B GT Handling problems. Also hard to steer right!
Discussion
Hi All,
My daily driver B GT has made it through winter and due to loosing my job i now have enough time to fix some of the problems its use has caused!
The main issue i have is that it seems harder to turn the wheel right than left. Does anyone know why this might be?
Also, the handling is a little interesting at times. Maybe all B's are like this, but sometimes during a corner it seems to tighten up (without extra turns of the steering wheel) and really 'dig in' to the corner. I'm sorry i cant describe it better but im thinking this is maybe just how a B drives?
The car is okay in a straight line, but when you really put your foot down (about 60!) it seems to drift around the road a little bit (like driving on a windy day!).
Anyway, i've got one idea about the cause, but thought i best throw it out there before i start taking everything apart!
Thanks in advance
Phil
My daily driver B GT has made it through winter and due to loosing my job i now have enough time to fix some of the problems its use has caused!
The main issue i have is that it seems harder to turn the wheel right than left. Does anyone know why this might be?
Also, the handling is a little interesting at times. Maybe all B's are like this, but sometimes during a corner it seems to tighten up (without extra turns of the steering wheel) and really 'dig in' to the corner. I'm sorry i cant describe it better but im thinking this is maybe just how a B drives?
The car is okay in a straight line, but when you really put your foot down (about 60!) it seems to drift around the road a little bit (like driving on a windy day!).
Anyway, i've got one idea about the cause, but thought i best throw it out there before i start taking everything apart!
Thanks in advance
Phil
hi.phil,i drive a 73 bgt if you hurry it along around a left hand bend i have noticed that the steering seems to stiffen up quite noticeably .in all other conditions it seems fine.
so as i do not know what causes this,my answer to it is - not to push it too hard through left hand bends and then all is well.
i have fitted new suspension to front and back and new roll bar bushes at the front.
what i haven't done is to replace the original steering rack,or the wishbone bushes.
no play in wheel bearings or kingpin swivel.
if someone out there knows the answer to the problem,it would be very interesting.
as you know,there is only so many parts you can fit before you blow your budget,so a cheap fix would be good news.
phil
so as i do not know what causes this,my answer to it is - not to push it too hard through left hand bends and then all is well.
i have fitted new suspension to front and back and new roll bar bushes at the front.
what i haven't done is to replace the original steering rack,or the wishbone bushes.
no play in wheel bearings or kingpin swivel.
if someone out there knows the answer to the problem,it would be very interesting.
as you know,there is only so many parts you can fit before you blow your budget,so a cheap fix would be good news.
phil
Thats just how mine is. Who would have thought it, two B BT driving Phils who are skint!
I've replaced the wishbone bushes and anti roll bar bushes. I even went to town and fitted the poly bush ones, so its not them. I may have a very small amount of bearing play but not enough to do this. I do run old skool steel wheels and skinny tyres though (165/70/14) which could be it??
I've replaced the wishbone bushes and anti roll bar bushes. I even went to town and fitted the poly bush ones, so its not them. I may have a very small amount of bearing play but not enough to do this. I do run old skool steel wheels and skinny tyres though (165/70/14) which could be it??
Firstly your wandering under acceleration will be loose axle U bolts, normally more of a problem on recently refurbed suspension where the bolts have stretched and the pads relaxed after a few thousand miles.
Skinny tyres aren't a problem on a B, nor are steel standard wheels, indeed far more handling problems are brought about by aftermarket alloys with the wrong offsets and wide tyres that give too much grip. I suspect a good grease of your front suspension would be a good place to start, with the car jacked up just try rocking the front wheels side to side and top to bottom, any suspension problems will usually show there, but I think you may just have dry kingpins.
Skinny tyres aren't a problem on a B, nor are steel standard wheels, indeed far more handling problems are brought about by aftermarket alloys with the wrong offsets and wide tyres that give too much grip. I suspect a good grease of your front suspension would be a good place to start, with the car jacked up just try rocking the front wheels side to side and top to bottom, any suspension problems will usually show there, but I think you may just have dry kingpins.
