1.8i K series HGF symptoms
Discussion
Reading that stich in time thread on the ZS120, it got me thinking, is it worth preempting a failure which could warp the head beyond economical repair...
Is there a write up online with regards to doing the job at home.
I was in the looking in the boot after I had been sitting in stop/start traffic for the last 20mins & noticed the expansion tank was full & the rad cap was seeping.
It has'nt overheated- yet
(Oil temp sits at a steady 120 deg & water is just hovering below half way)
Now, I can only imagine it to be one of 4 things:
1) Fan has stopped working
2) Coolant air lock
3) Weak Rad Cap- not pressurising the system
4) HGF
Now, if it is No.4 I was thinking that I'd like to do the job myself- so I know it's been done right. But having said that, I need to know/read up on a few things.
Is there a write up online with regards to doing the job at home.
I was in the looking in the boot after I had been sitting in stop/start traffic for the last 20mins & noticed the expansion tank was full & the rad cap was seeping.
It has'nt overheated- yet
(Oil temp sits at a steady 120 deg & water is just hovering below half way)Now, I can only imagine it to be one of 4 things:
1) Fan has stopped working
2) Coolant air lock
3) Weak Rad Cap- not pressurising the system
4) HGF
Now, if it is No.4 I was thinking that I'd like to do the job myself- so I know it's been done right. But having said that, I need to know/read up on a few things.
- Easiest way of removing the hood
- Liners sinking & rendering the engine U/S- how much higher do they have to sit proud & whats the best way to measure it (was thinking straight edge across the block & feelers)
- Head saver shim- WFT is it- never heard of it before! is that just another gasket that sits atop of the HG
- Any specialist timing tools req'd
- Is it worth replacing the water pump while apart
- Last but not least- is all the effort of scratching around on the floor for a day or two worth the saving of £280 + parts, than just chucking it into a garage & letting them get on with it?
Fantastic- exactly what I was after! Thanks very much
Not, too bad a job then- having scanned the destructions for a couple of minutes. I may have a go at that myself if it goes in future.
Looks like it was just a faulty cap afterall, but I've been keeping my eye on the temp gauge.
If it's going to go, it's going to go...Not much point in worrying about it, just going to enjoy the car
Not, too bad a job then- having scanned the destructions for a couple of minutes. I may have a go at that myself if it goes in future.
Looks like it was just a faulty cap afterall, but I've been keeping my eye on the temp gauge.
If it's going to go, it's going to go...Not much point in worrying about it, just going to enjoy the car
Yes, that all important coolant expansion bottle cap has a pressure valve built in. To operate efficently, the cooling system in most cars runs at a much higher pressure than the atmosphere. If with the passing of time that simple valve mechansim wears and weakens allowing the all important coolant pressure to escape, then the coolant will boil up at a LOWER temperature in the reduced pressure, often allowing very hot EXPANDING coolant to force its way past the worn valve in the cap cap and escape.
When that happens if not spotted by the driver say on a motorway run ~ easily overlooked as a fast 70 mph wind blows the clues away unseen under the car, then total coolant loss can follow very quickly. The engine temperature gauge reading may give a clue but, if the driver is concentrating on the fast motorway traffic and has not checked the gauges for a while .... severe overheating can cause all kinds of engine damage in short time, not just the Cylinder Head Gasket (CHG).
Bit of a myth about K-Series Cylinder Head Gasket "Failures". They RARELY actually fail, they are usually first damaged by some other agency ( usually overheating following coolant loss for whatever reason ) and then they can only fail to do the job they are designed for.
Any half decent DIYer who is not afraid to pick up a spanner can replace the cylinder head gasket on a 4 cylinder K-Series. Without any formal training, I have fettled my own cars now since I bought my first one back in 1959. I can report that K-Series CHG replacement is one of the easiest 16 valve engines to do this job on. No special tools are really needed but, the camshaft pulley locking tool ( about 4 quid off ebay ) will help although it is not essential.
Thinks ... I wonder how many 'Failed' K-Series CHGs resulted originally from a worn old Coolant Expansion Bottle Pressure Cap. I'd bet a nice few quid more than a few ...
Lets hope that's all that was needed for the OP's car. In my experience, it often is provided no damage has occurred from over heating.
