Clubsport Engines
Discussion
I could have tagged this on to the "Castle Combe" (note correct spelling Rob) Thread, but that's sufficiently 'lateral' already.
Question for 'Boots & Co' > what engines can be used in a Clubsport and still stay in that Class in the Radical Club Championship? Most seem to have been Kwacker 11 & 12; are big-bore versions of these allowed?; is a 1340 Hayabusa allowed - if so, presumably, 'non-tuned'?
Cheers!
Question for 'Boots & Co' > what engines can be used in a Clubsport and still stay in that Class in the Radical Club Championship? Most seem to have been Kwacker 11 & 12; are big-bore versions of these allowed?; is a 1340 Hayabusa allowed - if so, presumably, 'non-tuned'?
Cheers!
The Club Cup regs state specifics but basically it's the stock 1100 only for the Clubsport class - otherwise you'd be placed into the tuned class.
When your engine is sealed (a prerequisite of the regs assuming it's non-Powertec sourced) Radical dyno run your car against a baseline curve to confirm it's not a big banger or anything trick.
Pete Browne's Clubsport runs in the tuned category so you could check with him.
Mark
When your engine is sealed (a prerequisite of the regs assuming it's non-Powertec sourced) Radical dyno run your car against a baseline curve to confirm it's not a big banger or anything trick.
Pete Browne's Clubsport runs in the tuned category so you could check with him.
Mark
Cheers Mark
So am I getting this right? > the Clubsport only ever got fitted as standard with an 1100 Kwacker, whereas the Prosport (pre PR06) from 99 onwards as standard had other engines, 'usually' a 'non-tuned' Hayabusa and that the way to visually tell say a '99 Clubsport from a say '99 Prosport is that the Clubsport didn't have a rear plane, whereas the Proport did? Presumably a 'non-tuned' Hayabusa (be that a Prosport or a PR06) would be put in the Biduro Class, hence why one sees Richard Stable's car listed there, even if competing as a non-points scoring guest?
BTW, as you didn't compete at Castle Combe, it occurs to me to ask how you are getting on with your post Dony repairs? Well I hope.
So am I getting this right? > the Clubsport only ever got fitted as standard with an 1100 Kwacker, whereas the Prosport (pre PR06) from 99 onwards as standard had other engines, 'usually' a 'non-tuned' Hayabusa and that the way to visually tell say a '99 Clubsport from a say '99 Prosport is that the Clubsport didn't have a rear plane, whereas the Proport did? Presumably a 'non-tuned' Hayabusa (be that a Prosport or a PR06) would be put in the Biduro Class, hence why one sees Richard Stable's car listed there, even if competing as a non-points scoring guest?
BTW, as you didn't compete at Castle Combe, it occurs to me to ask how you are getting on with your post Dony repairs? Well I hope.
Trev,
They let Richard Stables out with the bi duro class as it seemd the best fit at that round... but from what i gather the Bi duro folk weren't impressed with a Pr06 in with them, so i don't see that happening again (unfortunately)
At donington they ran the Prosport/Pro6 class, as me, JP Ivey and Richard had entered... but given none of us (to my knowledge) have signed up to do the whole radical championship... that was a one off.
It would be interesting to see what they'd do if they got a std prosport or PR06 (1300cc) enter as a one off again.. to me the Bi Duro class is fine, as the 1200 Kwak and 1300 std busa are very close in performance.. and its better to have a few cars in a class rather than just the 1, 2 or 3...
In my opinion the Radical series is excellent as it gets capacity or at least very full grids... But the tuned class is taking away from the 'club' element, be interesting to see how it develops in the coming years...
They let Richard Stables out with the bi duro class as it seemd the best fit at that round... but from what i gather the Bi duro folk weren't impressed with a Pr06 in with them, so i don't see that happening again (unfortunately)
At donington they ran the Prosport/Pro6 class, as me, JP Ivey and Richard had entered... but given none of us (to my knowledge) have signed up to do the whole radical championship... that was a one off.
It would be interesting to see what they'd do if they got a std prosport or PR06 (1300cc) enter as a one off again.. to me the Bi Duro class is fine, as the 1200 Kwak and 1300 std busa are very close in performance.. and its better to have a few cars in a class rather than just the 1, 2 or 3...
In my opinion the Radical series is excellent as it gets capacity or at least very full grids... But the tuned class is taking away from the 'club' element, be interesting to see how it develops in the coming years...
