Good Buy???

[ROSSGR]

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/925036.htm

Seems cheap....looking for one, looks well looked after...

opinions

[Nigel Worc's]

It looks very nice, and I'm sure it'll drive as you expect, just remember where it was made, and oh dear.....K series engine......yuk & ste.

But I can understand the appeal.

[MGJohn]

Nigel, you sure have got the hump over your unfortunate K-Series experiences. from what i read of your experiences I cannot really blame you but, there's always another side to any story.

FYI: I bought a new K-series car back in 1993 and another new one ten years later in 2003 with the "They all do that mate" 1.8 K-Series engine ....No problems so far and both cars still in the family going strong .. my 1.8 K16 being the same engine fitted to to your unfortunate car.

No problems at all but, if the 1.8 K-Series in my MGZed starts showing any early signs of coolant loss, it will be the first such experience in driving MGs since the early 1960s.

By the way, the cylinder head gasket is a doddle to change on the 4 cylinder K-Series ~ one of the easiest 16 valve engines to change this gasket.

The K-Series has the reputation of cylinder head gasket failures. Actually, these very rarely actually fail. More often than not they are first damaged by some other agency, usually coolant loss leading to engine overheating, then damaged they "fail" to do the job they're designed to do.

A lady friend has had a Rover 25 for about six years and 70,000 miles. She is one of those many car users who never check things and only lift a bonnet when something goes wrong. Guess what ... got it in one ~ something went wrong. She paid someone to replace the cylinder head gasket. Actually, costing a few hundred quid, they replaced the cylinder head with a good used one as well for whatever reason and within a few miles of completing the job, guess what ... correct ... a repeat "They all do that mate" ... failure. The poor little car stood usused on her drive for several weeks and I volunteered to have a look at it for her. I found the coolant expansion bottle half full of an emulsified oil and coolant mix not unlike a brown salad cream. Obviously something very wrong. I advised her that I could again renew the cylinder head gasket with the MLS later design for a 'friendly' sum with no guarantees as I had no idea what damage had been done prior to the 'repeat' failure. I got the go ahead.

Long story short, I did replace the gasket with the MLS one with the 'headsaver' and during the strip down process, discovered a conventional cylinder head gasket in pristine condition ~ no sign of failure at all. What I did find was that whoever replaced the gasket first time was the actual 'failure'. They had failed to replace the all important steel dowel which locates the cylinder head to block interface precisely. In addition to locating the components, that dowel serves another purpose. It contains and conducts the oil supply to the double overhead camshafts. Absent, the oil is pumped at high pressure into the head gasket layers and thus into the coolant passageways. The whole of the cooling system soon became a mix of oil and coolant.

Actually changing the gasket was a doddle and took little time. What did take a lot of time was thoroughly clearing the oil/coolant mix throughout the engine and cooling system. That was hard work. I drove the car for over a hundred miles after reassembly and it performed well with nice clean coolant and no sign of any 'failure'. That was over a year ago now and the car has passed down to her daughter who uses it to commute to Uni thiry odd miles away. That plus the occasional longer trip to Cornwall and elsewhere.

With various advices from well meaning but, mistaken "they all do that" friends ( not me ) who "know about cars", what do you think the garage would have told her had she not given up on the car and took it back for 'professional' opinion...

"They all do that mate"

Altogether now...

Oh no they dont!

Far too many professionals are the real 'failures' by letting folks down and all those ignorant owners who've had their cars serviced by professionals are convinced otherwise. Here I do speak from a number of personal experiences ~ not what some geezer dahn the pub told a friend of a friend...who watches Top Gear and stuff...

I took numerous digital pictures of the job and posted them up on another MG-R enthusiasts' web site.

Finally, before returning the car to the owner, I opened up the hatch and guess what I found in the boot.... the old cylinder head... and guess what again ... there was a dowel left in the old cylinder head. YerTis:



Here's the MLS cylinder head gasket and head saver shim prior to refitting:



Funny old game folks and their cars.... Irrespective of whichever car you drive, if you're one of those lazy types who never lift the bonnet to check unless something goes wrong... change your ways now and follow the regular checks ALL car manufacturers recommend. Doing so could save you both time and money... more than that, one day it could even save your life.

[wildoliver]

Very very sensible post. It is about time these things are put in to perspective, there are far worse engines out there, other common problems are inlet manifold gaskets going and water pumps especially. Doesn't take much of a leak to result in major water loss and head gasket failure.

Once a week is sufficient (or before a major journey) check all the fluids whether it's a mini or a ferrari, takes less than a minute, provides peace of mind and an accurate picture of the cars consumption (or hopefully not) of fluids, as well as giving you the ability to spot obvious problems (damaged hoses, corroded rads, oil leaks, tired HT leads, leaking header tanks etc.) as well as keep an eye on oil level and condition.

