Clubsport with wing setup - gurus needed...
Discussion
I had huge fun at Donington today (in the DRY) playing with suspension and wing settings.
My car is a clubsport with a 2 seat conversion with the addition of a prosport wing. Standard (avo shocks - probably knacked) suspension.
It's predominant characteristic is (was) understeer. So spent the day dialling it out. It was set to softest rear arb setting, 8 clicks allround on the dampers, max gurney, and max wing. No surprise then, the rear is virtually unstickable. Great traction out loads of understeer in.
Ended up with 14 clicks at the back and arb on max hard. This was much better, but still some understeer.
Then in the last hour, our attention turned to the aerodynamics. So we took the wing off (as that is how a clubsport would be). Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee, tons of oversteer.
Then we set the rear softer to 8 clicks and mid position on the arb. Better but still couldn't get the power down (including a big spin in craner).
We then ran out of time. So the question is how to proceed...
I would be surprised if even putting the rear back to full soft on arb and dampers would restore grip at the back. That is strange considering that was how it was built. What's going on there?
As the wing was at its most extreme setting, should I go back down that route and set it to lower downforce to get the grip back at the back?
What generel approach is used to tune wing along with front and rear suspension softness?
I could put the wing back on and add aerodynamics to the front (dive planes?). As it's only a measly (although newly rebuilt) clubsport, it'll barely get along if I have too much drag!
Any thoughts gratefully received!
Bert
My car is a clubsport with a 2 seat conversion with the addition of a prosport wing. Standard (avo shocks - probably knacked) suspension.
It's predominant characteristic is (was) understeer. So spent the day dialling it out. It was set to softest rear arb setting, 8 clicks allround on the dampers, max gurney, and max wing. No surprise then, the rear is virtually unstickable. Great traction out loads of understeer in.
Ended up with 14 clicks at the back and arb on max hard. This was much better, but still some understeer.
Then in the last hour, our attention turned to the aerodynamics. So we took the wing off (as that is how a clubsport would be). Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee, tons of oversteer.
Then we set the rear softer to 8 clicks and mid position on the arb. Better but still couldn't get the power down (including a big spin in craner).
We then ran out of time. So the question is how to proceed...
I would be surprised if even putting the rear back to full soft on arb and dampers would restore grip at the back. That is strange considering that was how it was built. What's going on there?
As the wing was at its most extreme setting, should I go back down that route and set it to lower downforce to get the grip back at the back?
What generel approach is used to tune wing along with front and rear suspension softness?
I could put the wing back on and add aerodynamics to the front (dive planes?). As it's only a measly (although newly rebuilt) clubsport, it'll barely get along if I have too much drag!
Any thoughts gratefully received!
Bert
RobC said:
Bert
Little bit confused by your post and what you are trying to achieve?
it was a bit of a ramble...Little bit confused by your post and what you are trying to achieve?
I am trying to get my head around how to set up with 3 core things which are adjustable...
Front softness/hardness
Rear softness/hardness
Rear downforce (wing and gurney flap)
The car is designed without the wing, so I am trying to decide whether to discard the wing and get a good setup balance as it was designed. Or keep the wing and try.
If I keep the wing, how do I go about playing with the 3 parameters to get a good balance?
Bert
Ok, firstly get rid of the gurney if you are using the wing. The gurney will spoil the air flow under the wing to some extent.
My Clubsport was over 2.5 seconds quicker around Combe with the rear wing and front dive planes. I did loose out slightly in straight line speed but the additional corner speed compensated for that.
One thing to consider is spring rates, remember that the standard spring rates are for a car with minimal downforce. Add a wing that probably produces 200lbs+ of downforce at its peak you can imagine the hard time your springs/dampers are having. Upping just the damping to compensate is bad practice. You need to spring the car so the springs are taking the force and the dampers are then free to control them. Of course upping spring rates might mean you need to look at the valving on the shocks, I dumped my AVO's as soon as I got the car so I don't have any data on them.