Excellent food for thought Mark and I agree with an awful lot you've said. To my mind, a lot of this revolves around Tuned PR06s becoming evermore capable of giving SR8s some serious hassle at all but the very longest and fastest tracks, which is why the UK Cup is now in effect a mini-endurance format?; remains to be seen whether the SR3 RS will be able to add some logic to this.
Seems to me that the solution may be to adopt a three race format? perhaps something along the lines of Clubsport, StrokerSports & Hypersports.
Seems to me that the solution may be to adopt a three race format? perhaps something along the lines of Clubsport, StrokerSports & Hypersports.
ultimately i doubt they will change anything for next year - as its getting the numbers in, and they won't want to upset a system that works.. getting 32 cars on the grid at donington was unreal - especially in the current climate when there are many struggling.
I think longer term they may need a more 'club' element, maybe limited to 'std' engines, or at least no stroked and tuned motors, and have a premium series aimed at the larger capacity/HP machines, I don;t know much about teh endurance UK Cup, but numbers do seem low in it - not sure if thats just a sign of the economy though...
maybe bunching ALL the radicals into a 2 phased qualfying shoot out... having a A and B races, and then an endurance race for those that wish may be a good option, but probably too 'Radical' for a series that is currently working well..... If it ain;t broken and all that !!
I think longer term they may need a more 'club' element, maybe limited to 'std' engines, or at least no stroked and tuned motors, and have a premium series aimed at the larger capacity/HP machines, I don;t know much about teh endurance UK Cup, but numbers do seem low in it - not sure if thats just a sign of the economy though...
maybe bunching ALL the radicals into a 2 phased qualfying shoot out... having a A and B races, and then an endurance race for those that wish may be a good option, but probably too 'Radical' for a series that is currently working well..... If it ain;t broken and all that !!
splitpin said:
Cheers Mark
So am I getting this right? > the Clubsport only ever got fitted as standard with an 1100 Kwacker, whereas the Prosport (pre PR06) from 99 onwards as standard had other engines, 'usually' a 'non-tuned' Hayabusa and that the way to visually tell say a '99 Clubsport from a say '99 Prosport is that the Clubsport didn't have a rear plane, whereas the Proport did? Presumably a 'non-tuned' Hayabusa (be that a Prosport or a PR06) would be put in the Biduro Class, hence why one sees Richard Stable's car listed there, even if competing as a non-points scoring guest?
BTW, as you didn't compete at Castle Combe, it occurs to me to ask how you are getting on with your post Dony repairs? Well I hope.
I've not even looked at the car, just too busy with other stuff and still marginally hacked off about being punted off twice. It will come back together pretty quickly; the damage is light, the cost isn't. So am I getting this right? > the Clubsport only ever got fitted as standard with an 1100 Kwacker, whereas the Prosport (pre PR06) from 99 onwards as standard had other engines, 'usually' a 'non-tuned' Hayabusa and that the way to visually tell say a '99 Clubsport from a say '99 Prosport is that the Clubsport didn't have a rear plane, whereas the Proport did? Presumably a 'non-tuned' Hayabusa (be that a Prosport or a PR06) would be put in the Biduro Class, hence why one sees Richard Stable's car listed there, even if competing as a non-points scoring guest?
BTW, as you didn't compete at Castle Combe, it occurs to me to ask how you are getting on with your post Dony repairs? Well I hope.
Interesting thread more generally on how Club Cup classes may evolve in future; I'd like to see modification capped because 'spending to victory' isn't my idea of club racing; I don't begrudge anyone wanting to go faster, it's a just a good close battle I want from each race...
Its a tricky subject for sure, the problem being that as soon as one person goes down the bigger motor route others soon follow......
In the club cup the number of people with "big" engine has increased pretty much meeting by meeting, I don't mind as this is a learning year for me, but next year I want to be in a position to win. This leaves me with having to forkout for a bigger cc engine during the off season with all the associated extra costs of big bore exhaust / bigger rad / different sidepod with extra ducting for the big rad etc etc.
I look at the Club cup as being the pinnacle of Radical racing & as such its going to cost to run at the front, but this year touch wood I have been pleasantly surprised that the costs have not been too bad at all considering the level of competition (baring disasters) Help's a lot to keep costs down by running your own car, although it can be a right ball ache!
Ultimately Radical must be congratulated for the professional way they run the championship & for providing all the back up available to us at each event with only a modest uplift in race fees over other championships. Having raced in other poorly attended championships this year the club cup is the place to be for sure, long may it continue to prosper.......
