Full throttle up-shift question
Discussion
I have the stick shift set up. Does anybody know if the Radical ECU allows for a micro engine kill switch to be installed to allow full throttle up-shifting?
I don't have the money to buy the full paddle-shift set up and this would be a very economic way to gain some time during shifting.
I don't have the money to buy the full paddle-shift set up and this would be a very economic way to gain some time during shifting.
How much time do you expect to save on the upshift? I thought the main advantage of paddles was on the way down with many more options going into a corner with just the brake to deal with and 2 hands on the wheel.
With the upshift being clutchless and the right foot doing the throttle cut, there's really no time to be made.
Bert
With the upshift being clutchless and the right foot doing the throttle cut, there's really no time to be made.
Bert
I would think a full throttle up shift would be at least 0.1 sec faster than the off throttle shift. On my track that will translate easily to a second a lap. I am not sure if during down shift a lot of time can be saved. When down shifting you are off the throttle anyway. With an average heel and toe technique I have generally plenty of time to shift down without sacrificing any time. In my other car the paddle shift may give me very marginally better times on the down shift as I can concentrate on maximizing breaking than my current heel and toe shifting.
are pretty cheap and give you both.I hate to cloud the issue with facts but.........................................
A couple of years ago I posted on here some results of fitting clutch-less systems to bike engined Rs. Unfortunately the Search facility is so good that I can't find them now.
However, I think that Bert^2 is a little like the Copenhagen interpretation of Erwin Schrodinger's thought experiment involving a box, a cat, a radioactive source and a flask of poison - simultaneously right and not right!
Using a conventional gear lever, rather than paddles, with an ignition cut box and in-line load sensor, I have found that there are gains to be made on the up-shift but they amount to a few tenths per minute of 10/10s running on a technical course (so lots of gear changes). If you subscribe to the Dave Brailsford school of performance development and tenths matter (as they do in speed events), then you will happily exchange a few hundred Earth Pounds for a handful of tenths.
But, both B^2 and CJ are right that the BIG gains are to be made on down-shifts. Again, using a conventional gear lever, I have found that I can gain a second or more per minute on a tight technical track through sustained maximum braking effort right into a corner. This is achieved by eliminating the inevitable reduction in pedal pressure that comes from heel and toe operations, avoiding the risk of locked rear wheels and gaining ergonomic benefits by allowing the driver to concentrate/focus more on late, aggressive braking on the right line (for the possibility of a malfunction in the heel/toe/hand sequence inevitably leads to braking that is earlier and gentler than possible).
Finally, let us not confuse paddles with full throttle/clutch-less gear shift systems. One is the initiator and the other the facilitator and there is no necessary mutual dependency - I am familiar with a couple of cars that have paddle initiators but no clutch-less facilitator/executor, relying instead on feet and pedals to do the necessary. Clumsy, but their owners manage to drive them. I use both initiator systems (paddles on my SR8 and stick on BERCs) and my personal preference is (marginally) for the paddles on a fast, open track and the gear stick on a tight slow one.
A couple of years ago I posted on here some results of fitting clutch-less systems to bike engined Rs. Unfortunately the Search facility is so good that I can't find them now.
However, I think that Bert^2 is a little like the Copenhagen interpretation of Erwin Schrodinger's thought experiment involving a box, a cat, a radioactive source and a flask of poison - simultaneously right and not right!
Using a conventional gear lever, rather than paddles, with an ignition cut box and in-line load sensor, I have found that there are gains to be made on the up-shift but they amount to a few tenths per minute of 10/10s running on a technical course (so lots of gear changes). If you subscribe to the Dave Brailsford school of performance development and tenths matter (as they do in speed events), then you will happily exchange a few hundred Earth Pounds for a handful of tenths.
But, both B^2 and CJ are right that the BIG gains are to be made on down-shifts. Again, using a conventional gear lever, I have found that I can gain a second or more per minute on a tight technical track through sustained maximum braking effort right into a corner. This is achieved by eliminating the inevitable reduction in pedal pressure that comes from heel and toe operations, avoiding the risk of locked rear wheels and gaining ergonomic benefits by allowing the driver to concentrate/focus more on late, aggressive braking on the right line (for the possibility of a malfunction in the heel/toe/hand sequence inevitably leads to braking that is earlier and gentler than possible).
Finally, let us not confuse paddles with full throttle/clutch-less gear shift systems. One is the initiator and the other the facilitator and there is no necessary mutual dependency - I am familiar with a couple of cars that have paddle initiators but no clutch-less facilitator/executor, relying instead on feet and pedals to do the necessary. Clumsy, but their owners manage to drive them. I use both initiator systems (paddles on my SR8 and stick on BERCs) and my personal preference is (marginally) for the paddles on a fast, open track and the gear stick on a tight slow one.
LCM said:
I hate to cloud the issue with facts but.........................................
Awesome quote from George Banks in Mary Poppins!LCM said:
However, I think that Bert^2 is a little like the Copenhagen interpretation of Erwin Schrodinger's thought experiment involving a box, a cat, a radioactive source and a flask of poison - simultaneously right and not right!
I'll take that as a compliment then!B^2
Just do a google search instead lads and use 'pistonheads' in the search term. "Pistonheads flatshifter radical" gave it as the first hit:-
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=1&a...
Page 2 for some good old fashioned fact from LCM.
Dunc
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=1&a...
Page 2 for some good old fashioned fact from LCM.
Dunc
Edited by dunc_sx on Friday 19th October 14:01
dunc_sx said:
Just do a google search instead lads and use 'pistonheads' in the search term. "Pistonheads flatshifter radical" gave it as the first hit:-
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=1&a...
Page 2 for some good old fashioned fact from LCM.
Dunc
Well done Duncan, thanks!http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=1&a...
Page 2 for some good old fashioned fact from LCM.
Dunc
Edited by dunc_sx on Friday 19th October 14:01
There was another discussion as well around that time that had more data on time savings if you want to have a search for that one as well
Now having run the Mk5 Flatshifter for 2 years and compared data with the Mk1 Trickshifter the one thing that is clear is that both are quicker than a manual shift but the "hard cut/restore" on the early model was slightly quicker than the soft restore of the latest model! Faster and rough or slightly less fast and smooth?
The system failed in the middle of an event a couple of weeks ago and the data was compelling. Both Al and I were 1 sec slower in 30 secs doing manual changes than we were when the shifter was working. The good news was that John at Flatshifter confirmed our diagnosis of the problem over the phone and repaired the errant load sensor FOC by return. Once again terrific service from Flatshifter.
And, before someone asks, how does Flatshifter compare to the paddle system on my SR8?
Well, I am a big fan of the BIG R pneumatic system. It's incredibly fast and smooth; a complete joy to use and beyond comparison with the Flatty. But it costs thousands to buy and install compared with hundreds for the Flatshifter and adds weight and complexity that I don't need in a 350kg hillclimb car.
To misquote Rene Descartes, la viande d'un seule homme est le poisson de l'autre.............................
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