Clubsport vs SR3
Discussion
A bit of an odd comparison you might think but it is coming up as a Q increasingly often. So here goes.
Basic Dims:
SR3 - WxL = 1800mm x 4200mm, Mass = ~700kg
Clubsport - WxL = 1554mm x 3675mm, Mass = ~ 425kg to 500kg depending on what's been put on and what's been taken off!
Aero
In its early days Radical's aero designs were pretty unsophisticated but they kinda worked!
The Clubsport in standard format (simple front splitter, open front floor, no diffuser, Gurney flap on the rear deck) is not a high downforce car but has a pretty good aero balance and good mechanical grip. Panelling in the open front quadrants and adding a diffuser will increase downforce with little effect on drag and any change in balance should be easily correctable by means of the Gurney. To get even more downforce means using a PR6 or LCM style diffuser front under tray (the LCM one is slightly more sophisticated as it also enhances general underbody downforce) with extractor side pods. This will generate significant front end downforce and will require a rear wing to restore aero balance. A good thick section high camber wing in 230-250mm chord should suffice and a flap should not be necessary. The rear wing can either be fitted conventionally on a Big R type wing tower or as a Fowler Flap. A rear wing on a tower will create significant drag (it will cost you around 5mph + at 100mph) a Fowler flap however will cause only a small increase in drag. Sadly, any fool can fit a wing on a tower but setting up a Fowler Flap is a much more skilled task which is possibly why we see so few! The final trim (or last few Ns of total downforce) is then achieved by means of deep RWEPs and Gurney strips on wing and RWEP TEs at the rear and dive planes at the front.
Thus equipped a Clubsport will generate around PR6 levels of downforce.
If you want to see a fully kitted Clubsport with high wing or Fowler flap then PM me and I'll send you some pix
The SR3 RS in standard form is a more sophisticated aero package but is orientated towards high speed aero.
Overall, the Clubsport is a small nimble package that can either be driven neat and smooth or chucked about pretty roughly without biting back. The SR3 on the other hand rewards a smoother driving style and carrying speed through corners. On the hills a Clubsport can give years of reasonably competitive enjoyment, just ask Angus Buchan, (of course, it will never match a Force) whereas an SR3 is just too big and heavy and its natural domain is the high speed circuit.
Basic Dims:
SR3 - WxL = 1800mm x 4200mm, Mass = ~700kg
Clubsport - WxL = 1554mm x 3675mm, Mass = ~ 425kg to 500kg depending on what's been put on and what's been taken off!
Aero
In its early days Radical's aero designs were pretty unsophisticated but they kinda worked!
The Clubsport in standard format (simple front splitter, open front floor, no diffuser, Gurney flap on the rear deck) is not a high downforce car but has a pretty good aero balance and good mechanical grip. Panelling in the open front quadrants and adding a diffuser will increase downforce with little effect on drag and any change in balance should be easily correctable by means of the Gurney. To get even more downforce means using a PR6 or LCM style diffuser front under tray (the LCM one is slightly more sophisticated as it also enhances general underbody downforce) with extractor side pods. This will generate significant front end downforce and will require a rear wing to restore aero balance. A good thick section high camber wing in 230-250mm chord should suffice and a flap should not be necessary. The rear wing can either be fitted conventionally on a Big R type wing tower or as a Fowler Flap. A rear wing on a tower will create significant drag (it will cost you around 5mph + at 100mph) a Fowler flap however will cause only a small increase in drag. Sadly, any fool can fit a wing on a tower but setting up a Fowler Flap is a much more skilled task which is possibly why we see so few! The final trim (or last few Ns of total downforce) is then achieved by means of deep RWEPs and Gurney strips on wing and RWEP TEs at the rear and dive planes at the front.
Thus equipped a Clubsport will generate around PR6 levels of downforce.
If you want to see a fully kitted Clubsport with high wing or Fowler flap then PM me and I'll send you some pix
The SR3 RS in standard form is a more sophisticated aero package but is orientated towards high speed aero.
Overall, the Clubsport is a small nimble package that can either be driven neat and smooth or chucked about pretty roughly without biting back. The SR3 on the other hand rewards a smoother driving style and carrying speed through corners. On the hills a Clubsport can give years of reasonably competitive enjoyment, just ask Angus Buchan, (of course, it will never match a Force) whereas an SR3 is just too big and heavy and its natural domain is the high speed circuit.
My Clubsport has served me well.
I won my first regional Speed championship mixture of Hills and short sprints in the first season with the completely standard car, no Aero.
Later I go fed up with the car destroying the super soft hillclimb tyres partuclarly on the front and bought some second hand wider wheels, this allowed wider tyres and stopped the destruction and greatly reduced the understeer.