Sorry I don't know what the problem is but I think that you both (may) probably have something wrong with your cars as Bs should be easy and fun on bends (I owned two in the early to mid 90s)
Hopefully someone like Wildoliver will be along with suggestions
I assume you both follow the owners Handbook for full and proper servicing and maintaince of your cars so it wont be something simple like worn, old (more than 5 years) or wrongly inflated tyres, lack of front suspension greasing, leaks to steering or suspension
Worth every penny - http://www.mgocshop.co.uk/catalog/Online_Catalogue...
ETA: too slow with my typing as normal but I'll leave my post to stand for the owners Handbook link - every owner or potential owner should have a copy
and old, hard tyres, even with loads of tread
Hopefully someone like Wildoliver will be along with suggestions
I assume you both follow the owners Handbook for full and proper servicing and maintaince of your cars so it wont be something simple like worn, old (more than 5 years) or wrongly inflated tyres, lack of front suspension greasing, leaks to steering or suspension
Worth every penny - http://www.mgocshop.co.uk/catalog/Online_Catalogue...
ETA: too slow with my typing as normal but I'll leave my post to stand for the owners Handbook link - every owner or potential owner should have a copy
and old, hard tyres, even with loads of tread
Edited by na on Thursday 3rd March 20:35
hi.guys,my kingpins are regularly greased,when car is moving slowly it is fairly easy to manuoever around.i had car jacked up recently to replace flexible brake hoses,so i tried to see if any play anywhere with the front wheels,i could find none.always passes mot test no problem.
new lever arm shocks did make a big difference to the general car ride.car has rostyle wheels and 165 x 14 tyres which seem fine to me.
i think that if old tyres would be the problem,how come it feels great around right hand bends.
what i start to think is that when your car gets to approaching 40 years old maybe there are so many parts that may have a bit of wear in them,that you can never get it quite 100 % right.
same thing with a slow hesitation /stutter / cutting out the car has now slowly developed ( worse when engine cold ), when pulling away from a standstill.have tried everything i can think of and have read about,to try and fix it,except have not tried sucking on the vacuum advance pipe yet to see if it is still working - but have found no cure yet.
will keep working away at it.
phil
new lever arm shocks did make a big difference to the general car ride.car has rostyle wheels and 165 x 14 tyres which seem fine to me.
i think that if old tyres would be the problem,how come it feels great around right hand bends.
what i start to think is that when your car gets to approaching 40 years old maybe there are so many parts that may have a bit of wear in them,that you can never get it quite 100 % right.
same thing with a slow hesitation /stutter / cutting out the car has now slowly developed ( worse when engine cold ), when pulling away from a standstill.have tried everything i can think of and have read about,to try and fix it,except have not tried sucking on the vacuum advance pipe yet to see if it is still working - but have found no cure yet.
will keep working away at it.
phil
Phil the cars were never 100% when new so sure after 40 years they might not be better - but some are!
The secret is regular use, full and proper servicing and maintenance, not putting up with worn or faulty parts and components
You covered replacing parts but do you also cover full and proper servicing and maintenance and regular use – you might do already
I doubt it is tyre trouble but if you've still got old tyres on and they've never be moved round the car they can contribute and compound the effects
tyres themselves do not wear evenly swapping them round can sometimes make a difference or show faults to other components or the tyre
bit of info here - http://www.carbibles.com/tyre_bible.html
like I say I doubt it’s the tyres but trying to show the need to always cover the basics on servicing and maintenance
And for your other problem bits that just need replacing less regularly like dissy cap, rotor arm, HT leads, (fan belts) ect.
I expect whilst I’ve been typing this wildoliver has replied again
The secret is regular use, full and proper servicing and maintenance, not putting up with worn or faulty parts and components
You covered replacing parts but do you also cover full and proper servicing and maintenance and regular use – you might do already
I doubt it is tyre trouble but if you've still got old tyres on and they've never be moved round the car they can contribute and compound the effects
tyres themselves do not wear evenly swapping them round can sometimes make a difference or show faults to other components or the tyre
bit of info here - http://www.carbibles.com/tyre_bible.html
like I say I doubt it’s the tyres but trying to show the need to always cover the basics on servicing and maintenance
And for your other problem bits that just need replacing less regularly like dissy cap, rotor arm, HT leads, (fan belts) ect.
