SR3 Problem with Maximum Height
Discussion
We are just about to do a sprint at Goodwood and so as part of the preparations I checked everything to make sure we are within MSA limits for Sports Libre. It turns out that the rear wing is too tall by some 80mm, ie 980mm to the top of the end plates instead of the stated maximum of 900mm for the highest point of the car excluding roll over bar and air box. The car has the 2006 aero package with SR8 type rear wing with 2 elements. 80mm is a lot to lose without major surgery to the wing supports and or end plates - even cutting off the top of the end plates wouldn't do it as the trailing edge of the upper wing element is 910mm on a fast track setting. The ride height at the rear of the chassis is currently 70mm (Radical recommend 75mm) so there is no scope for doing anything there.
Does anyone have any suggestions? Incidently, the car was raced extensively before we bought it and appeared to have the same wing setup - have I got something wrong here? All ideas will be gratefully received!
Chris
Does anyone have any suggestions? Incidently, the car was raced extensively before we bought it and appeared to have the same wing setup - have I got something wrong here? All ideas will be gratefully received!
Chris
Chris
If you are referring to page 280 of the Grey Book (and not to any technical regs for Sports Libre) I can tell you that I went through all of this when I was Formula Rep for Bikesports and can assure you that this is a common misinterpretation of the Grey Book.
If you look, the dimension to which I'm guessing you refer relates only to single seaters.
Furthermore - having thoroughly investigated this matter still further (before recently spending £3k bring a wild and whacky wing over from the 'States) - I can assure you that there are no mandatory measurements for wings on our (sports racing) cars.
Race and be happy.
If you are referring to page 280 of the Grey Book (and not to any technical regs for Sports Libre) I can tell you that I went through all of this when I was Formula Rep for Bikesports and can assure you that this is a common misinterpretation of the Grey Book.
If you look, the dimension to which I'm guessing you refer relates only to single seaters.
Furthermore - having thoroughly investigated this matter still further (before recently spending £3k bring a wild and whacky wing over from the 'States) - I can assure you that there are no mandatory measurements for wings on our (sports racing) cars.
Race and be happy.
Edited by Count Johnny on Wednesday 10th June 03:54
I would have thought the regulation that pertains is (I)126 "Sports Racing Cars in Sports Libre classes must comply with the following" amongst which... "Maximum height(open cars) 90cm from the ground". Page 280 is in reference to car racing rather than speed events. I would suggest you may still have a problem.
That said the regulations are extremely unclear. The first part of the description of Sports Libre says that it includes amongst others "c) Sports Racing Cars" and "g) Sports Racing Cars not complying with c)". So that's a Sports Racing Car that is not a Sports Racing Car... I assume this is included as a philosophical brain teaser along the lines of "When is a door not a door" etc..
That said the regulations are extremely unclear. The first part of the description of Sports Libre says that it includes amongst others "c) Sports Racing Cars" and "g) Sports Racing Cars not complying with c)". So that's a Sports Racing Car that is not a Sports Racing Car... I assume this is included as a philosophical brain teaser along the lines of "When is a door not a door" etc..
CJ,
You are more than likely correct for circuit use re the rear wings but if you look at page 329 of the 09 Blue book, it hows the regs for Sports libre in sprints and hillclimbs, which are specific for sports racing cars.
Max rear aerofoil height closed cars (ie not open wheel) - 90cm
Dave
You are more than likely correct for circuit use re the rear wings but if you look at page 329 of the 09 Blue book, it hows the regs for Sports libre in sprints and hillclimbs, which are specific for sports racing cars.
Max rear aerofoil height closed cars (ie not open wheel) - 90cm
Dave
Not sure about that Dave.
Surely "open" and "closed" refer to the presence or absence of a roof.
To pick up Angus' pertinent point about the Kafkaesque self-contradictory nature of the Blue Book - I126 states that the maximum height of an open sports racing car is 90cm (no reference to aerofoil here) whereas C(c) 36 states that the minimum height of the rollbar must be 92cm measured along the line of the driver's spine from the bottom of the seat. So, if you sit reasonably upright the requirements are incompatible.
L
Surely "open" and "closed" refer to the presence or absence of a roof.