Later meeting LCM he sold me the basic front quadrants and rear undertray to help enclose the floor along with the standard diveplanes (not sure these actually do much other than break up the airflow to help reduce the natural lifting wing effect of the body shape).
I have never felt the need to fit a rear wing or that rear grip was the limiting factor, in fact I am sure the extra drag would out-way any benefits for a ZZR powered car. I do tend to fit into the smooth and precise rather than the rough and ragged type of driver
Engine wise the only problems I have had was an aborted venture with an 1166 ZZR from a sidecar racer that wnd BANG on the first competitive outing, puting back the Radical engine the gearbox eventualy started jumping (felt for all the world like the chain was jumping teeth), luckily I could swap it for the one from the 1166.
After a couple of years the inevitable wish for MORE kicked in and I fitted the ZX14, that was 6 years ago.
In all the Clubsport has won me two different regional Speed championships (both twice), one FTD, countless class victories, and a big handful of points in the British Sprint Championship even beating some big V8 powered race cars on the comparatively tight and twisty venues.
It will never win against the new breed of Force LM etc at the National Hillclimb level, but at Club and Regional events it is still very competitive.
Angus
I won my first regional Speed championship mixture of Hills and short sprints in the first season with the completely standard car, no Aero.
Later I go fed up with the car destroying the super soft hillclimb tyres partuclarly on the front and bought some second hand wider wheels, this allowed wider tyres and stopped the destruction and greatly reduced the understeer.
Later meeting LCM he sold me the basic front quadrants and rear undertray to help enclose the floor along with the standard diveplanes (not sure these actually do much other than break up the airflow to help reduce the natural lifting wing effect of the body shape).
I have never felt the need to fit a rear wing or that rear grip was the limiting factor, in fact I am sure the extra drag would out-way any benefits for a ZZR powered car. I do tend to fit into the smooth and precise rather than the rough and ragged type of driver
Engine wise the only problems I have had was an aborted venture with an 1166 ZZR from a sidecar racer that wnd BANG on the first competitive outing, puting back the Radical engine the gearbox eventualy started jumping (felt for all the world like the chain was jumping teeth), luckily I could swap it for the one from the 1166.
After a couple of years the inevitable wish for MORE kicked in and I fitted the ZX14, that was 6 years ago.
In all the Clubsport has won me two different regional Speed championships (both twice), one FTD, countless class victories, and a big handful of points in the British Sprint Championship even beating some big V8 powered race cars on the comparatively tight and twisty venues.
It will never win against the new breed of Force LM etc at the National Hillclimb level, but at Club and Regional events it is still very competitive.Angus
Edited by SportsLibre on Thursday 30th May 22:37
Edited by SportsLibre on Thursday 30th May 22:49
mnrvortxf20c said:
thanks LCM. if a clubsport had very few aero mods and weighed in circa 425kgs and still handelled well would the extra 75kgs be worth it for the aero?
A full aero package in carbon and light GRP (for things like the FUT which has to be considered a disposable component you wouldn't use carbon) is unlikely to involve more than a 25kg increase in mass (you'd be replacing heavy BIG R sidepods with much lighter Carbon/light GRP items). On top of the underbody (see below) you're only adding a FUT (<5kg), a rear wing @ say 3kg ( I've just weighed a 1650x400 with saddles at 3.5kg and you only need 1560x230 for a Clubsport), a wing tower @ say 5kg and RWEPs/Gurneys/dive planes (say 1.5kg the lot), unless of course you're planning to follow my strategy and spend the money you save on pies........If I were just doing circuits then I'd simply panel in the front quadrants and fit a rear diffuser which would be <10kg (and < £400 if you buy right) and save the drag.
For UK hills, I'd be tempted to do the same if I just had an 1100 engine. Angus now has a 1400 Kwakker but basically runs in this config. A few years ago DSL and I exchanged figures on here of our best times up Loton, he in his totally non aero Busa Caterham and me in my high downforce Prosport (with similar engines). There wasn't a tenth between us!
I am a big fan of the Clubbie. It's simple, robust, has really fun handling and (for a racing car) is CHEAP to buy and run. If you're on a budget it's the way to go (although prices do seem to be rising again these days).
That's a great thumbs-up for the wonderful Clubbie!
For a long time, the main topic of conversation seems to have been "How much should I 'Prosportise' my Clubbie?" I'm now thinking that in terms of H&S whether the more pertinent question is "How much should I Clubtise my Prosport?"
Less Is More springs to mind.
