SR3 RS Idle problems
Discussion
Hi - I'm new to the world of Radicals, having just bought an SR3 upgraded to high downforce RS spec with a new 1500 engine in it. Plan is to track day it this year with a view to racing it next year. I'm off to Snetterton this Thursday (April 18th), but the car is refusing to idle properly. I did a shakedown in a mate's car park the other day to get used to the basics of the car, and even with the water temperature fully up and the oil temperature getting there, the car would not maintain an idle without me sitting there on the throttle.
I presume this isn't normal?
Any pointers?
I presume this isn't normal?
Any pointers?
No, not yet. I know that's the obvious fix, but often doing so just masks the actual problem - i.e. it keeps the revs up enough to stop it from stalling, but only by revving it over the normal idle speed. Which is what by the way? I seem to remember 1350 being mentioned somewhere?
I was posting in case anybody say "Oh yes, that's a maladjusted flange mate, they all do that" or something...
I was posting in case anybody say "Oh yes, that's a maladjusted flange mate, they all do that" or something...
Could just be a case of not being quite so used to a bike based engine? I.e. lack of flywheel, balancer shafts removed, revs to 10K plus, plus they aren't that keen on idling until they've got a bit of heat in them?
Get it up to temp (oil and water) and then set the idle to say 1500rpm or thereabouts, bit more or less as you prefer.
Have a great time @ Snett ............... prepare to be amazed (with no way back!)
Get it up to temp (oil and water) and then set the idle to say 1500rpm or thereabouts, bit more or less as you prefer.
Have a great time @ Snett ............... prepare to be amazed (with no way back!)
Cheers all. It is indeed my first experience of bike-engined cars. I've done plenty of track days in my old Westfield, TVRs and Evo, before writing the Evo (a X FQ360) off at Silverstone last year due to doing 8 flat-out laps of the full GP circuit on standard road tyres. By the end it was like driving on greased ball-bearings lying on top of ice. Great fun, in a sideways sort of way, but I got into a tank-slapper at Copse at 100+ and speared *inwards*, straight into the Armco, breaking five posts... And it was my wife's car, and she was sat next to me at the time!
So I decided that I'd had it with road cars on tracks, as you just hit the car's limits too easily, as they're out of their comfort zone. Hence the Radical.
I've had quite a bit of formal track training, so I'm not a novice by any means, but I'm still pretty nervous of this beast on Thursday!
Anyway, idle-wise, it is really nowhere near able to idle. It's not that it settles down to something really lumpy and then stalls - it instantly cuts out the moment you take your foot off the throttle. And this was even with the water temperature fully up (but the oil temperature still only at about 50 as the car was stationary, so the rads weren't getting a chance to cool the water). Doesn't seem right.
I'll try fiddling with the idle screw and see what happens.
So I decided that I'd had it with road cars on tracks, as you just hit the car's limits too easily, as they're out of their comfort zone. Hence the Radical.
I've had quite a bit of formal track training, so I'm not a novice by any means, but I'm still pretty nervous of this beast on Thursday!
Anyway, idle-wise, it is really nowhere near able to idle. It's not that it settles down to something really lumpy and then stalls - it instantly cuts out the moment you take your foot off the throttle. And this was even with the water temperature fully up (but the oil temperature still only at about 50 as the car was stationary, so the rads weren't getting a chance to cool the water). Doesn't seem right.
I'll try fiddling with the idle screw and see what happens.
On a different topic altogether, when I got my first SR3, noone told me how hard it was to get the bigger (than a clubsport) slicks up to temp with proper grip. Brand new slicks are even worse.
Not sure if such advice is needed, but I would have preferred the good advice than the trip backwards into the armco!
Bert
Not sure if such advice is needed, but I would have preferred the good advice than the trip backwards into the armco!
Bert
Batwick2 said:
Thanks for the pointer, as yes, it's got the proper jobs on it (and a set of wets). I was sort of assuming that this would be case, but it's very helpful to have to confirmed for me.
When you go out on the new slicks it feels vile. Also as you drive out of the pitlane when they are new and cold, you will have no grip. You regularly see people on the green flag lap spinning off and actually skilled people do it, not just muppets like me! Work the tyres in a straight line before beginning to lean on them. The prescribed hot operating pressures are 28psi. To get to that when they are hot you'd start at low 20s, but that also exacerbates the time to get them working properly. So you could start at 25 for example which will get them going quicker. Do a few laps and bleed pressure off to 28 as they'll get too high from 25.Have fun tomorrow and keep it on the black stuff!