When that happens if not spotted by the driver say on a motorway run ~ easily overlooked as a fast 70 mph wind blows the clues away unseen under the car, then total coolant loss can follow very quickly. The engine temperature gauge reading may give a clue but, if the driver is concentrating on the fast motorway traffic and has not checked the gauges for a while .... severe overheating can cause all kinds of engine damage in short time, not just the Cylinder Head Gasket (CHG).
Bit of a myth about K-Series Cylinder Head Gasket "Failures". They RARELY actually fail, they are usually first damaged by some other agency ( usually overheating following coolant loss for whatever reason ) and then they can only fail to do the job they are designed for.
Any half decent DIYer who is not afraid to pick up a spanner can replace the cylinder head gasket on a 4 cylinder K-Series. Without any formal training, I have fettled my own cars now since I bought my first one back in 1959. I can report that K-Series CHG replacement is one of the easiest 16 valve engines to do this job on. No special tools are really needed but, the camshaft pulley locking tool ( about 4 quid off ebay ) will help although it is not essential.
Thinks ... I wonder how many 'Failed' K-Series CHGs resulted originally from a worn old Coolant Expansion Bottle Pressure Cap. I'd bet a nice few quid more than a few ...
Lets hope that's all that was needed for the OP's car. In my experience, it often is provided no damage has occurred from over heating.
MGJohn said:
Yes, that all important coolant expansion bottle cap has a pressure valve built in. To operate efficently, the cooling system in most cars runs at a much higher pressure than the atmosphere. If with the passing of time that simple valve mechansim wears and weakens allowing the all important coolant pressure to escape, then the coolant will boil up at a LOWER temperature in the reduced pressure, often allowing very hot EXPANDING coolant to force its way past the worn valve in the cap cap and escape.
When that happens if not spotted by the driver say on a motorway run ~ easily overlooked as a fast 70 mph wind blows the clues away unseen under the car, then total coolant loss can follow very quickly. The engine temperature gauge reading may give a clue but, if the driver is concentrating on the fast motorway traffic and has not checked the gauges for a while .... severe overheating can cause all kinds of engine damage in short time, not just the Cylinder Head Gasket (CHG).
Bit of a myth about K-Series Cylinder Head Gasket "Failures". They RARELY actually fail, they are usually first damaged by some other agency ( usually overheating following coolant loss for whatever reason ) and then they can only fail to do the job they are designed for.
Any half decent DIYer who is not afraid to pick up a spanner can replace the cylinder head gasket on a 4 cylinder K-Series. Without any formal training, I have fettled my own cars now since I bought my first one back in 1959. I can report that K-Series CHG replacement is one of the easiest 16 valve engines to do this job on. No special tools are really needed but, the camshaft pulley locking tool ( about 4 quid off ebay ) will help although it is not essential.
Thinks ... I wonder how many 'Failed' K-Series CHGs resulted originally from a worn old Coolant Expansion Bottle Pressure Cap. I'd bet a nice few quid more than a few ...
Lets hope that's all that was needed for the OP's car. In my experience, it often is provided no damage has occurred from over heating.
I think the biggest problem with the 'F' and 'TF' is access to the engine because of it's position...When that happens if not spotted by the driver say on a motorway run ~ easily overlooked as a fast 70 mph wind blows the clues away unseen under the car, then total coolant loss can follow very quickly. The engine temperature gauge reading may give a clue but, if the driver is concentrating on the fast motorway traffic and has not checked the gauges for a while .... severe overheating can cause all kinds of engine damage in short time, not just the Cylinder Head Gasket (CHG).
Bit of a myth about K-Series Cylinder Head Gasket "Failures". They RARELY actually fail, they are usually first damaged by some other agency ( usually overheating following coolant loss for whatever reason ) and then they can only fail to do the job they are designed for.
Any half decent DIYer who is not afraid to pick up a spanner can replace the cylinder head gasket on a 4 cylinder K-Series. Without any formal training, I have fettled my own cars now since I bought my first one back in 1959. I can report that K-Series CHG replacement is one of the easiest 16 valve engines to do this job on. No special tools are really needed but, the camshaft pulley locking tool ( about 4 quid off ebay ) will help although it is not essential.
Thinks ... I wonder how many 'Failed' K-Series CHGs resulted originally from a worn old Coolant Expansion Bottle Pressure Cap. I'd bet a nice few quid more than a few ...
