SR4/SR3 for track days

[salsoul]

Hi all,

First of all apologies if this gets asked over and over, I have searched but not found many details.

I am considering an SR4 or SR3 solely for track day use and wondered if any people on here used them in this capacity rather than racing them? From reading through a few threads on here it seems that they are not just a turn up at the track and away you go sort of car, is that correct? What is actually needed to be done before you start driving and can the majority of this done at home before setting off?

Few more questions:

- How many hours are people doing on an engine when only doing track days and how much roughly is an engine refresh?
- Are there any essential specifications which I should be looking for and is there much difference between the Kawasaki and Hyabusa units?
- Obviously dependent on your driving style, but roughly how long can you expect to use slicks for before they go totally off?
- I have never had anything like a Radical before, does anyone run driver improvement courses specifically aimed at the Radical?

I am sure I will have many more questions, but that's all I can think of for now.

Thanks for any information.

[lanan]

We run a Radical Sr3 and Clubsport at trackdays and races.
But if you want a DIY insight DarioT will be along shortly..!

Graham


.

[DarioT]

lanan said:

We run a Radical Sr3 and Clubsport at trackdays and races.
But if you want a DIY insight DarioT will be along shortly..!

Graham


.

cool, i've got a reputation which precceds me!!! Dario

this is a synopsys of my time with an SR3, i don't think i'm alone in this, but as Graham has named me i will tell it the way i see it. to make it simple i have added my answers in ( )



Hi all,

First of all apologies if this gets asked over and over, I have searched but not found many details.

I am considering an SR4 or SR3 solely for track day use and wondered if any people on here used them in this capacity rather than racing them?

(( i use mine soley as a track day car. i started with my road going Z4 and thought that i needed something that was more track focused. realistically i did not know what the hell i had let my self in for! you do need to recalibrate evenything that you know about road cars (ie turn up to track with good tyres and pads and a tank full of fuel and thats about it). these things need trailers, somewhere to park them at home or work or somehwere secure! if you dont want to spend money and not go on track you will need a set of wheels shod with wet tyres.... an inevitable position in the UK and SPA lol! jacks, wheel gun sockets strong arm bar for when the wheel nut wont come off!!! oh a tow vehicle capable of legally towing the rig!

and if you have a mechanical background it will save a fortune. if you dont then dont then possibly don't get a car like a radical))



From reading through a few threads on here it seems that they are not just a turn up at the track and away you go sort of car, is that correct? What is actually needed to be done before you start driving and can the majority of this done at home before setting off?

((realistically every time you use the car on track you should be spending time on the car to visually check all suspension joints, bolts and just about anything you can tug / twist etc. in my estimate i guess that every track day out needs about 1/2 a day of inspection and fettling. then if you find someing that needs doing and needs spares they have to be ordered and you then have to get the car off the trailer again (unless you are keeping it in the garage (and you need a large garage becasus the car is so wide!!) and this is a constant process. every 8-10 hours of engine running (i fitted an engine run timer to keep an eye on the run time) you have to change the engine oil and filter, then every other time i change out the diff oil). NB either somebody runs the car for you or you must dedicate the time to car maintenance))

Few more questions:

- How many hours are people doing on an engine when only doing track days and how much roughly is an engine refresh? i had mine done at 30 hours, but i think that was a waste of time!

(( now that i have fitted the timer i can see that my "estimates" of run time without the timer were grossly over exagerated probably by the tune of 2 - 3 times) so deffo a run timer is needed!))

- Are there any essential specifications which I should be looking for and is there much difference between the Kawasaki and Hyabusa units?

((cant comment here, except to say that i have heard that the 1300cc busa engine is less costly to deal with and for a TD car probably the way to go. i have the 1500 but know no different! if you get an opertunity to buy a car make sure that you have all the records for the car and a fresh rebuild. however this is not so bad, as you can get it done yourself by Powertech but cost depends on where you are in the rebuild cycle. give them the chassis or engine number and they will be able to tell you what rebuild is next. if you do get a rebuild done then make sure that you get an upgrade done on the cam chain!!!))

- Obviously dependent on your driving style, but roughly how long can you expect to use slicks for before they go totally off?

(( i have done in excess of 10-12 track days on a set of slicks and realistically its only when you are racing that you need the extra grip! they can go hard, but it just means you will be a little slowere on a track day relitively. you will still be quicker than most other metal on track and will have to slow for just about every other car so you pays you money and takes you choice. BTW a new set of boots do feel nice :-) ))

- I have never had anything like a Radical before, does anyone run driver improvement courses specifically aimed at the Radical?