Bert
Sorry if you know all that!
I ended-up doing six sessions, including the last one in rain, hail and lightning!
Idle speed was absolutely fine in the end, once the oil was up. Just a pain in the ass sat there having to manually maintain the throttle whilst it gets there.
Conclusion? Car is unequivocally amazing. Me? about down the centre, in terms of expectations. I wasn't intimidated or overwhelmed by it, and I was up to *my* pace within half a lap. However *my* pace was not spectacular compared to what the car was capable of. But I know where I'm slow, and I know what I need to do to fix it. In theory! Actually doing so is a very different matter though. I go into slow bends too fast and end up understeering or generally being all over the place, and I brake too early for medium speed bends. Still it's going to be a whole lotta fun improving!
Difficult to accurately judge pace yesterday as the event had been hijacked by over 40 full-race Caterhams using it as a practice day for a race meet (the organisers actually emailed us offering us a free change to a different date because of this). I was generally able to hold them off until I felt guilty, as I knew that I was getting in their way, so every now and again I pulled over and let them past.
I did the first couple of sessions on wets, as they were already on the car, and then switched to the slicks - wow, you were NOT kidding were you?! It felt like I was on ice. I spun four times under braking into slow corners (the difference between the wets and cold slicks was like night and day), and once when feeding in the power onto the main straight when the back power-oversteered away from me in an instant. That was a 100mph spin...
So I'm going to need to get a bit quicker before trying them again. You did warn me though! Unfortunately I didn't see your more detailed reply before yesterdat however.
I managed to hit 10,000rpm (10,500 redline) in 6th on the back straight, which depending on gearing is presumably 150+.
My neck hurts from the 2g turns today though, and my shoulders and arms from muscling the car around them. Best hot bath of my life when I got to the hotel last night!
All excellent stuff, and I am VERY pleased that I bought the thing.
Idle speed was absolutely fine in the end, once the oil was up. Just a pain in the ass sat there having to manually maintain the throttle whilst it gets there.
Conclusion? Car is unequivocally amazing. Me? about down the centre, in terms of expectations. I wasn't intimidated or overwhelmed by it, and I was up to *my* pace within half a lap. However *my* pace was not spectacular compared to what the car was capable of. But I know where I'm slow, and I know what I need to do to fix it. In theory! Actually doing so is a very different matter though. I go into slow bends too fast and end up understeering or generally being all over the place, and I brake too early for medium speed bends. Still it's going to be a whole lotta fun improving!
Difficult to accurately judge pace yesterday as the event had been hijacked by over 40 full-race Caterhams using it as a practice day for a race meet (the organisers actually emailed us offering us a free change to a different date because of this). I was generally able to hold them off until I felt guilty, as I knew that I was getting in their way, so every now and again I pulled over and let them past.
I did the first couple of sessions on wets, as they were already on the car, and then switched to the slicks - wow, you were NOT kidding were you?! It felt like I was on ice. I spun four times under braking into slow corners (the difference between the wets and cold slicks was like night and day), and once when feeding in the power onto the main straight when the back power-oversteered away from me in an instant. That was a 100mph spin...
So I'm going to need to get a bit quicker before trying them again. You did warn me though! Unfortunately I didn't see your more detailed reply before yesterdat however.
I managed to hit 10,000rpm (10,500 redline) in 6th on the back straight, which depending on gearing is presumably 150+.
My neck hurts from the 2g turns today though, and my shoulders and arms from muscling the car around them. Best hot bath of my life when I got to the hotel last night!
All excellent stuff, and I am VERY pleased that I bought the thing.
Sounds like a brilliant day out and well done for getting it there and not having any nasty mishaps with the spins.
The learning might be sped up by getting someone experienced in the art of Radicals to go along with you. There's plenty of people who know how they work and how to get them to do their thing really well. There's no real black art stuff, just will short circuit the process.
Sadly your 10k rpm will be 130+ rather than 150+, not that it matters!
Bert
The learning might be sped up by getting someone experienced in the art of Radicals to go along with you. There's plenty of people who know how they work and how to get them to do their thing really well. There's no real black art stuff, just will short circuit the process.
