MG B GT - Brake options.

[Kentish]

My brakes are rubbish!

They are non-servoed on my 1969 B and all brake bias is at the front and they lock up so easily and I end up skidding, they pull sideways a bit too - not a good combination.

I'm always nervous and covering the brake pedal and never drive on any roads without good visibility.

What upgrades would you recommend?

TIA

[Robert060379]

Kentish said:

My brakes are rubbish!

They are non-servoed on my 1969 B and all brake bias is at the front and they lock up so easily and I end up skidding, they pull sideways a bit too - not a good combination.

I'm always nervous and covering the brake pedal and never drive on any roads without good visibility.

What upgrades would you recommend?

TIA

Hi-Spec do a kit for the Nissan 200SX (S13) that can be adapted to fit the B and Rally Design do Wilwood calipers it's just a case of making a set of brackets and you're away. Rally Dsign also do a rather good pedal box (for the Mk2 Escort that can be adapted to fit) and remote servo kit or you can always borrow one and the inlet manifold from a rubber bumper model.

[SB - Nigel]

I think you know what I'm going to say . . .

the standard B brakes in good condition are fine

- upgrade - brake fluid after you've renewed all that is necessary and included in this tyres and suspension components

the servo makes no odds, you just don't push as hard, but you have more "feel" for how much to brake without the servo (you should brake as little as possible anyway)

you've not got a track car, you're not towing, so you don't need track style brakes

all my opinoin of course being used to driving classic cars (and modern)

[Kentish]

SB - Nigel said:

I think you know what I'm going to say . . .

the standard B brakes in good condition are fine

- upgrade - brake fluid after you've renewed all that is necessary and included in this tyres and suspension components

the servo makes no odds, you just don't push as hard, but you have more "feel" for how much to brake without the servo (you should brake as little as possible anyway)

you've not got a track car, you're not towing, so you don't need track style brakes

all my opinoin of course being used to driving classic cars (and modern)

I agree with you; the braking on the front is perhaps too good but they lack bite.
I'm considering some grooved discs and some better pads than standard.

On the rear, I'll definitely go for a new pair of cylinders, perhaps replacement drums and a new set of stainless braided hoses front & rear.

Is there a proven upgrade for the rear cylinders to give better braking at the rear?
Capri rear cylinders have been suggested but I wonder from which year those are?

[SB - Nigel]

Kentish said:

I agree with you; the braking on the front is perhaps too good but they lack bite.
I'm considering some grooved discs and some better pads than standard.

your front braking doesn't sound as if it's too good to me sounds more like it has fault/s (caliper/s faulty perhaps)
You don't need grooved discs or "better" pads (which may not be better for overall real world standard road use

Kentish said:

On the rear, I'll definitely go for a new pair of cylinders, perhaps replacement drums

if you do that don't forget to renew all other fittings and adjusters if required

Kentish said:

and a new set of stainless braided hoses front & rear.

and perhaps copper feed pipes

Kentish said:

Is there a proven upgrade for the rear cylinders to give better braking at the rear?
Capri rear cylinders have been suggested but I wonder from which year those are?

I saw this and it surprised me as a recent 1981 Capri owner, the front brakes on that I was told were the same as an early 60s Cortina and remember the Capri was 20 years newer and heavier and the rear brakes did not overwhelm the fron t brakes on that -

so I can't think it would be worth the effort stick to original B and they're probably easier and cheaper to buy

BTW the front brakes do most of the work

make sure your master (reservoir) cylinder is in good order, renew (and possibly upgrade) your brake fluid

once all your (standard) B components are in good order and working properly (be they brakes, carbs, engine ect.) they will seem upgraded or improved anyway, enough to make you feel further "upgrades" or "improvements" are not necessary

[Kentish]

SB - Nigel said:

Kentish said:

I agree with you; the braking on the front is perhaps too good but they lack bite.
I'm considering some grooved discs and some better pads than standard.

your front braking doesn't sound as if it's too good to me sounds more like it has fault/s (caliper/s faulty perhaps)
You don't need grooved discs or "better" pads (which may not be better for overall real world standard road use

Kentish said:

On the rear, I'll definitely go for a new pair of cylinders, perhaps replacement drums

if you do that don't forget to renew all other fittings and adjusters if required

Kentish said:

and a new set of stainless braided hoses front & rear.

and perhaps copper feed pipes

Kentish said:

Is there a proven upgrade for the rear cylinders to give better braking at the rear?
Capri rear cylinders have been suggested but I wonder from which year those are?