(( at first i did not have any instruction, but when a "real driver who knows the car and is used to driveing this type of car gets hold of it you just get to realise how bloody fast they can be in expirenced hands. the god bit about this is that it takes somebody to show YOU what your car is capable of. now i can get on with it and it makes me smile. BUT it can take ME upwards of 1/2 a day to zero my brain in to just how late you can brake, how quick you can corner and just how bloody fast these things are. i had a race drive give me a days tuition at snetterton and that improved me no end and was worth the money))

I am sure I will have many more questions, but that's all I can think of for now.

((finally IMHO these cars are not for the faint hearted mine has cost me £7k a year for the last 2 years (including trackday and fuel and tyres and rebuilds and accident damage etc) add to this a tow vehicl and a trailer and thats what it will cost you.))

Thanks for any information.


good luck


Dario

[salsoul]

Hi Dario,

Thanks for the information, it was very useful.

I would try and do as much work on the car as possible myself. How accessible are they for doing this? Is it a matter of lift the bodywork off and you can easily access most parts?

Also, being created from a race car background I get that parts have lifetimes and must be replaced much more often than on a road going car. How fragile are these cars and is it too much to expect to be able to take it to 3-4 track days, run it all day before something breaks/needs replacing?

Thanks

[nick997]

Some good advice from Dario already on this.

salsoul said:

I am considering an SR4 or SR3 solely for track day use and wondered if any people on here used them in this capacity rather than racing them?

Loads of us on here run them for track days only, possibly more track dayers than racers.

salsoul said:

From reading through a few threads on here it seems that they are not just a turn up at the track and away you go sort of car, is that correct? What is actually needed to be done before you start driving and can the majority of this done at home before setting off?

No, definitely don't just turn up and drive them but that said most of the time it's only really basic maintenance to get them on the track - just rigorously enforced to ensure all runs smoothly. Oil changes, chain tension, CV joint greasing, nut and bolt checks, exhaust repacking, that sort of thing. More time consuming activities such as engine refreshes need to be kept on top of as Dario has explained.

Don't underestimate the practicalities of getting them to the track - suitable trailer with low ground clearance (my personal biggest cost issue having bought one trailer that wasn't really suitable and then buying a second enclosed one to do the job properly). Heavy trailers need tow cars to suit and I can see that being one of my next expenses, borrowing the wifes not being ideal.

salsoul said:

- Are there any essential specifications which I should be looking for and is there much difference between the Kawasaki and Hyabusa units?

Kwaker or Suzuki will be enough to keep you entertained for a long while. Older SR4's might be non high downforce aero spec which can take the front of the car off if you have an excursion off track. Fairly sure that the same applies for older SR3's. Don't worry about the fact an older car is lower downforce and therefore possibly slower laptime, they are all quick enough. Same goes for a Clubsport, plenty quick enough and being a little cheaper might leave more in your pot for running costs, decent trailer, etc.

salsoul said:

Obviously dependent on your driving style, but roughly how long can you expect to use slicks for before they go totally off?

Some use ex formula cars slicks that just about fit and can be bought off the race teams for a fraction of the cost of a set of Dunlop Radical tyres after a few heat cycles.

salsoul said:

- I have never had anything like a Radical before, does anyone run driver improvement courses specifically aimed at the Radical?

Jonathan Wright is a ARDS instructor and massively quick in a Radical. Also a great guy, very helpful.

Best of luck, you won't regret buying one if you are prepared to put effort in in the garage. Call it foreplay!

Nick

[BertBert]

The Radical is certainly a labour of love for the DIY track-dayer!

So to add.

Between trackdays. The cars are quite straightforward to work on and not *that* fragile. You do need space to get the bodywork off while you work on the car. Getting the car up in the air is also a bit of an acquired taste owing to their low clearance. Also the bodywork needs two people to handle. Mrs Bert is now an expert.

My maint routine consisted of cleaning all the chassis with WD40. This takes you all over the car and you can nut and bolt check each corner.

Then you have brake pad and fluid checks.
Oil change routine (I did every 2 or 3 track days)
Chain adjustment is a real PITA in my view. Getting it lined up and right tension is an art and it has to be done right.

Then finally before a track day you have to go and get fuel. That's just annoying fighting the garage bloke to let you fill up 40l into cans.

On the day you have to check between sessions. Oil level, lube and check chain. Check for coolant leaks. Check brakes. You need to get passers-by to help with the bodywork again.

Then the best days are rain/dry/rain/dry... you end up changing wheels and setup all day long!

