E36 Alpina crash at same Spa track day as my incident
Discussion
the same day i was tipped of the track at Spa my mate also decided to do some remoddleing.
this is an E36 Alpina which suffered a suspension failure (near side rear) which caused the severe turn to then right.
whilst writing off his pride and joy, he also has to pay 1800 euros for the repairs to the barriers.... just to add salt to the wound.
both driver and passanger were unhurt in this incident.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdK9unHqJyY
this is an E36 Alpina which suffered a suspension failure (near side rear) which caused the severe turn to then right.
whilst writing off his pride and joy, he also has to pay 1800 euros for the repairs to the barriers.... just to add salt to the wound.
both driver and passanger were unhurt in this incident.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdK9unHqJyY
Left rear was locked up, dodgy brakes? new pads not fitted right? brake bias set wrong? Even still he did'nt try & correct it or allow the car to do it itself (which it would have done) he was obviously holding the wheel dead straight so when the back comes round it just steers into the barriers - certainly partly driver error from what I can see.
Expensive day out!!
Expensive day out!!
No. both wrong on all counts.
the rear swing arm pivot broke away from the chassis!!! (i found this when the car was brought back to the paddock area). thereby allowing the rear wheel under braking to move back. as it move back the remaining lower link was still in play and this caused the now unattached forward edge of the wheel to point to the left. as it did this it steered the rear of the car to the right.
Statement from passanger was that full opposite lock was applied but to no avail.
car was doing 124mph before brakes were applied. brakes were applied at 95mph and car hit the barrieres at 76mph.
not driver error!
the rear swing arm pivot broke away from the chassis!!! (i found this when the car was brought back to the paddock area). thereby allowing the rear wheel under braking to move back. as it move back the remaining lower link was still in play and this caused the now unattached forward edge of the wheel to point to the left. as it did this it steered the rear of the car to the right.
Statement from passanger was that full opposite lock was applied but to no avail.
car was doing 124mph before brakes were applied. brakes were applied at 95mph and car hit the barrieres at 76mph.
not driver error!
Edited by DarioT on Monday 11th August 22:58
DarioT said:
No. both wrong on all counts.
the rear swing arm pivot broke away from the chassis!!! (i found this when the car was brought back to the paddock area). thereby allowing the rear wheel under braking to move back. as it move back the remaining lower link was still in play and this caused the now unattached forward edge of the wheel to point to the left. as it did this it steered the rear of the car to the right.
Statement from passanger was that full opposite lock was applied but to no avail.
car was doing 124mph before brakes were applied. brakes were applied at 95mph and car hit the barrieres at 76mph.
not driver error!
I'd say the damage was done by the impact, from what I can see there is little or no lock being applied & those beemers have a fair bit available usually. You should be able to tell by the way the arm is torn away in the raltive to the direction of the impact?the rear swing arm pivot broke away from the chassis!!! (i found this when the car was brought back to the paddock area). thereby allowing the rear wheel under braking to move back. as it move back the remaining lower link was still in play and this caused the now unattached forward edge of the wheel to point to the left. as it did this it steered the rear of the car to the right.
Statement from passanger was that full opposite lock was applied but to no avail.
car was doing 124mph before brakes were applied. brakes were applied at 95mph and car hit the barrieres at 76mph.
not driver error!
Edited by DarioT on Monday 11th August 22:58
Well after having seen both your threads and both video's your opinions do not seem to add up to the video evidence.
Though on the bmw video it would be hard to give a definative "something broke" answer, it would appear very very close to the white line and grasscrete that borders the approach , a light rear end would have certainly speared the car to the right and in fact it looks from the position of the left front to be certainly on the white line.
The driver does not react quickly , and certainly by does not add lock that quickly though this would have not really helped alot as the locked rear brakes didn't help.
Going back to the radical caterham incident , unfortunately the caterham was totally blameless , and to be fair most driver would have far from scarpered as you re entered the paddock as alot would have sat you down , and i am sure not in a polite fashion.