Sadly your 10k rpm will be 130+ rather than 150+, not that it matters!
Bert
Sounds great, told you ............. hooked.
Just one thing reading what you've said (at face value) ........... just to be sure, you only use wets on a Rad when it's properly wet - like having recently pee'd/still relatively peeing it down. All the rest of the time (even when the track is slightly damp rather than wet) it's slicks, which means properly knowing your car and it's tyres when it's damp
By far the best technique for brand new dry slicks is just to scrub them in reasonably gently (and no lock-ups), then take them off immediately and leave to stand sidewall down for as near a full 24 hours as you can; doing that will give you good (sensational) grip next time out and maximise overall life.
Just one thing reading what you've said (at face value) ........... just to be sure, you only use wets on a Rad when it's properly wet - like having recently pee'd/still relatively peeing it down. All the rest of the time (even when the track is slightly damp rather than wet) it's slicks, which means properly knowing your car and it's tyres when it's damp
By far the best technique for brand new dry slicks is just to scrub them in reasonably gently (and no lock-ups), then take them off immediately and leave to stand sidewall down for as near a full 24 hours as you can; doing that will give you good (sensational) grip next time out and maximise overall life.
Coz Trev and I normally disagree on everything...
You can use Dunlop wets pretty much as inters. In contrast to Trev, I STRONGLY suggest, if in doubt use wets.
As Fluxie said to me..."you t
t, you just risked writing off your car with some mistaken idea that slicks would work. If it's not dry, don't use them. Wreck a set of wets at £1000 rather than a 25k rebuild for the car."
Sorry Trev.
Bert
You can use Dunlop wets pretty much as inters. In contrast to Trev, I STRONGLY suggest, if in doubt use wets.
As Fluxie said to me..."you t
t, you just risked writing off your car with some mistaken idea that slicks would work. If it's not dry, don't use them. Wreck a set of wets at £1000 rather than a 25k rebuild for the car."Sorry Trev.
Bert
Cheers guys - excellent encouraging feedback.
The slicks had already been scrubbed-in - allegedly by Alex Sims - so I've not got that excuse either!
The wets did seem to react like I'd naively expect inters to work - they gripped pretty well, but definitely suffered very badly. All the grooves are now melted and smeared across.
I think my approach should be to get to the liimit of my own ability (I know I've got plenty of headroom before I even begin to feel that I don't know how to improve), and *then* to take professional advice. Otherwise it's overwhelming and you're trying to learn too much at once. Fill in you own gaps and then address what is still left (which will be plenty).
And above all, enjoy the process!
The slicks had already been scrubbed-in - allegedly by Alex Sims - so I've not got that excuse either!
The wets did seem to react like I'd naively expect inters to work - they gripped pretty well, but definitely suffered very badly. All the grooves are now melted and smeared across.
I think my approach should be to get to the liimit of my own ability (I know I've got plenty of headroom before I even begin to feel that I don't know how to improve), and *then* to take professional advice. Otherwise it's overwhelming and you're trying to learn too much at once. Fill in you own gaps and then address what is still left (which will be plenty).
And above all, enjoy the process!
Incidentally, it was the rears what gave way each time. Under braking, the rears locked up and I slowly spun as the rear lost grip and my angular momentum got the better of me (each time on hairpins or near-hairpins), and the one time under power, it was obviously the rears. Up until the last time, I pondered as to whether it was just brake balance needing tweaking. But the last time was after about 10 miles of my idea of caning it (which equates to "Not totally embarassing myself in amongst a field of semi-pro Caterham race drivers", and they still let go like ball-bearings on ice as I fed the power in, but more tentatively so than with the wets on all the previous laps.
Does it make sense to you expert chaps then that the same brake bias that felt perfect on the wets (in the dry) was too rearward for the (not quite warmed-up) slicks then?
Fiddling with it was going to be my next step, but I didn't get that far due to coming back in before I killed myself (the spin under power coming onto the back straight was pretty hairy as I was heading for that Armco at quite a rate of knots) and swapping back to wets.
Fiddling with it was going to be my next step, but I didn't get that far due to coming back in before I killed myself (the spin under power coming onto the back straight was pretty hairy as I was heading for that Armco at quite a rate of knots) and swapping back to wets.
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