank and the big end bearings. The rest of the unit is under no more stress per se than when installed in a bike (other than perhaps the output shaft). (Assuming there are no missed changes, or attempted flat shifts)!
Fergus,
It is strongly encouraged for the obvious reason's of additional income stream for the Radical group, which makes perfect sense from their point of view!
I myself don't have a Powertec engine due to a longterm successful relationship with Mistral performance, this was accepted with good grace by the Powertec guys. However its a condition of the allowing into the championship of none Powertec engines that once sealed if it needs to come apart during the season due to a developed fault that all work is carried out by Powertec.
The Powertec guys are without question a very helpful bunch & as David mentions they attend all the club events with their guys & a spare supply of engines / parts ready to sort out any problems you may have during the course of a race weekend, this is a benefit that cost has to be paid for from somewhere so you can sort of see why the use of PT is encouraged somewhat........
Before the season started I was told that as my engine was not one of theirs, if I encountered any problems at an event then I would be back of the que for help, which is totally right & proper.
Saying that when I had I problem during the green flag lap at Donnington with what turned out to be a b
ksed coil pack they were superb jumping on my car four strong, told me to stay strapped in whilst they diagnosed the problem & fitted a replacement double quick time to enable me to get a couple of laps in, establishing that it was all sorted ready for race 2, excellant service for which I am very grateful.
It is strongly encouraged for the obvious reason's of additional income stream for the Radical group, which makes perfect sense from their point of view!
I myself don't have a Powertec engine due to a longterm successful relationship with Mistral performance, this was accepted with good grace by the Powertec guys. However its a condition of the allowing into the championship of none Powertec engines that once sealed if it needs to come apart during the season due to a developed fault that all work is carried out by Powertec.
The Powertec guys are without question a very helpful bunch & as David mentions they attend all the club events with their guys & a spare supply of engines / parts ready to sort out any problems you may have during the course of a race weekend, this is a benefit that cost has to be paid for from somewhere so you can sort of see why the use of PT is encouraged somewhat........
Before the season started I was told that as my engine was not one of theirs, if I encountered any problems at an event then I would be back of the que for help, which is totally right & proper.
Saying that when I had I problem during the green flag lap at Donnington with what turned out to be a b
ksed coil pack they were superb jumping on my car four strong, told me to stay strapped in whilst they diagnosed the problem & fitted a replacement double quick time to enable me to get a couple of laps in, establishing that it was all sorted ready for race 2, excellant service for which I am very grateful.dsl2 said:
However its a condition of the allowing into the championship of none Powertec engines that once sealed if it needs to come apart during the season due to a developed fault that all work is carried out by Powertec.
Before the season started I was told that as my engine was not one of theirs, if I encountered any problems at an event then I would be back of the que for help, which is totally right & proper.
Hi. I'm not disputing that the PT guys sound very helpful indeed! I don't think that PT having a monopoly on fixing engines which are 'within a series' is entirely fair, but I guess people choose to race within their rules! The position they put you in in the queue is totally fair enough! Before the season started I was told that as my engine was not one of theirs, if I encountered any problems at an event then I would be back of the que for help, which is totally right & proper.
Thanks for the comments/feedback.
radical club cup regs said:
5.7.1
All engine/gearbox and or clutch units are prepared by and sealed by Powertec for Radical Sportscars Ltd.
All repairs and rebuilds must be undertaken by Powertec.
Looks like they have some flexibility though.All engine/gearbox and or clutch units are prepared by and sealed by Powertec for Radical Sportscars Ltd.
All repairs and rebuilds must be undertaken by Powertec.
Fergus, you could always rent out my car from Lanan and have a race!
Bert
BertBert said:
radical club cup regs said:
5.7.1
All engine/gearbox and or clutch units are prepared by and sealed by Powertec for Radical Sportscars Ltd.
All repairs and rebuilds must be undertaken by Powertec.
Looks like they have some flexibility though.All engine/gearbox and or clutch units are prepared by and sealed by Powertec for Radical Sportscars Ltd.
All repairs and rebuilds must be undertaken by Powertec.
Fergus, you could always rent out my car from Lanan and have a race!
Bert
If you want a powertec seal, I have a second hand one you can have. I have had to remove it from my Powertec 1100 engine as a piston started to break up and resulted in a hole in the crown at my last race. Luckily I stopped it before the piston broke up completely which if I contined would have most likely resulted in a bid for freedom for the conrod. Only 18 hrs use and 10.5k rev limit. I cannot believe Powertec fit cast pistons to a 'race' engine. Not impressed!
I am rebuilding it myself, at least I know what is going in there this time!
Where ever you get the engine built make sure it has the 'right' pistons and rods.
