Clubsport ZZR1100 gasket

[seekdestroy]

Hey, just put engine back together and in the radical, and got it running again, but to find the oil turned milky colour. So I guess the gasket is gone. It needs to be ready for the end of the month, so I basically wanted to know if any1 has done this before, how long it takes, how much it costs and whether the engine needs taking out of the car?


Thanks!

[splitpin]

Classic sign of a duff head gasket, if so No, should be able to do it in situ, cost of the gasket and obviously new oil, filter, flush etc if you DIY it ........... if you've got to the end of the month, (as you always should), take your time, there's plenty.

Check out whether you need any special tools, lubes, thread lock sealant etc and what torque values apply where, tightening sequence etc. And take your time to 'keep order'; lots of photos and scribblings of what goes where, so you don't finish up with bits left over; whatever they are, they'll likely be important. They say 'measure twice and cut once'; your golden rule should be to study twice before you make one move with a spanner/socket.

[Martin B]

Problem is why has the head gasket gone?

I have found genuine Kawasaki head gaskets very strong, even when my engine has had chronic detonation, the gasket hasn't gone, the pistons were decidedly second hand with holes etc, but the gasket showed no signs of leak or blowout.

[dunc_sx]

Always check for flatness on the head and block before fitting a new head gasket in my experience.

Cheers,

Dunc.

[BertBert]

When you say "put the engine back together", what have you done to it and could it explain the symptoms you are seeing now?
Bert

[seekdestroy]

Thanks for all your help guys.

Basically it was bought a couple of years ago, when it was bought it had the 2nd gear problem with it. Got that fixed a few months ago.

I must admit, thinking back there were signs something was wrong, the water pump had gone (got new 1 in now) and the water was all rusty and some of the piping had rusted. And the oil was brown when we emptied it. I suppose at this point we should have checked it all out.

So we have been putting the engine back in for a few weeks now and finally got it all running yesturday, and we noticed the oil had gone white in the oil level gauge.

Will I really need a new oil filter? it had a brand new 1 in it....

[seekdestroy]

Just to update a bit. And add some things I missed:

We have just checked the coolant radiator to see if bubbles appear when on, apparently this is a sign of a blown head gasket, although my dad wasn't convinced.

Also, we haven't got the oil that hot, we read that once the water hits 80C we should turn the engine off, oil pressure seems fine and the compressions sound fine too, the engine sounds perfect, just the carbs need balancing.

The highest the oil temperature has got to is 47C ish. When the oil cools, it looses it's milky colour, is this normal?

We put anti freeze and water into the coolant, not sure if this matters or helps diagnose the problem. Also, when we checked for bubbles, the water is seriously brown and full of rust again, so we are going to flush that again.

I read that condensation can form due to the engine standing for a long time, could this be a cause too? The oil hasn't really got that hot for it to burn off.

Sorry, about all this info, but we just want to make sure it is definitely the head gasket, before we go ahead and take it apart. If anyone else has anything else we should check to try and confirm the fault, that would be great.

Thanks for you input and help already guys.

[Martin B]

Is yours a wet or dry sump engine?

Where are you seeing the 'milky' oil?

[splitpin]

seekdestroy said:

Just to update a bit. And add some things I missed:

We have just checked the coolant radiator to see if bubbles appear when on, apparently this is a sign of a blown head gasket, although my dad wasn't convinced.

Also, we haven't got the oil that hot, we read that once the water hits 80C we should turn the engine off, oil pressure seems fine and the compressions sound fine too, the engine sounds perfect, just the carbs need balancing.

The highest the oil temperature has got to is 47C ish. When the oil cools, it looses it's milky colour, is this normal?

We put anti freeze and water into the coolant, not sure if this matters or helps diagnose the problem. Also, when we checked for bubbles, the water is seriously brown and full of rust again, so we are going to flush that again.

I read that condensation can form due to the engine standing for a long time, could this be a cause too? The oil hasn't really got that hot for it to burn off.

Sorry, about all this info, but we just want to make sure it is definitely the head gasket, before we go ahead and take it apart. If anyone else has anything else we should check to try and confirm the fault, that would be great.

Thanks for you input and help already guys.

No, oil that goes milky looking (whether or not it stays that way) certainly isn't normal; I interpret that as there's stuff in it that shouldn't be and it's presumably settling out when as the oil cools - as it doesn't mix with oil, likely water with anti-freeze in it, which after being boiled up in oil can look a bit like the top off a pint of full fat Jersey Milk.

Maybe you didn't mean "the compressions sound fine"?; you can't hear compressions - if it's firing on 4, that doesn't tell you/confirm that the compressions are OK; before you go pulling anything apart, (as well as properly flushing out the cooling system) if you've not already done so, you need to do a proper compression test with/promptly after the engine having reached normal operating temperature or rather as close as you can get a bike engine to running it static; say water about 85-90degC, say oil about 55-60degC. If a reading on two adjacent cylinders is say 20psi lower than the other two cylinders, given the existing evidence, that would be enough for me to say "Yep, reckon that's the head gasket gone (and mutter crikey, I hope it's that and not a cracked cylinder head)", especially if (as you might) I could see evidence of coolant in both those cylinders.

