Bloody Garage and MGTF HGF!!!!

[benjaminsmam]

Can anyone suggest or help me diagnose what my problem is now! MGTF has been in the garage for 3 weeks now for a HGF they have now done the work on this and fitted a new K&N Induction kit also, on being told the car would be in atleast 12 days I have been to retrieve it and pay my extensive bill!! They told me they were trying to flush the oil out of the water but now it is overheating and boiling over? They said they have changed the thermostat but that it is a buggar to work on, they said they would take the radiator off tomorrow to see if it is gunked up with oil, does this sound normal and can anyone suggest a fix?!!!

[hearselover]

benjaminsmam said:

Can anyone suggest or help me diagnose what my problem is now! MGTF has been in the garage for 3 weeks now for a HGF they have now done the work on this and fitted a new K&N Induction kit also, on being told the car would be in atleast 12 days I have been to retrieve it and pay my extensive bill!! They told me they were trying to flush the oil out of the water but now it is overheating and boiling over? They said they have changed the thermostat but that it is a buggar to work on, they said they would take the radiator off tomorrow to see if it is gunked up with oil, does this sound normal and can anyone suggest a fix?!!!

I would say they have either not followed the correct bleed procedure when they re filled the coolant and in some cases ive heard of this being as simple as the expansion tank cap needing replacing. Im sure others will suggest other possibilities.

Edited by hearselover on Thursday 21st January 21:47

[MG Mark]

It doesn't sound normal at all - it sounds like they have not fixed the problem that it was given to them to rectify. I know that individual cases vary, but it really sounds like they took on a job that they did not know how to do properly, don't know how to put right, and still want to charge the full whack for it. The system can be a sod to clear out properly if the oil and water have mixed, but it is not rocket science - they just need to flush both out fully, that's all, and do the head gasket job properly.

MG Mark

[benjaminsmam]

Thanks for the advice guys, the garage didnt seem too impressed when I called them to explain this, dont suppose you know what my rights would be to claim the car back as it hasnt been resolved and not pay the extensive bill?

[Jezza30]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8253915.stm

Hope this may help. Half the problem with HGF is not the car itself but the dubious quality of the 'expert' doing the repair.
I had exactly the same with a TF. 2 head gaskets in 3 months. Stupidly i didn't kick off as much as i should have - i would battle this one out with the garage - it doesn't sound as though they really know what they are about which might also expalain their defensive nature when you question them about it.

[MG Mark]

What they SHOULD have done for a HGF would be to:

1)Unless completely obvious, test for HGF before stripping the head off.
2)Check to see if oil and water have mixed with each other, or just one into the other - if so, both systems will need flushing thoroughly, or one as required.
3)Assuming it is HGF, remove the head and ascertain where the HGF occurred.
4)Check the head for warping and skim if required and it it can be skimmed within limits, or a replacement head is needed. Check the water pump and blades as well.
5)Check and replace other components that make sense to do so as part of the job because you are in there anyway (i.e. new timing belt and tensioner because you have to remove it to get the head off, and the water pump), and are required as part of the job, namely not just the head gasket but the oil rail that the head bolts fasten into in the sump, and all the head bolts because they are one-use only stretch bolts. Should be be using the uprated gasket, head locating pegs and oil rail as a matter of course.
6)Once all refitted, and systems flushed, the cooling system either by vacuum filling (as originally) or manually filled and bled fully from all 3 coolant bleed points (shown on this site here, along with a whole load of information - http://www.mgf.ultimatemg.com/). The sysytem is prone to airlocks (which then cause overheating) if not filled properly
7) then started up, tested, and bob's your uncle.

If the above is not done, then a reapirr simply by replacing the gasket just won't work. Expect to pay, depending on whether the head needs skimming, anywhere around £600-900 including parts, VAT etc from someone who knows what they are doing. Oil doesn't block radiators...and they should have flushed it all properly anyway.