Lets hope that's all that was needed for the OP's car. In my experience, it often is provided no damage has occurred from over heating.
esselte said:
I think the biggest problem with the 'F' and 'TF' is access to the engine because of it's position...
Yes, mid engine locations on the MGF/TF or any car with that configuration does mean access can be a problem and that makes servicing more time consuming.The mainly transverse front of car location of the majority of K-Series engined cars makes working on them far easier.
ol' dirty said:
Fantastic- exactly what I was after! Thanks very much
Looks like it was just a faulty cap afterall, but I've been keeping my eye on the temp gauge.
If it's going to go, it's going to go...Not much point in worrying about it, just going to enjoy the car
Don't forget to check:Looks like it was just a faulty cap afterall, but I've been keeping my eye on the temp gauge.
If it's going to go, it's going to go...Not much point in worrying about it, just going to enjoy the car
1) Fan has stopped working
If the front radiator fan doesn't kick in you will hardley ever notice anything wrong, till you sit in a traffic jam for a while.
Newromancer said:
ol' dirty said:
Fantastic- exactly what I was after! Thanks very much
Looks like it was just a faulty cap afterall, but I've been keeping my eye on the temp gauge.
If it's going to go, it's going to go...Not much point in worrying about it, just going to enjoy the car
Don't forget to check:Looks like it was just a faulty cap afterall, but I've been keeping my eye on the temp gauge.
If it's going to go, it's going to go...Not much point in worrying about it, just going to enjoy the car
1) Fan has stopped working
If the front radiator fan doesn't kick in you will hardley ever notice anything wrong, till you sit in a traffic jam for a while.
TBH, it was the first thing that was suggested I look at, as apparently, the fan relay under the bonnet can rust out?
ol' dirty said:
TBH, it was the first thing that was suggested I look at, as apparently, the fan relay under the bonnet can rust out?
Yes, that happend to me.Two more common issues are the fuse. It sometiems blows if the fan wasn't used in a while. It is generally regarded tu use a stronger one.
Also the Coolant Temperatur Sensor might be faulty. (Quite common too.)
http://www.mgfcar.de/sensor/index.htm
Easy way to test: turn on the car and unplug the "Coolant Temperatur Sensor". The Front fan should start straight away. If that is the case you might want to check and replace the sensor. If the fan doesn't start, fuse, corroded contacts, etc...
I have been researching the head gasket problem on these cars and im half way through a head gasket change and i wonder if it would have been easier to have dropped the engine out of the car prior to doing the work.I have drilled a 3 mm by-pass hole in the stat to help reduce the risk of further problems with the head gasket.
gt2russ said:
I have been researching the head gasket problem on these cars and im half way through a head gasket change and i wonder if it would have been easier to have dropped the engine out of the car prior to doing the work.
That is a whole lot more work; disconnecting the hydragas, brake hydraulics, gear cables, wiring etc. etc. Totaly not worth it IMO.gt2russ said:
I have drilled a 3 mm by-pass hole in the stat to help reduce the risk of further problems with the head gasket.
You might find that the car takes quite a bit longer to get up to temperature in the winter. My brother did this to his Elise, and promptly replaced the thermostat with a PRT, which is a far better solution.No need to drop the engine once you have removed the wheel arch liner etc, particularly given the amount of work in removing the engine.
Much has been written, good and bad about the 1.8 K Series HGF issues, but do remember that it is not confined to MGFs but also occured frequently in Freelanders, so it is NOT just a mid-engined installation issue. Lots of theories about pressure versus temperature thermostats, temperature shock, head gasket and head bolt design etc, but no really definitive answers.
Aside from the real pressure cap problem, the basic routine is to check the water and oil levels regularly, look for signs of oil in the water and vice versa and at the first sign of any water loss, no matter how small, if those check out fine, then check and immediately fix other areas, such as:
1) The Radiator fan fuse has blown - replace it.
2) If anything has been down to disturb the cooling system, bleeding it is notoriously finicky, with 3 separate bleed points, so make sure it is bled correctly.
3) The Engine to rad metal pipes - the originals are mild steel and corrode at the spot welds for the mounting brackets along their length - they corrode and, generally, leak slowly. Replace with stainless steel.