It's in the manual for a reason you know

[MG Mark]

Yup, all good advice, and you can do as much checking as you like, before the start of every journey, and as much servicing as you like, but it remains that the good old K series as installed in the MGF is susceptible to throwing a wobbly with a dodgy thermostat, pressure cap, water pump, leaky mild steel water pipes, rad failure etc, let alone the original head design with nylon locating pegs. For many the chances are that the dreaded HGF will appear at some time, and it is a lottery - there are those who are fortunate to whom it has never happened, as equally there are those to whom it has more than once...

MG Mark

[wildoliver]

MG Mark said:

Yup, all good advice, and you can do as much checking as you like, before the start of every journey, and as much servicing as you like, but it remains that the good old K series as installed in the MGF is susceptible to throwing a wobbly with a dodgy thermostat, pressure cap, water pump, leaky mild steel water pipes, rad failure etc, let alone the original head design with nylon locating pegs. For many the chances are that the dreaded HGF will appear at some time, and it is a lottery - there are those who are fortunate to whom it has never happened, as equally there are those to whom it has more than once...

MG Mark

I agree, but at least 90% of those faults don't appear mid journey unless your hugely unlucky, the vast majority of faults occur from a problem which has been present a while.

The K-series is hardly going to go down in history as a legendary engine, but a lot of the problems it suffers from are down to neglect, it's just a case of educating people to check over their car regularly, whether an MGF or a VW golf it is all good.

[smilerbaker]

Nigel Worc's said:

It looks very nice, and I'm sure it'll drive as you expect, just remember where it was made, and oh dear.....K series engine......yuk & ste.

But I can understand the appeal.

why are you even bothering to post in this forum??

I have had 14 or so K-series engined cars in my time, NONE have suffered from HGF, as other have rightly posted, if you look after your car you should be fine.

[Zippee]

OP - If you're looking for a good one with recently uprated head gasket then ours is for sale. 2 brand new rear tyres, MOT until April 12th 2010, 6mths tax and the sports pack 2 (305mm AP brakes, 16" 11 spoke alloys etc - as per the one you mentioned).
Its the firestone red one in the classifieds.

[Nigel Worc's]

smilerbaker said:

Nigel Worc's said:

It looks very nice, and I'm sure it'll drive as you expect, just remember where it was made, and oh dear.....K series engine......yuk & ste.

But I can understand the appeal.

why are you even bothering to post in this forum??

I have had 14 or so K-series engined cars in my time, NONE have suffered from HGF, as other have rightly posted, if you look after your car you should be fine.

I'm answering a question, from a person I've never met, and giving him the benefit of MY experience of the ill fated K series engine.

If I'd seen him or anyone else post in any forum with a question that I had experience to answer on a particular make of car, engine etc, again I'd answer with whatever experience I've had, which I guess is why many of us read the forums and post questions/answers.

This (to the best of my knowledge) isn't a "don't dare critise MG/Rover forum".

Amongst my mechanic chums/associates that engine is regarded as revolutionary, and very forward thinking for its time, all of them regard it as something Powertrain "nearly" got right, none of them regard it as a reliable engine in the modern sense, it is too delicate.

Several of them worked at the factory, and two of them at the dealerships.

[smilerbaker]

Nigel Worc's said:

smilerbaker said:

Nigel Worc's said:

It looks very nice, and I'm sure it'll drive as you expect, just remember where it was made, and oh dear.....K series engine......yuk & ste.

But I can understand the appeal.

why are you even bothering to post in this forum??

I have had 14 or so K-series engined cars in my time, NONE have suffered from HGF, as other have rightly posted, if you look after your car you should be fine.

I'm answering a question, from a person I've never met, and giving him the benefit of MY experience of the ill fated K series engine.

If I'd seen him or anyone else post in any forum with a question that I had experience to answer on a particular make of car, engine etc, again I'd answer with whatever experience I've had, which I guess is why many of us read the forums and post questions/answers.

This (to the best of my knowledge) isn't a "don't dare critise MG/Rover forum".

Amongst my mechanic chums/associates that engine is regarded as revolutionary, and very forward thinking for its time, all of them regard it as something Powertrain "nearly" got right, none of them regard it as a reliable engine in the modern sense, it is too delicate.

Several of them worked at the factory, and two of them at the dealerships.

"just remember where it was made, and oh dear.....K series engine......yuk & ste." is not the benefit of your experiance is the same old tired BS that idiots have be spouting about mg/rover for years, the HGF is well documented as are the reasons for it, I understand you have a k series let go on you, so now you slag the off at an oppotunity, on the flip side I have never had a k-series let go on me and I have had many, the only thing I can put that down to is I actually look after my cars a little bit, and lift the bonnet before steam start pouring out of them.
I would bet a lot of the failures are down to people buying a £500 rover, ragging the arse off it all the time, never checking anything, then moaning when it goes pop. Just my 2p's worth

[MGJohn]

There are a number of other car marques which also suffer from cylinder head gasket damage and typical of our media, these rarely ever or, never get a mention whilst TV Watchdog types et al repeatedly get up on the highest building shouting the odds when a K-series cylinder head gasket fails. Incidentally, they rarely actually fail, they are usually damaged first often caused by over heating following coolant loss, then damaged they are unable to do the job they're designed for and so 'fail'.