It sounds like they haven't done the above properly, and so haven't fixed the problem. You should not be paying for them to have not fixed it, and I would also be concerned that they don't know how to. go armed with the above and ask them what they have actually done in detail, what parts replaced etc. You need to get the car to someone who does know how to assess it and fix it. Suggest get advice from trading standards if the garage kick off about removing the car and not paying the bill?

MG Mark

[MGJohn]

Same old story ~ lost count of similar stories to this. A lady friend had her Rover cylinder head gasket replaced at some cost and within twenty miles afterwards, her cooling system in her K-Series was a horrible mess. In an extreme case such as this, the smaller core tubes in a radiator can become completely blocked with a strong coolant/oil emusification mix. The poor woman parked her car up for a month and I suggested I look at it and see what could be done at minimal cost with no guarantees ~ she is a long time friend after all ~ and this is what happened to her poor car following the incompetence :~

Top hose :~



Radiator was so blocked, even a garden hose at full pressure took many minutes to clear it and the rest of the system out ~ at first it could not shift any of it but, my persistence won through :~





Clearing all the muck out of the system and engine took about three times longer than preparing the engine and fitting a new MLS cylinder head gasket :~



The other "gasket" is in fact the head saver shim.



So, guess what was the real cause of the "repeat failure" ~ the all important locating dowel nearest the timing end of the engine was not fitted on the rebuild. Thus, as it plays a part in containing the oil supply to the overhead camshafts, oil at huge pressure was pumped directly into the coolant passageways. I have lost count of the times I've seen with my own eyes evidence like this ~ how can the average clueless car user cope with it ? They cannot ~ so hard to prove ~ and has no option but to take the advice of those professionals who surely must know what they are doing ... Yeah ... right.

That was two years ago and the car runs fine having been passed onto her daughter who now has strict instructions to check things on her car as all manufacturers advise. She will do that and it will save her a lot of grief not to mention money whatever car she gets in the future.

Would you like to hear about another nice woman who loved her 620ti even when spending close to £1000 trying to have her local garage rectify persistent overheating problems? I fixed it for less than a tenth of that plus a few leisurely hours work one weekend. Car runs sweet as when it first left the factory ~ a real pleasure to drive.

I learned a very long time ago at an early stage of my motoring that when entrusting the well being of your means of getting about to folks who should know better :~

BEWARE PROFESSIONALS..

Would like to hear about another nice Rover with severe overheating problems ~ be about £700 Sir to rectify that 'failed' gasket. bks ~ all it needed was a new water pump. I fixed that too.

Then there was ... Oh please yourselves ...but, I hope you get the picture by now ....
..

[MGJohn]

Impossible to say from here OP, but, lets hope they did do the job properly and they have simply not bled the cooling system correctly. The K-Series is a tricky cooling system to bleed and particularly on the MGF and MGTF with its mid-engine location. There is more than purely coincidental circumstantial evidence to show head gaskets "fail" soon after servicing the cars especially when the coolant is renewed necessitating bleeding the system of course or the system is disturbed to access other things. Get that bleeding wrong and guess what ...

Edit to add before and after pictures of her coolant Expansion bottle. Can you see the difference ... and tell whic is which ..





Of course you can. Few if any garages would give that much attention to detail ~ but, it is advisable. The owner can now see at a glance the level and condition of her car's coolant when doing those essential routine checks.
.

Edited by MGJohn on Saturday 23 January 02:56

[heebeegeetee]

I do know that if the car has been driven after the HG has failed, it can cause mayonaise to travel trhoughout the system and clog up not only the rad as John has said, but the heater matrix also. It can take some considerable flushing out. What gets me about these cases though, is what is all this talk of 12 days or 3 weeks? the garage should be working on your car until it is sorted, and it doesn't take 12 days to do an HGF.

-

What's the latest on this issue nowadays though? Who's doing the best all-inclusive kit of gasket, rail, dowels, bolts etc? And how does vacuum bleeding work?