I expect whilst I’ve been typing this wildoliver has replied again
Phil I'm assuming your engine has been set up correctly (tappets/plugs, then points, then timing then carb balance then mixture)? If not then you may well discover it will sort your problem, it smacks of a set of slightly dirty points combined with less than optimal timing and carbs slightly out of balance. Wrong needles can also show themselves up at idle when cold too. When warm the engine is a lot more tolerant of problems.
Ok.guys,a few confessions to make.
I don,t know how old the tyres are,they could be 20 or so years old.plenty of tread and inflated correctly.
How old I here you gasp! Yes there on my list to do.
Car is taken out every weekend for a run,and I start it up in the garage midweek as well.
I confess to not knowing how to set timing,even though I,ve read a lot about it.
I think it is ok.though,as it runs very well when on the move.
I set the mixture with colourtune recently,so I think this is ok.needles in carbs look ok.to the eye.
One of those dumb questions-is it possible to put new points in without having to have the ignition timing set.
Points look ok.not pitted,but have a dull matt surface to them.
Phil
I don,t know how old the tyres are,they could be 20 or so years old.plenty of tread and inflated correctly.
How old I here you gasp! Yes there on my list to do.
Car is taken out every weekend for a run,and I start it up in the garage midweek as well.
I confess to not knowing how to set timing,even though I,ve read a lot about it.
I think it is ok.though,as it runs very well when on the move.
I set the mixture with colourtune recently,so I think this is ok.needles in carbs look ok.to the eye.
One of those dumb questions-is it possible to put new points in without having to have the ignition timing set.
Points look ok.not pitted,but have a dull matt surface to them.
Phil
Provided you gap the points correctly you will not affect timing at all.
There is a good chance your timing is way out going from your post, but for the time being get everything else sorted first.
Clean and gap points. Likewise plugs (I favour Champion N9YCC), check your leads it's amazing how many cars are running round with knackered silicone leads, I don't particularly like silicone leads but they are fine when new, when 10 years old, hard and broken up inside they are useless, you don't need anything special a set of £15 leads will be better than knackered old leads. Likewise check your dizzy cap, if it's furry as hell inside it's going to be making life harder than it needs to be.
Take your dashpots off, remove the needles, there will be a small engraving at the top of the needle shoulder that tells you what the needles are, hopefully they match, google the code to find out the spec, there are dozens of needles fitted to Bs depending on year and market, including weak and rich needles either side, plus if the engine has ever had work done it may have had different needles fitted, but it's worth knowing what is in there. Next get a totally flat surface and gently roll them on it (mirror is good) to see if they are straight. That's about all you can check by the eye.
Once you've got to the point of the engine being mechanically set up you need to balance the airflow, haynes should tell you how to do this but put simply undo the throttle linkage screws (so throttle linkage doesn't move carb butterflies. Whack a carb balancer on each carb and use the throttle screws to balance both carbs to the same reading with a sensible tickover (my engines tend to tick over happily at around 800rpm.) Then tighten up the screws. Now when you use the throttle it will open both carbs at the same time and rate. At this stage I make sure there is no slack in the throttle cable too, but don't put any load on it or you will screw your idle as it contracts and expands in use.
At that point your pretty much at the stage of setting your timing properly which basically means advancing your dizzy till you start to get pinking under load then backing it off slightly till it stops. This will give max power without danger. Irrespective of the marks on the engine or official figures which don't really apply with wear and modern fuels. But there is no point doing this without mechanically setting the engine up first.
There is a good chance your timing is way out going from your post, but for the time being get everything else sorted first.
Clean and gap points. Likewise plugs (I favour Champion N9YCC), check your leads it's amazing how many cars are running round with knackered silicone leads, I don't particularly like silicone leads but they are fine when new, when 10 years old, hard and broken up inside they are useless, you don't need anything special a set of £15 leads will be better than knackered old leads. Likewise check your dizzy cap, if it's furry as hell inside it's going to be making life harder than it needs to be.
Take your dashpots off, remove the needles, there will be a small engraving at the top of the needle shoulder that tells you what the needles are, hopefully they match, google the code to find out the spec, there are dozens of needles fitted to Bs depending on year and market, including weak and rich needles either side, plus if the engine has ever had work done it may have had different needles fitted, but it's worth knowing what is in there. Next get a totally flat surface and gently roll them on it (mirror is good) to see if they are straight. That's about all you can check by the eye.