Martin
I am rebuilding it myself, at least I know what is going in there this time!
Where ever you get the engine built make sure it has the 'right' pistons and rods.
Martin
Edited by Martin B on Tuesday 4th August 22:38
Martin B said:
I cannot believe Powertec fit cast pistons to a 'race' engine. Not impressed!
To be honest, after speaking to some friends who built suzuki WBS engines, some other tricks powertec employ don't appear to look too clever either! Especially given what they charge. They appear to have the revered following that Minister have in the Rover K series world though 
fergus said:
To be honest, after speaking to some friends who built suzuki WBS engines, some other tricks powertec employ don't appear to look too clever either! Especially given what they charge. They appear to have the revered following that Minister have in the Rover K series world though
Probably quite a strong parallel!Bert
Well I have to say I have been dealing with Powertec for some years now and am really happy with both the quality of the pruduct and the service and support they provide
They have always met commited timescales and have even have turned round engine rebuilds for me in a matter of days. They are supportive at races and will do anything they can to ensure you get to the grid without quibbling about who, what, how much etc
And best of all, a warranty on a race engine... Not a common thing
A Top outfit IMHO
Simon
They have always met commited timescales and have even have turned round engine rebuilds for me in a matter of days. They are supportive at races and will do anything they can to ensure you get to the grid without quibbling about who, what, how much etc
And best of all, a warranty on a race engine... Not a common thing
A Top outfit IMHO
Simon
yep, that makes them them same as Minister then...
...do good work
...costs high
...good reputation with many
...some peoples' experiences are not so good!
I've paid good chunks of money to both companies, had mixed dealings with Minister although mostly good, had good dealings with Powertec so far.
Bert
...do good work
...costs high
...good reputation with many
...some peoples' experiences are not so good!
I've paid good chunks of money to both companies, had mixed dealings with Minister although mostly good, had good dealings with Powertec so far.
Bert
I tend to subscribe to the approach 'speak as YOU find', rather than relying on secondhand info about how an outfit apparently did or didn't look after someone else, particularly if you don't really know that someone from Adam; my experience is that a negative account is often deliberately gilded with exaggerations ....... to nick you as a Customer. Most of us will be in some sort of business and most of us will have come across instances of our business being criticised for what we've done for one of our existing Customers; not uncommonly by the competition completely inventing/rumouring criticism and/or lack of performance.
Basically most people in the motorsport trade do charge heavily for their expertise; to borrow Darren's expression from a while ago, "..... like a wounded rhino"; the only question is how much weight the rhino's going to be carrying.
So best listen to Radical Pilots that we know and respect who have paid bills as Customers >
Simon T describes Powertec as a top outfit; in my book, that means full marks to PT
Darren has a longstanding relationship with Mistral and the dyno shows they have built him a good 'un; in my book, that means full marks to M.
Darren goes on to say how (despite the fact that they did not build the engine) PT swarmed him to his assistance @ Dony and likewise what a great job Radical do at their race series; in my book, that means full marks to PT & R.
My Customer experience of both Radical & Powertec is much less intensive & extensive, but for reasons I've previously explained (that me being then new to Radicals, both could have told me anything with a very big bill to suit, but they didn't, so I got a relatively modest one), I'd likewise give them full marks so far.
Like I say, speak as YOU find ......... not as you hear rumour of .......... apparently, another manufacturer of a spaceframe car (beginning with A) thinks Radicals aren't 'proper' because most of them have a motorcycle engine, yet another priceless gem to be filed next to the patent for the chocolate teapot.
And let's never forget that NO-ONE gets it 100% right, 100% of the time. If someone makes a bit of a lash-up on the odd occasion, providing they promptly put their hand upto it and sort it at their cost, that's good enough for me.
Basically most people in the motorsport trade do charge heavily for their expertise; to borrow Darren's expression from a while ago, "..... like a wounded rhino"; the only question is how much weight the rhino's going to be carrying.
So best listen to Radical Pilots that we know and respect who have paid bills as Customers >
Simon T describes Powertec as a top outfit; in my book, that means full marks to PT
Darren has a longstanding relationship with Mistral and the dyno shows they have built him a good 'un; in my book, that means full marks to M.
Darren goes on to say how (despite the fact that they did not build the engine) PT swarmed him to his assistance @ Dony and likewise what a great job Radical do at their race series; in my book, that means full marks to PT & R.
My Customer experience of both Radical & Powertec is much less intensive & extensive, but for reasons I've previously explained (that me being then new to Radicals, both could have told me anything with a very big bill to suit, but they didn't, so I got a relatively modest one), I'd likewise give them full marks so far.
