Pr6 eligability

[AJWSNR]

I run a pr6 on irish hillclimb circuit.My son drove last week in the sports car class and when he beat most of the cars to be 2nd overall we got a call from scrutineer to challange that pr6 is not a sports car but single seater. They want to move us into class with oms/busa on the basis we were faster.
can anyone point me to msa decision on pr6 qualification as sports racer

[MagicalTrevor]

There is a PR6 that runs in the Sports Libre category in our Sprints. My car is also a centre seat layou but it is actually based on an open wheel racing car so would also have to be moved if the same rules were applied.

There was a conversation about this on uphillracers forum and I think it was generally agreed that centre seat sports racers are just that.

The PR6 is just a fantastic car and ups the game, you've put someone's nose out of joint, that's all.

[mnrvortxf20c]

I run a prosport in sports libre and never had an issue. Main difference is my seat is not central (like the pr6) there was a reg which stated something like the seat should not cross the centre line of the car and that there should be room for a passenger. But I think they have since been removed. The only way it could fall foul is maximum height rule.

[andylaurence]

There's no such thing as a single seater category. There's Racing Cars and there's Sports Libre. A PR6 does not fit into the Racing Cars category because it falls foul of the bodywork rules (S15.1.1). A PR6 does fall into Sports Libre because it meets the following description in S14.1:

14.1. Vehicles that comply with any of the following Groups:
(a) Any vehicle that does not comply with any other category, as defined in 10.10.1 to 10.10.5 or 10.10.7. or 14.1(b) or (c)

Print this out and hand it to the scrutineer with your copy of the Blue Book next time he asks.

[splitpin]

Eh? Said person phones you up after the event to 'challenge' what Class you should have been in i.e. they should have put you in? Where was he on the day? Having his adenoids drained?

Just like its predecessor the Prosport, a PR6 runs in the Sports Libre Class.

It reads to me that he may be one of those Scruts that we can do without i.e. those who put people off rather than encourage them. Thankfully, the majority of them are quite the reverse.

[DaveK-S1]

Do Irish hillclimbs still run to the same rules/regs as the Msa blue book ?

It may be they have a different sets of rules

[LCM]

AJWSNR said:

I run a pr6 on irish hillclimb circuit.My son drove last week in the sports car class and when he beat most of the cars to be 2nd overall we got a call from scrutineer to challange that pr6 is not a sports car but single seater. They want to move us into class with oms/busa on the basis we were faster.
can anyone point me to msa decision on pr6 qualification as sports racer

Despite all the bks spouted here and in paddocks, what people think the regs are or, even worse, used to be but aren't any more, the answer to this (and so many other similar) question(s) lies in the current Blue Book.

Now, it may not be an easy read but if one is going to compete in any form of motor sport run under MSA rules it is the competitors' repsonsbility to understand the regs covering the type of event they are going to compete in and the car they're going to use.

Andy is correct that there is no MSA single seater category just Racing Cars and Sports Libre Cars and the Sports Libre Category is now pretty widely drawn.

Clearly, a PR6 does not meet the definition of "Sports Car" in Section B but it does meet S 14.1.

So, I would ask "did the PR6 meet the regs (MSA and Supplementary) for the class in which it was entered", if not then you don't have a very strong case and could be excluded from the results. Secondly, did the organisers and scrutineer follow the regs in attempting to make a post facto change to your class?

[SportsLibre]

LCM said:

Despite all the bks spouted here and in paddocks, what people think the regs are or, even worse, used to be but aren't any more, the answer to this (and so many other similar) question(s) lies in the current Blue Book.

Now, it may not be an easy read but if one is going to compete in any form of motor sport run under MSA rules it is the competitors' repsonsbility to understand the regs covering the type of event they are going to compete in and the car they're going to use.

Andy is correct that there is no MSA single seater category just Racing Cars and Sports Libre Cars and the Sports Libre Category is now pretty widely drawn.

Clearly, a PR6 does not meet the definition of "Sports Car" in Section B but it does meet S 14.1.

So, I would ask "did the PR6 meet the regs (MSA and Supplementary) for the class in which it was entered", if not then you don't have a very strong case and could be excluded from the results. Secondly, did the organisers and scrutineer follow the regs in attempting to make a post facto change to your class?

This is one of the rare occasions where I fully agree with LCM

[LCM]

SportsLibre said:

This is one of the rare occasions where I fully agree with LCM

Oh come on Angus, stop putting off the inevitable.

Let's get married.

My talent (and inate modesty): your knowledge of the Regs - we'd be unstoppable...................