Once you've got to the point of the engine being mechanically set up you need to balance the airflow, haynes should tell you how to do this but put simply undo the throttle linkage screws (so throttle linkage doesn't move carb butterflies. Whack a carb balancer on each carb and use the throttle screws to balance both carbs to the same reading with a sensible tickover (my engines tend to tick over happily at around 800rpm.) Then tighten up the screws. Now when you use the throttle it will open both carbs at the same time and rate. At this stage I make sure there is no slack in the throttle cable too, but don't put any load on it or you will screw your idle as it contracts and expands in use.
At that point your pretty much at the stage of setting your timing properly which basically means advancing your dizzy till you start to get pinking under load then backing it off slightly till it stops. This will give max power without danger. Irrespective of the marks on the engine or official figures which don't really apply with wear and modern fuels. But there is no point doing this without mechanically setting the engine up first.
Phil change those tyres you will be amazed at the difference and for the sake of safety, yours and other roads users
You've fell into the the fashion of dealing with the sexy bits, suspension and the like (good that you done the bushes to tho') and forgetten basics
tyres are part of your steering, braking, suspension, ride and handling
you also don't need to sex the tyres up by going to very wide or low see link
timing is at the end of the other regular servicing items, if required
get the Handbook do the full and proper 36*,000 mile service and then see if you need to do any more
you going about this classic car use half-cocked, I'm sure you don't want that really
ETA: he posted again whilst I was still typing
You've fell into the the fashion of dealing with the sexy bits, suspension and the like (good that you done the bushes to tho') and forgetten basics
tyres are part of your steering, braking, suspension, ride and handling
you also don't need to sex the tyres up by going to very wide or low see link
timing is at the end of the other regular servicing items, if required
get the Handbook do the full and proper 36*,000 mile service and then see if you need to do any more
you going about this classic car use half-cocked, I'm sure you don't want that really
ETA: he posted again whilst I was still typing
Edited by na on Thursday 3rd March 23:59
One last thought from me
Unless you’re letting it run for something like half an hour or so, going off choke and then on to fast idle with the odd blip of mild acceleration you’ll be possibly choking the car up, taking power out of the batteries by starting it up that you're not putting back in, engine wear from start and cold
You’re also not testing or putting into motion your brakes, suspension, tyres, gears, axles, wheels, coolant system, instruments, ect.
And if you’re going to run the car for around half an hour you might as well drive it
Unless you have something like an immobiliser fitted or your batteries and battery connections and leads are poor or have a faulty alternator you should be able to leave the car many weeks and be able to got back to it and expect it to start first time
Not that I recommend leaving the car undriven for many weeks of course
Oh, and did you read the bit towards the bottom of that tyre link page - B tyres are inexpensive - if you can afford to run a car you can afford four new tyres - you know it makes sense
phil wilkins said:
… and I start it up in the garage midweek as well.
I would recommend not doing this as it’s not necessary if your actually driving the car at the weekendsUnless you’re letting it run for something like half an hour or so, going off choke and then on to fast idle with the odd blip of mild acceleration you’ll be possibly choking the car up, taking power out of the batteries by starting it up that you're not putting back in, engine wear from start and cold
You’re also not testing or putting into motion your brakes, suspension, tyres, gears, axles, wheels, coolant system, instruments, ect.
And if you’re going to run the car for around half an hour you might as well drive it
Unless you have something like an immobiliser fitted or your batteries and battery connections and leads are poor or have a faulty alternator you should be able to leave the car many weeks and be able to got back to it and expect it to start first time
Not that I recommend leaving the car undriven for many weeks of course
Oh, and did you read the bit towards the bottom of that tyre link page - B tyres are inexpensive - if you can afford to run a car you can afford four new tyres - you know it makes sense
I'd agree with many comments - with the tyres, take a look at the sidewalls and see if there's any cracking or crazing there, if the tyres are old and have seen too much sunlight you may be shocked.
I'd stick with standard sizes though, i think B's are so much nicer if they're not over-tyred. I wouldn't worry about lever-arm dampers either, they're fine so long as they're in good nick.
Regarding the stiff steering, if the kingpins are greased them it may be a trackrod end ball joint seizing up. An easy way to check is with the front of the car supported on axle stands, undo one of the ball joints from the steering arm, then compare how easy the one road wheel is to turn compared to the other, bearing in mind that one wheel will be operating the steering rack as well.