Take heed of those incidents , both were most likely avoidable , track days are about less than 10 10ths driving leave that for racing.
As for a bill for armoco being a shock , most circuits charge , even uk ones , and especially at Spa i would be surprised if you wern't warned in the briefing .
If you don't want to pay for armoc remember your not racing and adopt a level of driving which leaves a margin for error and therefore help keep trackdays accident free and a safe enviroment for people to enjoy their cars.
Though on the bmw video it would be hard to give a definative "something broke" answer, it would appear very very close to the white line and grasscrete that borders the approach , a light rear end would have certainly speared the car to the right and in fact it looks from the position of the left front to be certainly on the white line.
The driver does not react quickly , and certainly by does not add lock that quickly though this would have not really helped alot as the locked rear brakes didn't help.
Going back to the radical caterham incident , unfortunately the caterham was totally blameless , and to be fair most driver would have far from scarpered as you re entered the paddock as alot would have sat you down , and i am sure not in a polite fashion.
Take heed of those incidents , both were most likely avoidable , track days are about less than 10 10ths driving leave that for racing.
As for a bill for armoco being a shock , most circuits charge , even uk ones , and especially at Spa i would be surprised if you wern't warned in the briefing .
If you don't want to pay for armoc remember your not racing and adopt a level of driving which leaves a margin for error and therefore help keep trackdays accident free and a safe enviroment for people to enjoy their cars.
instructontrack said:
Well after having seen both your threads and both video's your opinions do not seem to add up to the video evidence.
Though on the bmw video it would be hard to give a definative "something broke" answer, it would appear very very close to the white line and grasscrete that borders the approach , a light rear end would have certainly speared the car to the right and in fact it looks from the position of the left front to be certainly on the white line.
The driver does not react quickly , and certainly by does not add lock that quickly though this would have not really helped alot as the locked rear brakes didn't help.
Going back to the radical caterham incident , unfortunately the caterham was totally blameless , and to be fair most driver would have far from scarpered as you re entered the paddock as alot would have sat you down , and i am sure not in a polite fashion.
Take heed of those incidents , both were most likely avoidable , track days are about less than 10 10ths driving leave that for racing.
As for a bill for armoco being a shock , most circuits charge , even uk ones , and especially at Spa i would be surprised if you wern't warned in the briefing .
If you don't want to pay for armoc remember your not racing and adopt a level of driving which leaves a margin for error and therefore help keep trackdays accident free and a safe enviroment for people to enjoy their cars.
thanks instructontrack for your valuable input, but as usual those that were not there always have an opinion base on not all the facts regarding the accident of the alpina. i and others inspected the car on its retun to the pits and the suspension mount on the rear near side had broken away from the chassis. the armco did not cause this damage as not sufficent bodywork or wheel damage was in evidence to witness the load needed to seperate the mounting from the chassis. the wheel steering to the left at that speed caused the crash. it was not first lap out and it was nearing the end of the second day on track.Though on the bmw video it would be hard to give a definative "something broke" answer, it would appear very very close to the white line and grasscrete that borders the approach , a light rear end would have certainly speared the car to the right and in fact it looks from the position of the left front to be certainly on the white line.
The driver does not react quickly , and certainly by does not add lock that quickly though this would have not really helped alot as the locked rear brakes didn't help.
Going back to the radical caterham incident , unfortunately the caterham was totally blameless , and to be fair most driver would have far from scarpered as you re entered the paddock as alot would have sat you down , and i am sure not in a polite fashion.
Take heed of those incidents , both were most likely avoidable , track days are about less than 10 10ths driving leave that for racing.
As for a bill for armoco being a shock , most circuits charge , even uk ones , and especially at Spa i would be surprised if you wern't warned in the briefing .
If you don't want to pay for armoc remember your not racing and adopt a level of driving which leaves a margin for error and therefore help keep trackdays accident free and a safe enviroment for people to enjoy their cars.
as for my incident with the caterham, you are entitled to your own opinion which differs from mine and other. (
equally others agree with you as to who was at fault.
thank you
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