Like I say, speak as YOU find ......... not as you hear rumour of .......... apparently, another manufacturer of a spaceframe car (beginning with A) thinks Radicals aren't 'proper' because most of them have a motorcycle engine, yet another priceless gem to be filed next to the patent for the chocolate teapot.
And let's never forget that NO-ONE gets it 100% right, 100% of the time. If someone makes a bit of a lash-up on the odd occasion, providing they promptly put their hand upto it and sort it at their cost, that's good enough for me.
splitpin said:
I tend to subscribe to the approach 'speak as YOU find', rather than relying on secondhand info about how an outfit apparently did or didn't look after someone else, particularly if you don't really know that someone from Adam; my experience is that a negative account is often deliberately gilded with exaggerations ....... to nick you as a Customer. Most of us will be in some sort of business and most of us will have come across instances of our business being criticised for what we've done for one of our existing Customers; not uncommonly by the competition completely inventing/rumouring criticism and/or lack of performance.
Basically most people in the motorsport trade do charge heavily for their expertise; to borrow Darren's expression from a while ago, "..... like a wounded rhino"; the only question is how much weight the rhino's going to be carrying.
So best listen to Radical Pilots that we know and respect who have paid bills as Customers >
Simon T describes Powertec as a top outfit; in my book, that means full marks to PT
Darren has a longstanding relationship with Mistral and the dyno shows they have built him a good 'un; in my book, that means full marks to M.
Darren goes on to say how (despite the fact that they did not build the engine) PT swarmed him to his assistance @ Dony and likewise what a great job Radical do at their race series; in my book, that means full marks to PT & R.
My Customer experience of both Radical & Powertec is much less intensive & extensive, but for reasons I've previously explained (that me being then new to Radicals, both could have told me anything with a very big bill to suit, but they didn't, so I got a relatively modest one), I'd likewise give them full marks so far.
Like I say, speak as YOU find ......... not as you hear rumour of .......... apparently, another manufacturer of a spaceframe car (beginning with A) thinks Radicals aren't 'proper' because most of them have a motorcycle engine, yet another priceless gem to be filed next to the patent for the chocolate teapot.
And let's never forget that NO-ONE gets it 100% right, 100% of the time. If someone makes a bit of a lash-up on the odd occasion, providing they promptly put their hand upto it and sort it at their cost, that's good enough for me.
granted, although some comments were made to me by an engine builder capable of squeezing nearly 230hp out of an NA 1000cc engine for a factory backed suzuki team.Basically most people in the motorsport trade do charge heavily for their expertise; to borrow Darren's expression from a while ago, "..... like a wounded rhino"; the only question is how much weight the rhino's going to be carrying.
So best listen to Radical Pilots that we know and respect who have paid bills as Customers >
Simon T describes Powertec as a top outfit; in my book, that means full marks to PT
Darren has a longstanding relationship with Mistral and the dyno shows they have built him a good 'un; in my book, that means full marks to M.
Darren goes on to say how (despite the fact that they did not build the engine) PT swarmed him to his assistance @ Dony and likewise what a great job Radical do at their race series; in my book, that means full marks to PT & R.
My Customer experience of both Radical & Powertec is much less intensive & extensive, but for reasons I've previously explained (that me being then new to Radicals, both could have told me anything with a very big bill to suit, but they didn't, so I got a relatively modest one), I'd likewise give them full marks so far.
Like I say, speak as YOU find ......... not as you hear rumour of .......... apparently, another manufacturer of a spaceframe car (beginning with A) thinks Radicals aren't 'proper' because most of them have a motorcycle engine, yet another priceless gem to be filed next to the patent for the chocolate teapot.
And let's never forget that NO-ONE gets it 100% right, 100% of the time. If someone makes a bit of a lash-up on the odd occasion, providing they promptly put their hand upto it and sort it at their cost, that's good enough for me.
Also, having spent a fair while racing bikes and using the myriad of engine builders out there, getting what you pay for is not really an addage that holds any weight in the real world. It's kind of like someone who buys jewellery from Tiffany - that don't really know what's going on, so go to a 'brand name' to have their pants pulled down for them!!
Just in case you may have thought so, I wasn't having a pop at you Fergus; you have extensive firsthand bike engine experience and 'your' guys certainly seem to know their stuff; but equally, there are outfits out there (not necessarily confined to engine blokes) that reckon they can do twice the job at half the price and make a right old lash up (one shouldn't lose sight of the differences between a bike and a Rad empowered with a Busa, like dry-sumping, driving through a torque sensing diff and drive shafts, an engine that doesn't bank, higher G through the corners & on braking etc) and then say "it's the way you drove it".
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