And then pack it all up again at the end of the day!

So I have painted a fairly grim picture. However I loved it even if it was hard work.

Bert

[nick997]

BertBert said:

Also the bodywork needs two people to handle.

SR4 better for this, can do it on your own (Except for Trevor!), SR3 probably not the case being bigger and therefore heavier and less manouverable probably.

BertBert said:

Then finally before a track day you have to go and get fuel. That's just annoying fighting the garage bloke to let you fill up 40l into cans.

I've not had a problem at this at the local Tesco's, just put the cans behind the car and they don't know you are doing it from their position in the pay hut.

Bert - how's the foot? Are you racing at Donny?

Nick

[TISPKJ]

Hi Guys, I am also looking at a Radical as a track day / fun car.

I would be looking for a road registered version or registering a non registered car as this would greatly add to the amount I use it, would there be any issues in doing this ?

I would also initially run the car on something like Toyo R888's although I appreciate that the car would be capable of far more on slicks.

What would make the better road car SR3 or SR4 ?

I am not fully up to speed on the model range but note they are anything from 10k - 30k, is this purely age related or are there some must haves ?

Thanks in advance

[nick997]

TISPKJ said:

Hi Guys, I am also looking at a Radical as a track day / fun car.

I would be looking for a road registered version or registering a non registered car as this would greatly add to the amount I use it, would there be any issues in doing this ?

This one comes up from time to time - http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...

TISPKJ said:

What would make the better road car SR3 or SR4 ?

A Caterham

[salsoul]

Thanks for all the info guys, extremely helpful.

Do any of them have air jacks? If not what sort of jack do you use?

Also, does anybody know the two SR4's currently for sale in PH classifieds?

[nick997]

salsoul said:

Thanks for all the info guys, extremely helpful.

Do any of them have air jacks? If not what sort of jack do you use?

Also, does anybody know the two SR4's currently for sale in PH classifieds?

Both SR3 and SR4 can be fitted with air jacks but you need to carry a bottle of Nitrogen so most of us use quick lift jacks - quite likely you will be able to get one with a car if you buy second hand from somebody moving on. Normal trolley jack can be used on the rear once the floor is off (5 minute job).

The red SR4 looks to be slightly incorrectly described as it doesn't have the high downforce aero pack as suggested - see earlier comments on possible problem with this but don't let it rule it out. I bet the Minno trailer isn't ideal for it too.

Edited by nick997 on Wednesday 24th June 17:33

[silverthorn2151]

We run an SR3 just for track days.

The car is about 6 years old now and since an engine change to a 1300 Hyabusa has been good as gold.

there are always things to do, fiddling with clutches and stuff but on the whole it just turns up and goes. The engine has an different ECu (I think) and has been remapped and produces around 210bhp.

We run on either intermediates or slicks, but they last an age. There is some talk about slicks only being able to go through a certain number of heat cycles, but we don't find any loss of grip.

be aware though, anything from Radical will cost an arm and a leg, and if you are not racing you don't need branded components. We learnt on Monday, for instance, that the driveshafts are Ford Fiesta. £20 a pair from your local blue badge dealer, £60 each from Radical. (I'm relying on tjhose figures told to me, I haven't checked).

The whole experience of being on track in a Radical is mind blowing though. Noise, vibration, braking, grip etc etc. I was driving behind a very quick 360 this week. Similar speeds but my ride was so much more visceral than the Ferrari.

We're both having fun though!

Why not find a track day that you can get to and see if there is a radical going there. make contact and sign on as a passenger for a ride or two. Most people are very helpful and you'll have a better idea of what's in store for you. We would be happy to help out and if I can find out our next date, I'll let you know.

I know we are at Brands late July for an evening but that's a charity run where someone bid for some laps with Tiff Needell who drives ours on such occassions.

Having said all of that, don't underestimate the amount of time it takes generally checking and keeping things going.

Our maxim is, if it ain't broke, fiddle with it until it is!!

Chris

[aztec]

salsoul said:

Also, does anybody know the two SR4's currently for sale in PH classifieds?

Mine is the Yellow SR4, Any Questions?

Dave

[aztec]

SR4

Edited by aztec on Thursday 25th June 10:18

[TISPKJ]

nick997 said:

TISPKJ said:

Hi Guys, I am also looking at a Radical as a track day / fun car.

I would be looking for a road registered version or registering a non registered car as this would greatly add to the amount I use it, would there be any issues in doing this ?

This one comes up from time to time - http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...