If it was me I'd fit the aero kit and then work on sorting the handling out. Unfortunately this is a time consuming past time as the only way you'll get it right is with track time (i.e. test days) If you want some pointers have a look at my site, there is a race diary on there that explains some of the processes I went through when I moved to full aero on the clubsport.
Keep firing the questions and I'll do my best to help
My Clubsport was over 2.5 seconds quicker around Combe with the rear wing and front dive planes. I did loose out slightly in straight line speed but the additional corner speed compensated for that.
One thing to consider is spring rates, remember that the standard spring rates are for a car with minimal downforce. Add a wing that probably produces 200lbs+ of downforce at its peak you can imagine the hard time your springs/dampers are having. Upping just the damping to compensate is bad practice. You need to spring the car so the springs are taking the force and the dampers are then free to control them. Of course upping spring rates might mean you need to look at the valving on the shocks, I dumped my AVO's as soon as I got the car so I don't have any data on them.
If it was me I'd fit the aero kit and then work on sorting the handling out. Unfortunately this is a time consuming past time as the only way you'll get it right is with track time (i.e. test days) If you want some pointers have a look at my site, there is a race diary on there that explains some of the processes I went through when I moved to full aero on the clubsport.
Keep firing the questions and I'll do my best to help
Did Brands yesterday and spent the day playing with the wing and suspension settings. I took the gurney flap off and eventually settled on the wing on its lowest downforce setting with the front (avo) shocks on 8 clicks and the rears on 12. The rear bar was in the middle position.
This improved the understeer into clearways and meant that when I got on the power past the apex, I was balancing slight oversteer with slight power modulation.
That all felt good. I had fantastic brakes (better than everyone I followed) and good (scary) speed through paddock hill bend.
The only bend that didn't feel good was Graham Hill and thats prob me being too keen to get more entry speed and running off every time I do!
So that feels about the best that the setup will get without adding more front downforce or better shocks.
As I am contemplating the radical clubman series next year, I can't really add more downforce or go to Nitrons.
The Avos must be knacked after their working life. Anyone know if they can be rebuilt?
Thanks
Bert
This improved the understeer into clearways and meant that when I got on the power past the apex, I was balancing slight oversteer with slight power modulation.
That all felt good. I had fantastic brakes (better than everyone I followed) and good (scary) speed through paddock hill bend.
The only bend that didn't feel good was Graham Hill and thats prob me being too keen to get more entry speed and running off every time I do!
So that feels about the best that the setup will get without adding more front downforce or better shocks.
As I am contemplating the radical clubman series next year, I can't really add more downforce or go to Nitrons.
The Avos must be knacked after their working life. Anyone know if they can be rebuilt?
Thanks
Bert
and if i could ever match or be quicker i would be on 
but not much chance of that!!! 
hi all
i have spent a long long time on the set up of my sr3 and i am gradually getting it to handle like a racing car. Understeer is inherent in radicals due to the nik link suspension. i am reasonnably clear in my own mind these dont work and are responsible for the understeer. At some point in the future i will swap these for conventional anti roll bars ( of which the clubsport has one at the rear from memory.
I dont want to give to much away but i will say that stiffer springs and get the car much lower will send you in the right direction. Get a proper set up done by an experienced person with knowledge. If you get stuck let me know my guy will do it for you for about £350 and you will not believe the difference. Simply setting the shockers very soft or very hard is not the way forward.
igonore the radical standard set up i have deviated a long way from the recommened settings and the car is getting better and better.
hope this helps
i have spent a long long time on the set up of my sr3 and i am gradually getting it to handle like a racing car. Understeer is inherent in radicals due to the nik link suspension. i am reasonnably clear in my own mind these dont work and are responsible for the understeer. At some point in the future i will swap these for conventional anti roll bars ( of which the clubsport has one at the rear from memory.
I dont want to give to much away but i will say that stiffer springs and get the car much lower will send you in the right direction. Get a proper set up done by an experienced person with knowledge. If you get stuck let me know my guy will do it for you for about £350 and you will not believe the difference. Simply setting the shockers very soft or very hard is not the way forward.
igonore the radical standard set up i have deviated a long way from the recommened settings and the car is getting better and better.
hope this helps
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