Edited by splitpin on Saturday 3rd September 22:48

[Martin B]

Without seeing the state of the oil it is difficult to say, I was starting to wonder whether aeration of the oil was being mistaken for 'milkyness'?

[splitpin]

Although a very extreme example, I'm thinking/interpreting something like this (ZX6) hot? >



It then goes clear as it cools; in the event of water entering oil usually because of a HG failure, if you drop the sump in such a scenario you'll usually find a creamy texture and coloured sludge sticking to the bottom. Hence this dipstick effect, depending on the length of the dipstick/depth of sludge >

[Martin B]

OK, if it like that, then yes more than likely HG failure

[seekdestroy]

It's a wet sump, its milky like that picture in the oil level too. We also have a slight leak where it comes out from a bolt on the bottom of one of the hoses to the oil cooler(we think the washer needs replacing).

Ok, yeah it's firing on all 4, we will have to check the compression, so your saying the oil temperature should be up to 100C when checking the compression? Because the most we got it was 47C, because the water temp was getting to 80C and in the radical manual it suggests not letting it go above that when stationary.

We haven't flushed out the water system properly since we emptied it, I did clean the catch tank as it was full of dust of rust :P
The water was thinking with brown rust when we checked it.

So is it 100% the HG or could it be the seal around the water pump(I read online it could be this aswell)?

[splitpin]

seekdestroy said:

It's a wet sump, its milky like that picture in the oil level too. We also have a slight leak where it comes out from a bolt on the bottom of one of the hoses to the oil cooler(we think the washer needs replacing).

Ok, yeah it's firing on all 4, we will have to check the compression, so your saying the oil temperature should be up to 100C when checking the compression? Because the most we got it was 47C, because the water temp was getting to 80C and in the radical manual it suggests not letting it go above that when stationary.

We haven't flushed out the water system properly since we emptied it, I did clean the catch tank as it was full of dust of rust :P
The water was thinking with brown rust when we checked it.

So is it 100% the HG or could it be the seal around the water pump(I read online it could be this aswell)?

BTW, given the basic symptoms, I think it's irrelevant whether it's dry or wet sump.

Check those compressions and it's important to see whether two adjacent cylinders are reading low compared to the other two - if they are, that's the strongest pointer you'll get that the problem is a blown head gasket (or a cracked cylinder head).

No. Sorry for not making myself clear - I have now EFA'd - 100degC is pretty well an ideal 'on track' oil temp and you'll never achieve that warming it up statically - I meant take the water temperature (on second cycle) upto a maximum of say 100 degC, principally to get the oil temp up as high as possible, at least 50degC, ideally 60degC; use the two stage warm-up cycle as I posted under the SR3 oil change thread.

The oil's not going milky because of a teensy leak on an oil cooler connection. Anywhere water can contaminate oil is a possibility (such as a water pump), but prime suspect/clear favourite/starting point for me would be HG or (hopefully not) cracked CH.

Bit worried about that water rust, but that's probably down to the engine/car not being used for ages? Let's hope nothing amiss there, but if there is, that'll likely be the water rad that's suffered; anyway, milky oil is first thing to get sorted. Post up the compression readings you get.

Edited by splitpin on Saturday 3rd September 22:56

[seekdestroy]

Ok thanks, I'll try the heat cycle you suggested. The water was rusty due to the steel impeller in the water pump, so that had to be replaced, but the rust was everywhere, all in the catch tank and the water pipes coming from the engine and water pump were rusty. I guess we will have to flush the coolant a lot to get it clean again.

[seekdestroy]

hey guys, just wanted to just double check how long you reckon it will take to check/replace the head gasket, we are debating whether to di it ourselves or just send the engine off to get rebuilt.

Also, could it be a cracked liner, or the seal around the oil pump?

Thanks guys, going to decide whether to DIY it 2moro and either take the top off or start taking the engine out to get some1 else to do it.

[Martin B]

Not sure why it would be an oil pump seal, it is no where near any of the coolant water passages, or do you mean the water pump seal leaking into the crank cases?

I don't want to offend but I get the impression you ought to get someone to do it for you.

[splitpin]

Start with that compression check ........... if it proves to be the head gasket, even if you decide not to DIY it, either the mechanic can come to you or you take the whole car with engine in-situ to the mechanic?: I can't imagine a mechanic giving himself the balls-ache of taking the engine out just to take off the head, so why impose the pain on yourselves just to make it a bit easier for him?

[seekdestroy]

Yeah sorry I meant water pump. I'm not really the technical 1, my dad is the experienced 1. Ok we will do a compression test tonight and see the results.

[seekdestroy]

Ok, we don't have a compression tester, so we are taking the top off in order to check the head gasket.

We are trying to align the cam shaft sprockets in the TDC cylinder #1 position, but we are unsure if we are doing it correctly. We have check the manual, and it says the EX marker on the exhaust sprocket and the IN Marker on the inlet sprocket need to be aligned horizontally. However, in this position the cam lobes aren't facing outward as they should do. Is this normal in a motherbike/Kawasaki engine?

I've trying searching online for help, but every1 seems to say it was easy and they just lined up the markers. But we just want to make sure it is in the correct position b4 we remove it.

Thanks guys