I once had a partially seized ball joint and this was how i found which one had seized, and it does make quite a difference when replaced.
I'd stick with standard sizes though, i think B's are so much nicer if they're not over-tyred. I wouldn't worry about lever-arm dampers either, they're fine so long as they're in good nick.
Regarding the stiff steering, if the kingpins are greased them it may be a trackrod end ball joint seizing up. An easy way to check is with the front of the car supported on axle stands, undo one of the ball joints from the steering arm, then compare how easy the one road wheel is to turn compared to the other, bearing in mind that one wheel will be operating the steering rack as well.
I once had a partially seized ball joint and this was how i found which one had seized, and it does make quite a difference when replaced.
hi.guys.thanks for all the info.
apologies to phil the original poster for somewhat jumping in on this posting.
will replace tyres as soon as funds allow,i think your right it will make big difference.
will keep slowly working away at slow speed hesitation problems and let you know when i find a cure.
at the back of my mind i think it might be the vacuum advance unit not working properly or at all.
most of these parts are original,and never been replaced.
what you can see from all your comments is the fact that sometimes there are more questions than answers.ie.if you put new needles in the carbs,how do you know that the jet they fit into are not worn out as well . etc.etc.
anyway,have a great weekend,lets hope the sun shines a bit.
phil
apologies to phil the original poster for somewhat jumping in on this posting.
will replace tyres as soon as funds allow,i think your right it will make big difference.
will keep slowly working away at slow speed hesitation problems and let you know when i find a cure.
at the back of my mind i think it might be the vacuum advance unit not working properly or at all.
most of these parts are original,and never been replaced.
what you can see from all your comments is the fact that sometimes there are more questions than answers.ie.if you put new needles in the carbs,how do you know that the jet they fit into are not worn out as well . etc.etc.
anyway,have a great weekend,lets hope the sun shines a bit.
phil
For both Phils –
I’ll leave by saying there’s no point looking beyond the full basic servicing to resolve the problems until you’ve done the full basic servicing work and doing this may solve the problems anyway
I’ll leave by saying there’s no point looking beyond the full basic servicing to resolve the problems until you’ve done the full basic servicing work and doing this may solve the problems anyway
na said:
Worth every penny - http://www.mgocshop.co.uk/catalog/Online_Catalogue...
na said:
get the Handbook do the full and proper 36*,000 mile service and then see if you need to do any more
na said:
The secret is regular use, full and proper servicing and maintenance, not putting up with worn or faulty parts and components
… bits that just need replacing less regularly like dissy cap, rotor arm, HT leads, (fan belts) ect.
Good luck … bits that just need replacing less regularly like dissy cap, rotor arm, HT leads, (fan belts) ect.
heebeegeetee said:
Regarding the stiff steering, if the kingpins are greased them it may be a trackrod end ball joint seizing up. An easy way to check is with the front of the car supported on axle stands, undo one of the ball joints from the steering arm, then compare how easy the one road wheel is to turn compared to the other, bearing in mind that one wheel will be operating the steering rack as well.
I once had a partially seized ball joint and this was how i found which one had seized, and it does make quite a difference when replaced.
This is good advice. There are other things to check when the car is up on axle stands. Make sure that you can't feel any play, or wobble, in the front wheels. Also give the wheels a spin to make sure one of them doesn't have a sticking caliper. I once had a partially seized ball joint and this was how i found which one had seized, and it does make quite a difference when replaced.
An MGB should be really quite nice to drive, and certainly the steering shouldn't feel "bad" in any way.
Hi guys,
Thanks for the info. I though it might be kingpin based. I was planning to have a look today but got sidetracked with the other vw project so might get it over the pit next weekend.
The tyres are pretty new, but of poor quality so it could always be that.
Wildoilver - you are always a source of good info on this car and usually right!
Thanks for all the help
Phil
Thanks for the info. I though it might be kingpin based. I was planning to have a look today but got sidetracked with the other vw project so might get it over the pit next weekend.
The tyres are pretty new, but of poor quality so it could always be that.
Wildoilver - you are always a source of good info on this car and usually right!
Thanks for all the help
Phil
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