In the club cup the number of people with "big" engine has increased pretty much meeting by meeting, I don't mind as this is a learning year for me, but next year I want to be in a position to win. This leaves me with having to forkout for a bigger cc engine during the off season with all the associated extra costs of big bore exhaust / bigger rad / different sidepod with extra ducting for the big rad etc etc.
I look at the Club cup as being the pinnacle of Radical racing & as such its going to cost to run at the front, but this year touch wood I have been pleasantly surprised that the costs have not been too bad at all considering the level of competition (baring disasters) Help's a lot to keep costs down by running your own car, although it can be a right ball ache!
Ultimately Radical must be congratulated for the professional way they run the championship & for providing all the back up available to us at each event with only a modest uplift in race fees over other championships. Having raced in other poorly attended championships this year the club cup is the place to be for sure, long may it continue to prosper.......
I guess its going to be extremely difficult to have a class to suit all the different permutations of engine size / state of tune etc for each model of car or there will be as many classes as runners!
To my mind you either run the bog standard sealed motor spec for each model in a "standard" class for each type or you take your chances amongst all the tuned cars of various cc's & do your best. Which is pretty much what we have now except for not running the standard Powertec 1500's PR6 in with the SR3's, i.e. the PR6 would have to return to a standard 1300 or be in the tuned class.
Maybe one thing to look at could be the banning of any engine size above a 1475 (or 1550cc?) engine in just the PR6 in the tuned class, thus allowing all the SR3's out there be able to run one of the new 1660cc motors to help level the playing field up a tad?
To my mind you either run the bog standard sealed motor spec for each model in a "standard" class for each type or you take your chances amongst all the tuned cars of various cc's & do your best. Which is pretty much what we have now except for not running the standard Powertec 1500's PR6 in with the SR3's, i.e. the PR6 would have to return to a standard 1300 or be in the tuned class.
Maybe one thing to look at could be the banning of any engine size above a 1475 (or 1550cc?) engine in just the PR6 in the tuned class, thus allowing all the SR3's out there be able to run one of the new 1660cc motors to help level the playing field up a tad?
Edited by dsl2 on Friday 24th July 17:12
Edited by dsl2 on Friday 24th July 17:41
scooby151 said:
hi there, I am new here. I am planning to buy an sr4clubsport to race mainly in hillclimbs. What I would like to know is if you know of anyone who has mounted a bigger engine on the clubsport? say a 1400cc or so. thanks to all.
cheers
Rob Clarke will be along soon. He has done just that by putting a 1400 busa in a clubsport. Check out his site www.mtcracing.co.ukcheers
My dad has a 1400 busa in his SR4.
Josh
(joshsmith931@aol.com)
Edited by Josh Smith on Saturday 25th July 22:34
I think its time they cap the club class at 1500 fro a pro6 and let the sr3 be capped at 1600 any bigger than that they can go into the UK cup otherwise it will be an expensive upward spiral with bigger more expensive engines.
there is plenty more to development to come from new aerp packages which is much cheaper than ever bigger and more expensive engines.
It cant be a good thing from a marketing point of view if you have people downgrading from sr3 to a pro6 in order to win races in the club class
there is plenty more to development to come from new aerp packages which is much cheaper than ever bigger and more expensive engines.
It cant be a good thing from a marketing point of view if you have people downgrading from sr3 to a pro6 in order to win races in the club class
scooby151 said:
hi there, I am new here. I am planning to buy an sr4clubsport to race mainly in hillclimbs. What I would like to know is if you know of anyone who has mounted a bigger engine on the clubsport? say a 1400cc or so. thanks to all.
cheers
James: Join the Radical Owners Club: cheers
Some of the Members have very impressive credentials in hillclimbing and sprints and a wealth of experience in making related pretty specialised improvements to engine, chassis and aero, all of which are not necessarily the same as how the circuit blokes would go about things / need >
Email ROC Founder Will > radicaloc@googlemail.com
Cheers
PS The way I read it, you're enquiring about putting a bigger engine in an "SR4" (which happens to have "Clubsport" on the air intake cowl), not the original single seater "Clubsport"? In which event (forced induction aside), no problem; an SR4 will either have a '1200 Kwacker' or better still a '1300 Suzi'; I say better still because the 'Suzi' is the most popular (and still current) basis for bigger engines thru various combinations of bigger pistons and/or longer strokes; either way (bigger or longer holes for the pistons), the outside size of the engine stays the same, so 'room to fit' doesn't arise at all.