To pick up Angus' pertinent point about the Kafkaesque self-contradictory nature of the Blue Book - I126 states that the maximum height of an open sports racing car is 90cm (no reference to aerofoil here) whereas C(c) 36 states that the minimum height of the rollbar must be 92cm measured along the line of the driver's spine from the bottom of the seat. So, if you sit reasonably upright the requirements are incompatible.
L
LCM said:
Not sure about that Dave.
Surely "open" and "closed" refer to the presence or absence of a roof.
To pick up Angus' pertinent point about the Kafkaesque self-contradictory nature of the Blue Book - I126 states that the maximum height of an open sports racing car is 90cm (no reference to aerofoil here) whereas C(c) 36 states that the minimum height of the rollbar must be 92cm measured along the line of the driver's spine from the bottom of the seat. So, if you sit reasonably upright the requirements are incompatible.
L
True, particularly as your helmet must be 50mm below the top of the roll bar (fnnarr, snirk, etc.) but the roll bar is not considered to form part of the "height" in most of the other definitions of car dimensions in the book. Presumably as the roll bar is in principle considered to have been 'added' to the car as opposed to an integral part of it.Surely "open" and "closed" refer to the presence or absence of a roof.
To pick up Angus' pertinent point about the Kafkaesque self-contradictory nature of the Blue Book - I126 states that the maximum height of an open sports racing car is 90cm (no reference to aerofoil here) whereas C(c) 36 states that the minimum height of the rollbar must be 92cm measured along the line of the driver's spine from the bottom of the seat. So, if you sit reasonably upright the requirements are incompatible.
L
(Incidentally, in case I'm supposed to be Angus, I'm Richard. I shall remain enigmatic as to my height as I am unwilling to declare whether I am closed or open top.)
DaveK-S1 said:
...the regs for Sports libre in sprints and hillclimbs, which are specific for sports racing cars.
Max rear aerofoil height closed cars (ie not open wheel) - 90cm
Dave
I see. So it is specific to Sports Libre sprints/hillclimbs etc. Although I agree with LCM that 'closed' refers to the presence of a roof rather than the presence of mudguards.Max rear aerofoil height closed cars (ie not open wheel) - 90cm
Dave
Gosh! I've just had a quick read through and you've got lots of confusing and seemingly contradictory regs for sprints and hillclimbs, haven't you. I'm guessing that it's this, in part, what scrutineers half recall when pronouncing judgement on circuit racing cars.
What can I say Richard?
My only defence is that I was in a hell of a rush to eat something and get out to a meeting at the end of a long and difficult day and that my aged, and obviously defective, synapses malfunctioned and wrongly connected rustybin with Sportslibre. I should have been alerted to my error by the lack of solecisms in your original post (indeed I remarked upon it to myself at the time). Sadly, I do not have the defence of colour blindness to explain my inability to distinguish a blue Clubsport from a red one...................
Culpa me, culpa me!
Returning to the topic of rollbar heights, we also need to add to the current potential 970mm at least 40mm as the minimum distance of the floor from the ground plane and a mm or so for the thickness of the floor and potentially something for the seat base giving us something like 1015mm.
But back to Chris's original query - hillclimb and sprint regs allow for a fair degree of technical inventiveness and ingenuity with the result that they are quite loosely (and often cunfusingly) drafted . One of the delightful results is that in Sports Libre, we get to compete (but sadly "no contest") against things like Nic Mann's wonderful Mannic Beattie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11687nVdzdk
http://raceenginedesign.biz/Manic-Beattie.htm
So, Chris, except for matters safety, Speed regs are normally policed helpfully by the scrutes. Just make sure that your car is safe, that everything that should be tight is tight and everything that should be loose is loose and that nothing is likely to leak or spill, then relax and have a great day. Who knows you may even be bitten by the bug and join the other Radicals in Sprinting and Hillclimbing.
My only defence is that I was in a hell of a rush to eat something and get out to a meeting at the end of a long and difficult day and that my aged, and obviously defective, synapses malfunctioned and wrongly connected rustybin with Sportslibre. I should have been alerted to my error by the lack of solecisms in your original post (indeed I remarked upon it to myself at the time). Sadly, I do not have the defence of colour blindness to explain my inability to distinguish a blue Clubsport from a red one...................