[AJWSNR]

thanks guys, the class in hillclimbing in Southern Ireland are
class 1 production saloons to 1400cc
class 2 production saloons to 1650
class 3a production saloons 1651 to 2050, mod production saloons to 2050cc, GT to 1650cc and SPORTS CARS to
1200cc
class 3b production modified saloons over 2050 ,gt over 1650 , sports cars 1201 to 2050 and 4 wheel drive rally
cars/production saloons.
class 4 historic/classic
class 5 f/f + formula vee ( old)
class 6 2050 formula libre , single seat racecars to 2050 ( single cam) and single seat racecars to 1650cc
with 2 or more cams
class 7 libre/sports cars unlimited ( has SR8 and Gould GR37 Judds , other open wheeled race cars running 2.5 + engines.


I entered class 3b as it had run a radical SR3 normal aspirated and then turbo for some years. When he purchased SR8 they put him in with the big bangers and he was peed off but took it on the nose.My pal also has a 1400 busa OMS sports car about to go on hills here and unsure. Motorsport Ireland technical book does not define a sports car so I come back to the issue " is a pr6 a racecar or a sports race car.
I cannot compete fairly in class 7 or 3b so I suppose the solution is to fight for a sports car class to take us oddballs.

[LCM]

AJWSNR said:

thanks guys, the class in hillclimbing in Southern Ireland are
class 1 production saloons to 1400cc
class 2 production saloons to 1650
class 3a production saloons 1651 to 2050, mod production saloons to 2050cc, GT to 1650cc and SPORTS CARS to
1200cc
class 3b production modified saloons over 2050 ,gt over 1650 , sports cars 1201 to 2050 and 4 wheel drive rally
cars/production saloons.
class 4 historic/classic
class 5 f/f + formula vee ( old)
class 6 2050 formula libre , single seat racecars to 2050 ( single cam) and single seat racecars to 1650cc
with 2 or more cams
class 7 libre/sports cars unlimited ( has SR8 and Gould GR37 Judds , other open wheeled race cars running 2.5 + engines.


I entered class 3b as it had run a radical SR3 normal aspirated and then turbo for some years. When he purchased SR8 they put him in with the big bangers and he was peed off but took it on the nose.My pal also has a 1400 busa OMS sports car about to go on hills here and unsure. Motorsport Ireland technical book does not define a sports car so I come back to the issue " is a pr6 a racecar or a sports race car.
I cannot compete fairly in class 7 or 3b so I suppose the solution is to fight for a sports car class to take us oddballs.

Blimey!

I've just a had a look at the MI regs for hillclimbs and I promise never to criticise the Blue Book again.

Was I dealing with Lord Atkin's dissenting judgement in the seminal case of Liversidge v. Anderson (1942), or was it Alice and Humpty Dumpty beyond the Looking Glass:

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."

"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."

"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master — that's all."

As MI don't seem to define their terminology it looks like the opinions aired here are as substantial as vapour and the only way you can find out what sort of car MI consider a PR6 to be, is to ask them!

I would suggest doing it formally in writing so that you can wave the answer, whatever it be, at interested officials.

[AJWSNR]

The problem would never have appeared if old dad drove the car instead of giving it hot shot son !!!.
probably get the answer from MI that I don't want to hear. Have emailed Radical for paperwork to be armed for the battle.
do all motorsport fans enjoy a rule tussle?.

What the hell at my age (68) I better make the most of every year. The trophys don't matter ( ugly buggers) as long as I have a ball. maybe I should be in the pensioners class.
Thanks guys for your comments and help

[gixermark]

better still....... forget about the hills - bring it over to the circuits... you'd be most welcome in Irish Libre Grid :-)

Leinster Trophy meeting wk end of 21st Sep, run whatever the hell you like !!

[scooby151]

The hills are more exciting, plus Iron Maiden also have a title track for the sport , RUN TO THE HILLS :-p

[gixermark]

different strokes for different folks... personally i don't think you can match the adrenalin of wheel to wheel racing...

[scooby151]

You are so right Mark, it would be an impossible world if everyone likes the same thing. ;-)

[AJWSNR]

Still in the class 3b after a battle quoting elagability of pr6 sold as sports racer by radical. on knockalla last weekend son got to 3rd fastest behind ( fraction of a second ) sr8 and 2.5 lant driven by Simon mckinly. Anyone using a supercharger on a
1600 busa ?

[AJWSNR]

Still in the class 3b after a battle quoting elagability of pr6 sold as sports racer by radical. on knockalla last weekend son got to 3rd fastest behind ( fraction of a second ) sr8 and 2.5 lant driven by Simon mckinly. Anyone using a supercharger on a
1600 busa ?

[andylaurence]

AJWSNR said:

Anyone using a supercharger on a 1600 busa ?

Not for long. My understanding is that they don't last long in 1600 guise. Most people using forced induction are sticking to the standard bore/stroke.

[gixermark]

what CC are you guys running now ?

sounds like you guys are going well... I always fancied Knockalla awesome place up there