For a long time, the main topic of conversation seems to have been "How much should I 'Prosportise' my Clubbie?" I'm now thinking that in terms of H&S whether the more pertinent question is "How much should I Clubtise my Prosport?"
Less Is More springs to mind.
another thing im struggling with is that i cant find a rule in the blue book saying they are not compatible with modified specialist production class, in the sprint/hillclimbs
i have brought this point up before.and the general rule was radical had not made enough cars in a 12 month period! but for this class its only 20 chassis per year?
anyone give me a specific rule which means it must be sports libre? cheers
i have brought this point up before.and the general rule was radical had not made enough cars in a 12 month period! but for this class its only 20 chassis per year?
anyone give me a specific rule which means it must be sports libre? cheers
mnrvortxf20c said:
another thing im struggling with is that i cant find a rule in the blue book saying they are not compatible with modified specialist production class, in the sprint/hillclimbs
i have brought this point up before.and the general rule was radical had not made enough cars in a 12 month period! but for this class its only 20 chassis per year?
anyone give me a specific rule which means it must be sports libre? cheers
Radicals are Sports Racing cars. i have brought this point up before.and the general rule was radical had not made enough cars in a 12 month period! but for this class its only 20 chassis per year?
anyone give me a specific rule which means it must be sports libre? cheers
S14.1c defines sports racing cars as being within the Sports Libre category.
Plus, Production and Specialist Production categories are for cars originally produced as roadgoing vehicles (if they weren't then I could enter a Lola built Indycar (or Dallara F3) with mudguards or an Oreca built Formula LM in Specialist Production categories). Big R haven't previously built 20 roadgoing chassis for a single model in a year.
So with all the above in my mind now, altho im only a track dayer so no major gain for me, would i enjoy the car more with better aero? altho its had a few changes from standard. The front sections were already filled in with aluminium from the bottom of the crash box (thought i had a pic but cant find it)it also has an Arc Angel rear diffuser, rear wing and dive planes(not fitted in pic)
Will there be a huge increase from different side pods & Wing end plates? and even wheel arch louvres.
Will there be a huge increase from different side pods & Wing end plates? and even wheel arch louvres.
Edited by Steve57 on Friday 31st May 14:23
Steve57 said:
So with all the above in my mind now, altho im only a track dayer so no major gain for me, would i enjoy the car more with better aero? altho its had a few changes from standard. The front sections were already filled in with aluminium from the bottom of the crash box (thought i had a pic but cant find it)it also has an Arc Angel rear diffuser, rear wing and dive planes(not fitted in pic)
Will there be a huge increase from different side pods & Wing end plates? and even wheel arch louvres.
Would you enjoy the car more? A difficult one for this forum - can I suggest that you try DrLCounselling.com? Alternatively you might like to buy a copy of my self-help book "Dr L's Little Book of Motorsport Affirmations".Will there be a huge increase from different side pods & Wing end plates? and even wheel arch louvres.
Edited by Steve57 on Friday 31st May 14:23
Anyway, to be serious for a moment, who was it who said that "a picture paints a thousand words"? (in that exact form it was not a Chinese proverb but David Gates in the Lyrics of Bread's 1971 hit "If"). Anyway, your picture is worth a thousand words (or more).
If I told you that the lift/drag ratio of a good floor was around 10 and that of a wing around 2 and that the underfloor Bernoulli effect depends on mass flow what would you say about your car? I hope you would say that the front splitter is on the ground and that there is therefore no mass flow under the car and so you are not using the most efficient source of downforce! I would have a good look at my chassis settings to find out why I'm dragging the splitter on the ground (Ride height too low? Springs too soft?)
I can't see the Josh's Friends' diffuser in the picture but with it on the car and the front end as you describe I would expect the car to have inherent understeer (the COP of the floor with diffuser is likely to be on or slightly behind the COM, you have a rear wing adding downforce behind the rear axle thus setting up a turning moment around that axle and only a splitter generating downforce ahead of the front axle).
What would I do to maximise my happiness?
1 - leave the front as it is but make sure that there is a good clean pathway under the car to the rear diffuser, take the rear wing off and fit a decent Gurney flap to the rear deck (I designed a range of 60deg adjustable carbon Gurneys that work really well with diffused Clubsports) OR
2 - fit a diffuser FUT and extractor side pods from Josh's Friends or Martyn @ MVS (both of which have a central air channel to continue to feed the floor with air under dive) and leave the rear wing in place using deep RWEPs, Gurney strips and thin foil front dive planes to tune the aero balance AND
3 - use £120 of the money I'd saved to buy a bottle of Hennessy XO
4 - not bother mucking about with the wheel arch louvres (the science is too complicated and the results too uncertain)
LCM said:
Would you enjoy the car more? A difficult one for this forum - can I suggest that you try DrLCounselling.com? Alternatively you might like to buy a copy of my self-help book "Dr L's Little Book of Motorsport Affirmations".