Culpa me, culpa me!
Returning to the topic of rollbar heights, we also need to add to the current potential 970mm at least 40mm as the minimum distance of the floor from the ground plane and a mm or so for the thickness of the floor and potentially something for the seat base giving us something like 1015mm.
But back to Chris's original query - hillclimb and sprint regs allow for a fair degree of technical inventiveness and ingenuity with the result that they are quite loosely (and often cunfusingly) drafted . One of the delightful results is that in Sports Libre, we get to compete (but sadly "no contest") against things like Nic Mann's wonderful Mannic Beattie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11687nVdzdk
http://raceenginedesign.biz/Manic-Beattie.htm
So, Chris, except for matters safety, Speed regs are normally policed helpfully by the scrutes. Just make sure that your car is safe, that everything that should be tight is tight and everything that should be loose is loose and that nothing is likely to leak or spill, then relax and have a great day. Who knows you may even be bitten by the bug and join the other Radicals in Sprinting and Hillclimbing.
Many thanks everyone for the response. My readings of the regs are that roll bar height and air intake height can be above the stated maximum. Anyway, I am now not quite so relaxed about everything but will hope for the best. Also I would be reluctant to cut the top of the wing end plates off to bring the height down as it would ruin the ROC stickers placed there!
I have raced in the past but Tim hasn't in cars, although he has done quite a bit of Karting. This is our first entry into competition together, although I am getting to be a bit old for it, so any hassle over the eligability of the car is a bit of a pain. Anyway we look forward to meeting the other Radical drivers at Goodwood on the 27th.
I have raced in the past but Tim hasn't in cars, although he has done quite a bit of Karting. This is our first entry into competition together, although I am getting to be a bit old for it, so any hassle over the eligability of the car is a bit of a pain. Anyway we look forward to meeting the other Radical drivers at Goodwood on the 27th.
Hi Chris
DW is trying to get your mobile to speak to you. Despite all the debate with umpteen people thumbing through Regs, he is 100% (it'd say 200% if I was a football manager!) confident that there is absolutely no problem and/or issue here. So much so that I think he'd have to abort his own runs to spend his time eating your rear plane/end plates to below 900mm if he was proved wrong!
Time to totally chill out, relax & then mucho enjoy.
DW is trying to get your mobile to speak to you. Despite all the debate with umpteen people thumbing through Regs, he is 100% (it'd say 200% if I was a football manager!) confident that there is absolutely no problem and/or issue here. So much so that I think he'd have to abort his own runs to spend his time eating your rear plane/end plates to below 900mm if he was proved wrong!
Time to totally chill out, relax & then mucho enjoy.
Hi Andy
I have fitted the timing strut to the towing eye as I didn't want to drill any holes in the splitter or bodywork. It is attached with bolts and wing nuts to a plate through the hole in the towing eye and is quickly detachable. I am also going to apply some duct tape as well to hopefully ensure it doesn't move. At other sprints I have seen struts attached with duct tape only, and it seemed to work, but we expect to be doing 140 mph+ down the Lavant straight.
I will try to post a photo if I can work out how to do it.
Chris
I have fitted the timing strut to the towing eye as I didn't want to drill any holes in the splitter or bodywork. It is attached with bolts and wing nuts to a plate through the hole in the towing eye and is quickly detachable. I am also going to apply some duct tape as well to hopefully ensure it doesn't move. At other sprints I have seen struts attached with duct tape only, and it seemed to work, but we expect to be doing 140 mph+ down the Lavant straight.
I will try to post a photo if I can work out how to do it.
Chris
SportsLibre said:
LCM said:
my aged, and obviously defective, synapses malfunctioned and wrongly connected rustybin with Sportslibre. I should have been alerted to my error by the lack of solecisms in your original post (indeed I remarked upon it to myself at the time).
Solecisms?
SportsLibre said:
LCM said:
my aged, and obviously defective, synapses malfunctioned and wrongly connected rustybin with Sportslibre. I should have been alerted to my error by the lack of solecisms in your original post (indeed I remarked upon it to myself at the time).
Solecisms?
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