I saw this and it surprised me as a recent 1981 Capri owner, the front brakes on that I was told were the same as an early 60s Cortina and remember the Capri was 20 years newer and heavier and the rear brakes did not overwhelm the fron t brakes on that -

so I can't think it would be worth the effort stick to original B and they're probably easier and cheaper to buy

BTW the front brakes do most of the work

make sure your master (reservoir) cylinder is in good order, renew (and possibly upgrade) your brake fluid

once all your (standard) B components are in good order and working properly (be they brakes, carbs, engine ect.) they will seem upgraded or improved anyway, enough to make you feel further "upgrades" or "improvements" are not necessary

I'm inclined to agree with you on the aspect of getting everything as good as it can be but using the standard parts. Also, the price differential for upgraded brakes really isn't worth it (I've been looking today).

I'm going for new standard discs at £15 each, new EBC GS pads at £17, I think I'll check on the condition of the rear drums and probably skim the lip off and repaint them outside as they are £70 a pair and buy a new set of fittings and adjusters as they usully fall apart when removed, I already have the shoes and I'll buy a new pair of standard wheel cyclnders and a master cylinder is quite cheap too (about £35) and a complete set of copper brake lines is £49. I'll replace the fluid with DOT4 too.

That should see an improvement.

I think better tyres will help with the skidding issue as the newer tyre on the drivers side grips a lot better under braking but that can wait until I sort the hubs an wheels.

[SB - Nigel]

Kentish said:

I think better tyres will help with the skidding issue as the newer tyre on the drivers side grips a lot better under braking but that can wait until I sort the hubs an wheels.

Unless the hubs are really bad, in which case you wont be useing the car, or you're changing the wheels and hubs soon I'd strongly suggest changing your tyres

New tyres will improve not only your braking but also the roadholding, handling, suspension, ride quality and feel of your car

Tyres more than 3 or 4 years old, especialy if they've not been used a lot, tend to go hard (and even slight flat-spots if standing for long periods) and you lose all of the above, if the tyres were on the car when you got it unless there are reciepts you may not know their age

This year I swapped the "new" tyres that were fitted to my car at purchase for brand new tyres and again the improvement was worth every penny plus I could now have more driving fun when I want

Tyres for a B are not expensive you don't need (or want) low profile and you don't need bigger wheels as you're keeping the brakes standard

Remember those four small patches of rubber are your only contact with the road when driving and braking, their importance is very high

Also check for correct tyre pressures regularly

[V8_chitty]

For what it's worth I would advise Mintex 1144 over EBC GS. I fitted some prior to a trip round the Alps and whilst they are a little tough on the disks (much more abrasive and will wear disks quicker) there is a signficant improvement in stopping power - also they work brilliantly from cold if properly run in (read the instructions enclosed). I did also fit a servo which is personal preference. Going down a mountain with 48 hairpins soon gets tiring and you do 're-adjust' to the lighter feel. With the servo there is less of a re-adjustment from my everyday car.

I also would not bother much changing to 4-pots since with the right pads, steel braided hoses, decent (new) fluid the brakes are more than adequate (assuming any dodgy calipers etc are sorted)

[SB - Nigel]

Excellent point about running in brakes (and tyres) I wrote so much I forgot to put that

I can't comment on EBC GS (only heard of (colour)stuff) but I do remember my mate from Pagid (now out of business) loathing GreenStuff and recommending Mintex over them too

ETA: I agree a servo goes better with a V8 engine, I've had cars with and without and it does depend on the type of car and driver but if it's not fitted then sort the brakes out first and then fit a servo after if you feel you want to

Edited by SB - Nigel on Wednesday 15th July 13:23

[V8_chitty]

Agree with tyre pressures issue. Amazing what a few PSI does to grip. For the trip down to the Alps (mostly autoroutes) I pumped tyres up to around 30psi to save petrol. I had meant to drop them back down to around 24 for the twisty stuff but completely forgot (muppet!). During a wet town drive the traffic stopped suddenly I ended up in a very short but worrying 4-wheel slide! I then remembered tyre pressures. Dropping it down to 24 and re-testing completely solved the problem.