[benjaminsmam]

Thanks so much for the advice, upon calling them last night, I explained we needed to know exactly what work had been carried out and what they would do to remedy this, he said he was ordering a new radiator!!! and this should be here on Tuesday then it should fix the problem and if im lucky he will try and get that included in or as close to the original quote he gave me for the works, is it still worth arming myself with all of your replies and telling him he clearly doesnt know what he is doing? I really appreciate all of the replies! oh and anyone want to buy an MGTF? put me off for life it has!

[MGJohn]

benjaminsmam said:

Thanks so much for the advice, upon calling them last night, I explained we needed to know exactly what work had been carried out and what they would do to remedy this, he said he was ordering a new radiator!!! and this should be here on Tuesday then it should fix the problem and if im lucky he will try and get that included in or as close to the original quote he gave me for the works, is it still worth arming myself with all of your replies and telling him he clearly doesnt know what he is doing? I really appreciate all of the replies! oh and anyone want to buy an MGTF? put me off for life it has!

You're welcome!

Do not blame the car! I know it is very fashionable to do so in the former green and pleasant, but, that way lay a Nation excelling at getting it wrong! There are billions of ways at getting things wrong ~ this is just one of them!

I could bore you all senseless with stories almost identical to yours ~ with illustrations.

Be persistent and when that car is finally sorted properly, enjoy it.
.

[MG Mark]

MGJohn said:

benjaminsmam said:

Thanks so much for the advice, upon calling them last night, I explained we needed to know exactly what work had been carried out and what they would do to remedy this, he said he was ordering a new radiator!!! and this should be here on Tuesday then it should fix the problem and if im lucky he will try and get that included in or as close to the original quote he gave me for the works, is it still worth arming myself with all of your replies and telling him he clearly doesnt know what he is doing? I really appreciate all of the replies! oh and anyone want to buy an MGTF? put me off for life it has!

You're welcome!

Do not blame the car! I know it is very fashionable to do so in the former green and pleasant, but, that way lay a Nation excelling at getting it wrong! There are billions of ways at getting things wrong ~ this is just one of them!

I could bore you all senseless with stories almost identical to yours ~ with illustrations.

Be persistent and when that car is finally sorted properly, enjoy it.
.

Use the knowledge gained form the replies to check what they have, or have not, done and discuss with them accordingly. A new radiator is fine, but have they cleared everything else out properly, including the oil passages in the block, and done all of the other things suggested above?

MG Mark

[benjaminsmam]

Tuesday has arrived.... The garage has added a new Radiator but have found that the car is still overheating, he has now disconnected the heater matrix and the car runs fine, he said the heater matrix is gunked up, when the heater matrix is on its overheating, he said to do this work it will be an extra £350.00! Please help Im losing Faith :-(

[hearselover]

I know this is of no help but I think your garage are taking the piss and your money. It sounds as if they are quoting to take the matrix out but in all but extreme cases this isnt necessary, have they tried back flushing the matrix at all.

[MGJohn]

hearselover said:

I know this is of no help but I think your garage are taking the piss and your money. It sounds as if they are quoting to take the matrix out but in all but extreme cases this isnt necessary, have they tried back flushing the matrix at all.

Yes, that can work .... or, even using a strong cooling system flush such as SpeedFlush. Thoroughly clearing the cooling system of all the muck takes longer than gasket renewal : This is speedflush and I've used it twice to assist the removal of any residual muck of the type seen in my pictures above :~



It is effective and used carefully will get most of the stuff out of the system. No guarantees it will cure this additional problem but worth a try. I said most because do not be surprised to see a few drops of mucky oil arrive in the coolant bottle ( ... ) sometime in the future as it's impossible to get it all cleared in one go....

Did the heater work well before the current problem?

[benjaminsmam]

hi and thank you for finding the time to reply . the heater did stop working on the way to work the water level was low so i topped it up the next day with coolent the heater still was not working this is when i seen that the oil was milky when i spoke to garage they said the heater was not working because of a air lock with the water level dropping when the head gasket went this was with out looking at the car . so if the heater had stopped working it would have only been at most 30 miles before i seen the oil was milky.