4) The radiator, particularly on pre-TF cars, corrodes nicely and then starts to leak gently...replace with the later TF radiator
MG Mark
Much has been written, good and bad about the 1.8 K Series HGF issues, but do remember that it is not confined to MGFs but also occured frequently in Freelanders, so it is NOT just a mid-engined installation issue. Lots of theories about pressure versus temperature thermostats, temperature shock, head gasket and head bolt design etc, but no really definitive answers.
Aside from the real pressure cap problem, the basic routine is to check the water and oil levels regularly, look for signs of oil in the water and vice versa and at the first sign of any water loss, no matter how small, if those check out fine, then check and immediately fix other areas, such as:
1) The Radiator fan fuse has blown - replace it.
2) If anything has been down to disturb the cooling system, bleeding it is notoriously finicky, with 3 separate bleed points, so make sure it is bled correctly.
3) The Engine to rad metal pipes - the originals are mild steel and corrode at the spot welds for the mounting brackets along their length - they corrode and, generally, leak slowly. Replace with stainless steel.
4) The radiator, particularly on pre-TF cars, corrodes nicely and then starts to leak gently...replace with the later TF radiator
MG Mark
From what i have researched on the internet the problem with the stat is it is fitted on the return from the engine as apposed to the flow out of the engine thus the stat takes longer to react to engine tempreture and due to the volume of cooled water in the system causes the engine to be cooled in surges and the expansion and contraction of the engine causes movement and head gasket failure.Although the gasket can fail for many other reasons in my opinion this would be the major reason when you take into account the construction of the k series with the steel sleeves being not fixed through out there entire length and being of dissimilar metal to the block and head and expanding at different rates. The thermostat comes already fitted with a small bypass of 1mm so i have increased this to 2-3mm i think this will greatly help the problem although there are much better ways this is a simple fix.
Although the car will take longer to warm up it will be used during the week for trips to work through town of about 1 mile each way a day so will not have a chance to get hot anyway and probably a couple of longer runs on the weekends.I dont think 2-3mm will make a great difference to warm up time but i will see and report back.
Probably correct that its not worth dropping the engine out to change the gasket but i have found it took me 4 hours to strip the head out ready for skimming and 6 hours cleaning the engine and preparing for rebuilding, its a shame the design does not allow for easy engine removal.
Does anyone know how long in general the head gaskets last in the mgf and if mileage or age is more relevant.
The main thing i have learned is that it would be better to pay a mechanic a few hundred poundsto do the job for you IMO.
Although the car will take longer to warm up it will be used during the week for trips to work through town of about 1 mile each way a day so will not have a chance to get hot anyway and probably a couple of longer runs on the weekends.I dont think 2-3mm will make a great difference to warm up time but i will see and report back.
Probably correct that its not worth dropping the engine out to change the gasket but i have found it took me 4 hours to strip the head out ready for skimming and 6 hours cleaning the engine and preparing for rebuilding, its a shame the design does not allow for easy engine removal.
Does anyone know how long in general the head gaskets last in the mgf and if mileage or age is more relevant.
The main thing i have learned is that it would be better to pay a mechanic a few hundred poundsto do the job for you IMO.
Edited by gt2russ on Monday 1st June 23:07
Edited by gt2russ on Monday 1st June 23:09
gt2russ said:
Does anyone know how long in general the head gaskets last in the mgf and if mileage or age is more relevant.
Neither, it's more dependant on use. Lots of short trips, thrashing the engine from cold is going to spell trouble sooner rather than later (which is where the PRT helps).Driven sympathetically from cold, and provided the engine has steel dowels and the later pinned elastomer or MLS gaskets fitted then they simply shouldn't fail unless there is another problem. Contrary to popular belief, modern K series gaskets now rarely expire all by themselves provided they have been correctly installed; it's nearly always caused by loss of coolant from e.g. leaking inlet manifold seals.
Check the coolant level regularly, if it ever starts to go down then you have a leak that needs fixing before the engine toasts itself.
Poor coolant changing seems to be the cause of many as well - my TF went at 36k about 2 months after a pipe was changed as it had been chaffing, and this was done by one of the main players in MG circles. This was in a car that had always been warmed up properly etc. I wonder how many have gone at 2years(F) or 4years(TF with funny coolant) after a change of fluid?
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