Partly this might be due to older tyres and very greasy/wet conditions but I was staggered by the affect of the pressures.

[SB - Nigel]

yeap correct tyres and pressures are most important

O/T I thought about changing my V8 B roadster into a NG TC but the NG guy on their stand just annoyed me about me having a Westie he lost a sale I bought a V8 Westie instead

[Kentish]

Thanks guys.

Yes, my tyres are probably over 10 years old.

I may do the hubs, wheels and tyres first. Not too sure yet.

I will forget the EBC pads and on your experience will go for the Mintex instead. Thanks!

[SB - Nigel]

Brakes are the priority for by the sound of your prevoius posts but those 10 year old tyres should go soon after

I'd buy 4 new tyres and perhaps keep that newish at the front as a spare if it's not 10 years old of course and in good condition with at least 3 mm tread depth

Tyres may not be in good condition even if they have 7 or 8 mm of tread depth

A spare tyre must be in good condition and have sufficient tread depth (3 mm for me) and not just stored for the sake of it, remember you may put that spare tyre on the car, in fact ideally you should rotate the five tyres round the car for even wear

[Kentish]

I'm not too sure what to do first to be honest.

I think it'll be brakes first using all standard parts except the upgraded pads and stainless hoses. At least I can use the car and not be a nervous wreck!

I can put up the the clonking from the hubs for a while

I'll probably ask MGB Hive, Moss, MG & Midget parts or MGOCS for a good deal when I come to replace the wheels etc. I'll be after a recon rear tube axle (£250), new hubs all round (£240) and a new set of wheels (£360) and tyres (£150).

£1000

But I can't really think of a cheaper way unless the bolt on hubs are a fraction of the cost of splined hubs?

I may also get a good deal on a wheel and tyre package instead of individually (as priced above).

[SB - Nigel]

I'm a bit confused with your costing unless I've misunderstood, you wont get new wire wheels for £90 each, MGOCS £244 chrome, each and I doubt the'd be as good as original wheels but I'd guess at £300 or more each to fully refurb your existing wheels but I could be wrong you'd have to check

personally with the wheels if you're thinking about the rear axle tube and hubs I'd change to disc hubs and put 14" Minilite copies on with perhaps 175/70 tyres, no wider

stuff for disc wheels is surely cheaper than wire

wire wheels require more maintainence (remember your push bike wheels) are harder to keep clean and are narrow in width (not always a bad thing)

If I remember right wire wheels need inner tubes??

Wheel & tyres package for 4, £461 MGOCA, for Clubsport Alloy Bolt-on wheels with Yokohama tyres

more expense - you'll need a set of 16 wheelnuts, get S/S at £31 (not chrome at £21)

the better the car feels the more (pleasureable) miles you'll do thus the cost of these items per mile will reduce

[Kentish]

SB - Nigel said:

I'm a bit confused with your costing unless I've misunderstood, you wont get new wire wheels for £90 each, MGOCS £244 chrome, each and I doubt the'd be as good as original wheels but I'd guess at £300 or more each to fully refurb your existing wheels but I could be wrong you'd have to check

personally with the wheels if you're thinking about the rear axle tube and hubs I'd change to disc hubs and put 14" Minilite copies on with perhaps 175/70 tyres, no wider

stuff for disc wheels is surely cheaper than wire

wire wheels require more maintainence (remember your push bike wheels) are harder to keep clean and are narrow in width (not always a bad thing)

If I remember right wire wheels need inner tubes??