[MGJohn]

benjaminsmam said:

hi and thank you for finding the time to reply . the heater did stop working on the way to work the water level was low so i topped it up the next day with coolent the heater still was not working this is when i seen that the oil was milky when i spoke to garage they said the heater was not working because of a air lock with the water level dropping when the head gasket went this was with out looking at the car . so if the heater had stopped working it would have only been at most 30 miles before i seen the oil was milky.

Heater ~ no heat: That is to be expected in any car when it loses coolant. Those circumstances you described should not result in a completely blocked matrix. "Oil was milky" ... what was the coolant like then ~ did you look ~ was oil present in the coolant? Head gaskets can be damaged on ANY car once the coolant is lost for whatever reason. Oil can reach the cooling system and mix, coolant can reach the oil system and mix ~ or, BOTH can happen in a bad case.

Hard to be certain from here but, I suspect a bit of both from what you describe so far and at the very least, your car should have a decent cooling system flush ~ a system which includes the Heater Matrix ~ which after all, is simply another small radiator inside the car. AND, the sytem bled correctly again including the heater which should be 'on' when filling the coolant and bleeding.
.
EDIT to add @ 12:58

2nd thoughts:

said:

he has now disconnected the heater matrix and the car runs fine

I wonder with the heater isolated car will cover say 30-40 briskly driven miles and still be OK? That would be a decisive test to now satisfy me.
.

[benjaminsmam]

Hi MGJohn and everyone else, your advice has been invaluable but on visiting the garage today they have only bled the two bleeding points on the car and I believe there are 3. They have also not bled the heater matrix, would it now be worth investing in a Low Water Pressure Alarm and could you advise where to get one? He also has had to replace a water pipe with a small hole in which he thinks has been thme reason for losing the coolant thus resulting in the HGF.

[benjaminsmam]

Hearse lover you put this on a previous topic I started: Had mine done last year by a local (Chester Le Street) ex mg rover mech and didn't cost me anywhere near that I had the propper gaskets not eth MG crap fitted and 4Life advance coolant put in.

Anychance you can give me the number for that garage please? many thanks

[MG Mark]

benjaminsmam said:

Hi MGJohn and everyone else, your advice has been invaluable but on visiting the garage today they have only bled the two bleeding points on the car and I believe there are 3. They have also not bled the heater matrix, would it now be worth investing in a Low Water Pressure Alarm and could you advise where to get one? He also has had to replace a water pipe with a small hole in which he thinks has been thme reason for losing the coolant thus resulting in the HGF.

They need to bleed all 3 points, otherwise the problem could recur. I've just checked the link that I put above - which doesn't work as i intended - click on this link http://www.mgf.ultimatemg.com/ which should take you to the home page, then click on enter; then you'll see 4 drop down boxes around the MG badge - click on the top right of those 4 titled "Technical,DIY and common problems" for the drop down list there, then on the drop dwon titled "The Coolant System - & Mods";on the page that brings up then click on the drop down "Select coolant Option" and you will see an option titled "Avoid Air Locks - bleed your cooling system properly" - and that will tell you everything you need to know about the 3 bleed points.

A couple of other tips. Follow the instructions at the link fully. And when you are bleeding the system make sure (with a helper if needed) that as you bleed the coolant bottle does not get empty, otherwise you will just introduce more air to the system. Also, even when the fluid seems to be coming out continuously and the bleed nipples are tightened up, try the car on the drive and see if the coolant circulates and the level stays where it should; once warmed up, open the heater and make sure that works - it may not do, as there may still be air in the system - one time that I had to do it, it still took 4 goes to get all the air out, even though each time it had seemed to have been bled fully! It is notoriously variable, because when they were built, the factory procedure was to create a vacuum in the system, then allow the coolant to flow straight into everywhere, with no air anywhere - unless you can replicate that, it might take a bit of patience!

Low coolant alarm kit can be bought from Brown & Gammons.
All the best, hope its working out

MG Mark

Edited by MG Mark on Thursday 28th January 00:30

Edited by MG Mark on Thursday 28th January 00:30