TISPKJ said:

What would make the better road car SR3 or SR4 ?

A Caterham

Thanks for that nick, really good thread.

I take it that a non registered car can be registered in the normal manner and any parts needed like light pods etc purchased from Radical or you guys on here ?

[BertBert]

nick997 said:

Bert - how's the foot? Are you racing at Donny?
Nick

Hi Nick, I am sitting on the sofa looking at a thoroughly bandaged foot! It has been operated on (finally). So 5 weeks more of hopping, then physio, then driving again in sept time! Frustrating, but getting there finally.

Thanks for asking.
Bert

[Extremeracer]

I bought my SR4 new from Radical in 2004 so it's now in its sixth season. I bought it with the intention of doing hill-climbs, sprints and track days hoping that it would be a good tool for all of these activities, and so it has proved. I find the car a total joy to drive and it never ceases to thrill me with its abilities. Most of the time the car is a lot braver than I am. For hillclimbs it's a little too heavy and can be beaten in top events by ultra-lightweight and super-powered specialist bits of kit like Force SR4's, OMS's, Visions or some Mallocks. But you'll end up second or third. In sprinting, especially on fast flowing tracks like Goodwood the Radical is supreme. I won the BARC Sprint Championship with mine in 2007 - aged 65. As for trackdays, it's almost painful and sometimes a little embarrassing to experience how much faster the Radicals are than almost anything out there.
My engine is a Powertec 1500c.c. Hyabusa with loads of torque. I have had it maintained by Mistral at Southend who specialise in racing motor bike sidecar Hyabusa engines and these people are the first choice for many hill-climbers who run Hyabusa engines. It had one complete rebuild in 2006 following a chain break which caught the gear selector shaft that runs through the block. The expensive lesson to be learned here is to fit a FRONT sprocket chain guard. Then in 2008 it had a thorough overhaul - bearings etc; otherwise nothing apart from oil changes, new filters and new plugs. The brake discs were replaced for the first time this year (they are Ford Escort Mk4 I think, cheap as chips from your local parts dealer)and a third set of pads were put in. Chains need special attention in selection, replacement, adjustment and lubrication. There is all sorts of useful advice floating around from Radical owners that will save you time and money. I am ashamed to admit that my SR4 does not get the love and attention it deserves but it has been unbelievably reliable. You'll soon get the hang of the normal maintenance jobs but it is always helpful if you can find an enthusiastic mechanically minded buddy to assist from time to time with any difficult jobs. Over time the bodywork can become a little dog-eared but nothing serious.
Tyres can be expensive if you are sprinting and hill-climbing because you'll want very soft compounds. Harder compounds are used for track days and 'Dave' at BMTR will recommend the best Avon's for your needs. My first set of harder compound tyres lasted 3 years!
I have a Brian James "SR4" trailer on which the car sits snuggly. It has a tyre rack and a tool box and tows like a dream.
The SR4 is not in my view suitable for road use because it is too low to clear many ordinary road obstacles, would overheat in traffic and will cause you to lose your licence. It would be a scream to take it to your local pub on a sunny Sunday morning but its proper home is on the track.
If you like, we can do a track day together in my car (say Goodwood or Lydden or Brands - maybe Bedford Autodrome - scary) and you will get a good impression of what a Radical is like before you spen lots of money. Then you can decide what particular spec' would suit you.
In summary I would say that you will probably find best value as a track day car in a used SR4 or SR3 with a 1300c.c. Hyabusa, but if you intend to do serious competition work then spec' and condition and history are important. One thing is certain - it will blow your mind!

David Watson (07919 345970)

[splitpin]

Both you potential Radical Owners could find it most informative to try/do all you can to make Dony this coming Thursday: the Radical Factory Team themselves, most of the ace flyers like JonW, GaryK, DarrenL etc etc and several of us Trackdayers i.e. ROC including Founder Will will be there at some point in the day. Very good chance of a passenger ride, but after that there'll be no going back, particularly as it looks (fingers-crossed) to be a great day for enjoying a bit of a breeze!

Hope to see you both

PS to DW: Brilliantly informative piece; very well done @ Goodwood, delighted to hear; you and Jonathan Wright should share his saying ..... when asked about his mesmerising pace ...... "I'm too old to go slow"

Edited by splitpin on Monday 29th June 21:43

[Simon T]

Salsoul

JFDI!

Simon

www.tillingmotorsport.com

[dsl2]

Just another for Rob at Mistral who has built me many winning bike engines for hillclimbing over the last few years (Plus the 1300cc motor in my Radical at the moment)