Edited by splitpin on Sunday 26th July 12:39
Edited by splitpin on Sunday 26th July 12:40
Scooby,
Not knowing your current knowledge level regarding Radicals & Busa engines, but as long as you already have a Busa engine installed the car the increase capacity is all within the existing engine casings so nothing phisical will change regarding the installation.
The 1400cc engine option offers a decent improvement over a 1300, providing a nice feeling revvy engine that has the additional power & torque you would expect over a 1300 at sensible additional cost.
For instance my Mistral built 1300cc engine has 192 rwbhp on the Powertec dyno via the chain drive & Quaife limited slip diff, on the same day I also had my Caterham 7 with a Mistral built 1397cc Busa dyno'ed that runs two propshafts & a big bulky ZF limited slip diff so much greater losses, that posted 200.1 rwbhp. If that motor was transfered to the Radical I would of guessed that it may well of put out near on 210 rwbhp which would be awesome!
Also the 1400cc motor was producing max power from just after 10,000 rpm right the way to 11,000 rpm with no drop off, I put this down to the big valves that my 1300cc does not have, the 1300 tails off considerably from about 10,400rpm by comparison.
Not knowing your current knowledge level regarding Radicals & Busa engines, but as long as you already have a Busa engine installed the car the increase capacity is all within the existing engine casings so nothing phisical will change regarding the installation.
The 1400cc engine option offers a decent improvement over a 1300, providing a nice feeling revvy engine that has the additional power & torque you would expect over a 1300 at sensible additional cost.
For instance my Mistral built 1300cc engine has 192 rwbhp on the Powertec dyno via the chain drive & Quaife limited slip diff, on the same day I also had my Caterham 7 with a Mistral built 1397cc Busa dyno'ed that runs two propshafts & a big bulky ZF limited slip diff so much greater losses, that posted 200.1 rwbhp. If that motor was transfered to the Radical I would of guessed that it may well of put out near on 210 rwbhp which would be awesome!
Also the 1400cc motor was producing max power from just after 10,000 rpm right the way to 11,000 rpm with no drop off, I put this down to the big valves that my 1300cc does not have, the 1300 tails off considerably from about 10,400rpm by comparison.
thanks to all for such a quick reply. The truth is I am asking this question because I am seriously interested in buying a clubsport (sr4 i guess) to rae in hillclimbs, that is why I asked about the engine, because I would need a bigger engine to compete with the single seaters. I come from Malta and I am currently racing a Subaru Impreza in the hillclimbs , which I coincidentally bought from the UK. It is presantly for sale , so the moment I sell I would be searcing to buy a Radical.
I want to move to something with a bike engine because many of my friends go racing to Sicily on a track (since we obviously dont have one here) and I feel that something with a bike engine offers greater reliability, first of all, and moe competition.
sorry to have bored you over with the story of my life.
James
I want to move to something with a bike engine because many of my friends go racing to Sicily on a track (since we obviously dont have one here) and I feel that something with a bike engine offers greater reliability, first of all, and moe competition.
sorry to have bored you over with the story of my life.
James
dsl2 said:
For instance my Mistral built 1300cc engine has 192 rwbhp on the Powertec dyno
Just interested in how reliable we feel the Powertec dyno to be? If you have 15% losses, then you are pushing 225 bhp. Not bad from the 1300 lump.Why do they do rwhp? Does their dyno not do losses?
Bert
Dynos can only physically measure rear wheel power. anyone quoting losses and power at the crank is just guessing and totally unreliable. Power at the crack needs to be measured at the crank.
Any way all that matters is power (and torque) at the wheel! That is what moves the car along the track.
Based on their sales material ror Radical, the powertech rolling road must be wildly optimistic!!
Any way all that matters is power (and torque) at the wheel! That is what moves the car along the track.
Based on their sales material ror Radical, the powertech rolling road must be wildly optimistic!!
Edited by SportsLibre on Monday 27th July 00:21
SportsLibre said:
Hi Scooby, from what I have seen, either go for a original Clubsport 1100 and fit a bigger engine (I have fitted a 1400) or a Prosport 1300m or 1500, I've seen a couple of SR4s in Speed events and beat them (even before fitting the bigger engine!).
ok, sorry for my ignorance, but I thought that the sr4 was the same as a clubsport. I have seen a few advertised for sale and the asking price is around 12 grand, I guess thos are the clubsport.for examplehttp://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1028795.htm
http://classifieds.crash.net/crash/crash/race-cars...
Also, just another question, I know you guys are obviously biased, but what do you think about the global GT and fitting a 1400cc to it?
thanks again guys
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