Wheel & tyres package for 4, £461 MGOCA, for Clubsport Alloy Bolt-on wheels with Yokohama tyres

more expense - you'll need a set of 16 wheelnuts, get S/S at £31 (not chrome at £21)

the better the car feels the more (pleasureable) miles you'll do thus the cost of these items per mile will reduce

Sorry, I was wrong on the price - they are actually £95 each but these are painted and not chrome which are what I have fitted now and I prefer them to chrome.

This place are very good and I have found their products are the same as MGOC but less expensive.

http://www.mgbandmidget.com/

I'm a bit confused myself as to what I need to change to convert to bolt on wheels on a tube axle, if I decide to change wheels to alloys and not wires.

I do like the wires to be honest but I know what you mean, they are a pain and go out of balance very easily and yes they do need tubes making them even harder to keep in balance!

My wheels are in quite good condition so maybe I should sell them on and use that money toward replacment hubs and alloys.

£380 for a set of minilite reps with tyres does sound rather good

[SB - Nigel]

I would seriously take advice from knowledge (not me) people before buying brand new wire wheels at £95

some brand new parts and components can be a lot more trouble than worn original parts and components

if it wasn't for your troublesome hubs I'd have suggest changing the wires to knock-on minilite copies anyway

I actually prefer steel discs wheels with chrome hub caps or even at a push Rostyles on a B (but not a Spridget as the wheels are too small for the design IMO) but minilite copies look good on most classics

[Kentish]

Oh I love the steel wheels with hubs caps and they were fitted to some 1969 B's.

Uhhm, they could be an option if I change hubs.
I wonder whether you can still buy the steel wheels and hub caps?

I must admit, although the wire wheels are lovely and period looking that perhaps they are more trouble than they are worth.

Do you know what is involved in changing hubs to fit bolt on wheels?

Front hubs I think are quite easy, just change them over but the rears are what I'm unclear on as the wire wheels appear to have a different offset to the bolt on wheels. So when you convert from bolt on to wire wheels the new splined hubs are different in the kit to the standard splined hubs meaning that the axle or half shafts must be different between cars with bolt on hubs and those with splined hubs.

I have a tube rear axle and the diff is worn too so I could replace the entire axle with a recon one for about £40 more than just a replacment diff costs but I don't really know what I need to buy to make the change. I'd like to be certain myself before ordering as it's a whole load of hassle to return a rear axle and set of wheels if they are incorrect.

[SB - Nigel]

Note I'm not in the least a mechanic and have paid someone else to do a lot of the work on my cars

So hopefully more knowledgeable PHers will be along too

Front are hub assembly, rear is the whole back axle casing and shafts as well

I'd have thought you could swap a whole w/w back axle complete for a whole recon disc wheel back axle? enquire

Again beware who you buy from with recon stuff

I always recommend buying an Owners Handbook (£5.50) for your model and should perhaps add a Parts Catalogue (about £20) for the parts layout diagrams only, some part numbers and availability can be out of date but still very usefull for those too

[cml]

Rats - just typed a long reply and the internet ate it. My 2p:

Basically more powerful brakes and better pads won’t help much other that improve fade and feel. Once you’ve locked that’s it, no matter what fancy system you have. Once you've pushed the pedal home hard enough to lock or near lock the wheels then any extra capacity does nothing.

Learn to get the most from your brakes without locking them! Sorry if that sound obvious but seriously find somewhere where you can find out the true capacity of your brakes and how to use cadence braking (I think that is the correct term). You can’t just jam them on like on a modern car. Once you’ve locked you’ve lost control, which is not good. I learned this in a heart-stopping moment that I never want to go through again.

Get the problem of pulling to one side sorted and get good tyres. For ‘spirited’ driving high-quality brake fluid and pads will help with fade. Not sure about front/rear balance, my B always locked at the front long before the back but never found out if it could be adjusted. Suspension also makes a difference, too much bounce won’t help keep the rubber on the road. And get into the habit of checking the pressure regularly.

Spending loads on brakes is, I think, mostly a waste unless you want a track car - if you do take your B out on a track you'll soon run out of brakes and produce an impressive little cloud of smoke. Tyres should always come first, it’s that magic little patch of rubber that does all the work.

Edited by cml on Tuesday 28th July 01:07