Anyway, to be serious for a moment, who was it who said that "a picture paints a thousand words"? (in that exact form it was not a Chinese proverb but David Gates in the Lyrics of Bread's 1971 hit "If"). Anyway, your picture is worth a thousand words (or more).
If I told you that the lift/drag ratio of a good floor was around 10 and that of a wing around 2 and that the underfloor Bernoulli effect depends on mass flow what would you say about your car? I hope you would say that the front splitter is on the ground and that there is therefore no mass flow under the car and so you are not using the most efficient source of downforce! I would have a good look at my chassis settings to find out why I'm dragging the splitter on the ground (Ride height too low? Springs too soft?)
I can't see the Josh's Friends' diffuser in the picture but with it on the car and the front end as you describe I would expect the car to have inherent understeer (the COP of the floor with diffuser is likely to be on or slightly behind the COM, you have a rear wing adding downforce behind the rear axle thus setting up a turning moment around that axle and only a splitter generating downforce ahead of the front axle).
What would I do to maximise my happiness?
1 - leave the front as it is but make sure that there is a good clean pathway under the car to the rear diffuser, take the rear wing off and fit a decent Gurney flap to the rear deck (I designed a range of 60deg adjustable carbon Gurneys that work really well with diffused Clubsports) OR
2 - fit a diffuser FUT and extractor side pods from Josh's Friends or Martyn @ MVS (both of which have a central air channel to continue to feed the floor with air under dive) and leave the rear wing in place using deep RWEPs, Gurney strips and thin foil front dive planes to tune the aero balance AND
3 - use £120 of the money I'd saved to buy a bottle of Hennessy XO
4 - not bother mucking about with the wheel arch louvres (the science is too complicated and the results too uncertain)
Lots of food for thought cheers,Anyway, to be serious for a moment, who was it who said that "a picture paints a thousand words"? (in that exact form it was not a Chinese proverb but David Gates in the Lyrics of Bread's 1971 hit "If"). Anyway, your picture is worth a thousand words (or more).
If I told you that the lift/drag ratio of a good floor was around 10 and that of a wing around 2 and that the underfloor Bernoulli effect depends on mass flow what would you say about your car? I hope you would say that the front splitter is on the ground and that there is therefore no mass flow under the car and so you are not using the most efficient source of downforce! I would have a good look at my chassis settings to find out why I'm dragging the splitter on the ground (Ride height too low? Springs too soft?)
I can't see the Josh's Friends' diffuser in the picture but with it on the car and the front end as you describe I would expect the car to have inherent understeer (the COP of the floor with diffuser is likely to be on or slightly behind the COM, you have a rear wing adding downforce behind the rear axle thus setting up a turning moment around that axle and only a splitter generating downforce ahead of the front axle).
What would I do to maximise my happiness?
1 - leave the front as it is but make sure that there is a good clean pathway under the car to the rear diffuser, take the rear wing off and fit a decent Gurney flap to the rear deck (I designed a range of 60deg adjustable carbon Gurneys that work really well with diffused Clubsports) OR
2 - fit a diffuser FUT and extractor side pods from Josh's Friends or Martyn @ MVS (both of which have a central air channel to continue to feed the floor with air under dive) and leave the rear wing in place using deep RWEPs, Gurney strips and thin foil front dive planes to tune the aero balance AND
3 - use £120 of the money I'd saved to buy a bottle of Hennessy XO
4 - not bother mucking about with the wheel arch louvres (the science is too complicated and the results too uncertain)
The above picture was my very first outing @ the ROC BHGP a few years ago now, The front splitter was destroyed that day funny enough. think it was a combo of slightly too low along with no splitter supports as you can see the splitter being pushed down in the picture, i have another fitted now that isnt the long version as pictured but does have some supports so hopefully i shouldn't be grounding that out now.
altho looking at this pic http://www.fresh-orange.co.uk/picpopup.asp?imageid...
this probably still need addressing as under load it is dropping somewhat.
If you have details of the gurney feel free to fire a mail over as will possibly go that route along with removing the rear wing,
Steve
LCM said:
3 - use £120 of the money I'd saved to buy a bottle of Hennessy XO
Whilst I know you are extremely knowledgeable on these matters, might I suggest in this case this should be step 1? It would guarantee a nice evening thinking about all this and I find it helps the internet shopping afterwards enormously.Though it is fair to say I did end up buying an R2D2 telephone on QVC by doing this.
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