It can and does happen to any car depending on circumstances.

I recently recovered a work colleague's broken down car for him on my twin axle trailer. He had been advised that the cylinder head gasket had 'failed'. His car not only needed a new replacement gasket, it needed a new cylinder head such was the severity of the heat damage.

The car .... one of those that never ever go wrong according to our media ... a Toyota.

Driving back with the car on my trailer, each time I glanced in my rear view mirror I saw it and these words went through my mind.

The car behind is a Toyota...

There are several k-Series cars in my family including my own MGZS 1.8 which my wife mainly drives. Touch wood, all have never needed a replacement cylinder head gasket ~ always a first time though...fortunately, renewing that gasket is a relatively easy task on the 4-cylindered K-series.

Following all the negative media publicity overkill some years ago, many in the trade saw these so called K-Series 'failures' as nice little earners and so took advanyage. One brave soul on another car web site actually admitted having changed about a hundred K-series gaskets, many of which did not need it! Quite often, there are other reasons for K-series problems but, quite often the real cause is never identified. Invariably both owners, drivers and those in the trade immediately think 'failure' whenever a K-Series is involved such has been the level of adverse publicity.
.

[MGJohn]

Nigel Worc's said:

...... MY experience of the ill fated K series engine.

"ill fated"

Bit OTT Drama Queen stuff that ....

..... purely in the interests of balance, in MY experience of rather more than ONE K-Series, none have been ... er, .... ill fated... Quite the opposite.

smilerbaker said:

I would bet a lot of the failures are down to people buying a £500 rover, ragging the arse off it all the time, never checking anything, then moaning when it goes pop. Just my 2p's worth

You'd win that bet but, the odds would be poor as your observation is a very valid one.
.

[Robert060379]

Have you bought it yet? My misses's gay hairdresser wants a test drive.

[andymadmak]

Nigel Worc's said:

It looks very nice, and I'm sure it'll drive as you expect, just remember where it was made, and oh dear.....K series engine......yuk & ste.

But I can understand the appeal.

Oh dear. Nigel you are obsessed. I'm sorry for your bad experience, but it's really not the case for everyone that their K series will go pop. As others on here have so eloquently posted, there are many reasons for K "failure" and not all are HG related.
For the record, my KV6 engined ZTT 190 is now at 108k miles with no sign of any issues with HGF. (or any other major issues on the car at all for that matter)

Now, in the interests of balance, I'll tell you about the two cars that preceded my ZTT.
1, Volvo S60 2.0T SE. Owned from new
total 80k miles covered. In that time the following faults occured:

1, Clutch failure (first time ever for me in nearly 30 years of driving)
2, NS front suspension came loose (yes, really loose, I was 3 thread turns away from a massive accident and possible death of my family)
3, Engine cut out randomly - This was very dangerous as it would happen at any time and power loss was total. It was reported at first service and every subsequent one. It was taken in between services to be looked at but it was never fixed by Volvo, despite 3 dealers andd 4 years of trying. volvo did hint that they knew about the problem, and even had a fix for it, if I paid them an extr £350 for the upgrade....
4, Car would unlock itself in the rain
5, The paint fell off in places
6, The electric windows would go down, but not up
7, the drivers eat collapsed 9I'm not that big!)
8, More squeeks and rattles than a mouse convention in a baby store
9, Bulb failures literally every week (mechanic told me this was a known power issue with no fix)
10, It leaked water in
11, it burned oil like mad ( volvo: no fault sir)
12, Finally the engine just died.

When I bought this car, I bought a second Volvo of the same type for a colleague. He experienced almost the same litany of faults as I did ( except the suspension)

Before that, I had a 5 series BMW (525) Again, owned from new. Did 80k miles.
It was OK, but did suffer the following faults

1, Double Vanos failure. This happened just fter the warranty expired and BMW, despite this being a very common fault waived two fingers at me for the repair. I cry when I remember how much it cost to fix!
2, rear suspension bush failure (not sure which one, but it drove very strangely!)
3, Wiper motor developed a mind of its own
4, Random electrical and airbag faults.

Back in the 90s I also once owned an Audi Avant TDi that we nicknamed Christine, -yes, it was that evil. I got to know the AA recovery man on a first name basis.

All in all, my current ZT, which I have kept for for far longer than any car I've had (aside from my garage toys) is the single most reliable car I have ever owned.
By all means speak as you find Nigel, but please, don't assume that you are typical. Ask any petrol powered VW driver of a few years ago about coil packs and their cars being off the road for weeks at a time, and you'll see grown men and women pale into rage, and don't mention the persistant engine management faults and gearbox issues on my wifes Mercedes......

Lastly, I think I am right in saying that its actually a fiat engine ( the one in the Punto) that statistically suffers the highest rate of HGF, closely followed by the engine in the Daewoo (now Chevvy) Matiz..... K series is a paragon compared to these! lol

Andy