Thinking of buying an MGF
Discussion
I've found what looks to be a very nice, clean, well cared for MGF VVC at what I think is a very tempting price (i.e. ~£3.5K, which is dirt cheap compared with an MX-5 of similiar age/mileage/condition!). It's a 1989 model with 39K miles on the clock, & it's got a full dealer service history.
Now, while the car suits me down to the ground in terms of giving myself and my wife a second car that bridges her need for something practical, civilised, easy to drive, unintimidating, and not too conspicuous and my desire for a little fun at the weekend I feel the need to know a little more about this K-Series head gasket business...
Given the relatively low mileage, that it looks like it's been very well cared for, shows no signs of abuse, no signs of previous overheating (coolant spills etc), and the servicing's been done by a main dealer (who presumably can be relied on to have bled the cooling system properly etc) exactly how concerned should I be, are there any pre-emptive steps I can take to improve my chances, and (roughly!) how much is it likely to cost me if I do wake up one morning to find that all the coolant's disapeared and my sump's full of mayonnaise?
--
Jonathon
Now, while the car suits me down to the ground in terms of giving myself and my wife a second car that bridges her need for something practical, civilised, easy to drive, unintimidating, and not too conspicuous and my desire for a little fun at the weekend I feel the need to know a little more about this K-Series head gasket business...
Given the relatively low mileage, that it looks like it's been very well cared for, shows no signs of abuse, no signs of previous overheating (coolant spills etc), and the servicing's been done by a main dealer (who presumably can be relied on to have bled the cooling system properly etc) exactly how concerned should I be, are there any pre-emptive steps I can take to improve my chances, and (roughly!) how much is it likely to cost me if I do wake up one morning to find that all the coolant's disapeared and my sump's full of mayonnaise?
--
Jonathon
wildoliver said:
I have a friend with a vvc for sale sounds a really nice car pm me your number if your interested and I'll pass it along, its about the same price from memory.
Depends where it is - I see from your profile that you're in Yorkshire so unless your friend's a bit closer to Essex I might have to pass on that
Thanks for the thought anyway though...
--
JG
From what I have read, it seems that k-series engines built from 2001 to 2005 suffer the most from HGF. Earlier models seem less susceptible.
If the car has been well cared for and the serviced on the button, it should be OK.
I drove a TF last year for a couple of days and I actually had a good laugh in it
though they have 'proper' suspension unlike the F's oleospastic system.
If the car has been well cared for and the serviced on the button, it should be OK.
I drove a TF last year for a couple of days and I actually had a good laugh in it
though they have 'proper' suspension unlike the F's oleospastic system. Get into the habit of checking the water levels weekly. Too many people are used to more modern cars and don't even bother checking the oil or tyres weekly.... this was one of the problems; owners were letting the water levels drop, the car would overheat (engine in the back = poor cooling, even with the vents) and the gasket would fail.
There is a better triple layered gasket available if it does go; this seems to solve the problem.
There is a better triple layered gasket available if it does go; this seems to solve the problem.
bigbadbikercats said:
exactly how concerned should I be?
From my experience* I'd say your should rank this risk slightly higher than alien abduction.
*
02 MG ZR 60K miles no problem
96 MGF 150K no problem
93 Rover 216 260K no problem
92 Rover 214 160K no problem
I have, however, had HGFs with Ford, Vauxhall, Skoda and Triumphs.
This really does seem to be one of those problems that people who have never had one 'know' all about. If the worst does happen then I'd say ~£100 DIY, £250 local garage, £400 Main dealer.
Go get one!
bob1179 said:
From what I have read, it seems that k-series engines built from 2001 to 2005 suffer the most from HGF. Earlier models seem less susceptible.
Bob, the advice I received from the MG owners club said the opposite of this, the earlier cars were more prone to HGF?
I'll try to find the email & post it up, may even be worthy of a sticky as it had some general tips re buying advice.
Jonathan not sure where Mike Satur are based (think not too far from you) they are MG specialists & may do the HGF warning kits, they do replacment HGF IIRC.
My pal has a 99 VVC, 2nd owner full history & has had no issues at all, however might be just, down to luck ?
Folks
here is some useful info on HGF & the MGF from Roger Parker of the MG owners club. Aplogies if a bit long winded, not sure this warrants a sticky?
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Many questions generated by information that is inherently muddled and consequently pretty valueless when thinking about spending your own money!
MGF in the pre 1999 period had a pretty bad rate for head gasket failures (HGF) and a number of other problems including water leaking into the car and other minor reliability issues. 1999 and 2000 model cars were much, much better and then there was another significant improvement for cars made after spring 2001.
The TF arrived in January 2002 and built on the vast improvements made through the life of MGF. There were some significant improvements in cooling and other mechanical functions, notably suspension where the previous Hydrogas system which when spot on was in a class lead of it's own, but when not was a pain. Adopting steel springs instead of the fluid over gas system simplified things tremendously and provided consistency that was previously missing.
TF didn't stand still as the summer of 2003 saw yet more significant improvements to the cooling system and then 12 months later an additional simple feature of a coolant level warning lamp which was a bright bauble on a well iced cake!
The HGF issue is by far the most significant issue to affect the MGF and this tainted the TF too - unfairly. Let me put some perspective on this. Between 1998 and 2002 I can account for over 900 conversations with MGF owners whose car had suffered from a head gasket failure. Most of these were with owners of cars made before 1999 and the issue of HGF is one that far too many early MGF owners will have to face at some time during their ownership period. Even so when looking at the total number of cars made my 900 plus conversations is still less than 1.2% of that total.
With regard to the TF I have since the model launch in late January 2002 noted conversations with just 22 owners whose cars had suffered a HGF. Now this is a guide only and as time passes there are far more people understanding the problem and not needing to speak to the likes of me or others in the know about what the problem with their car is, but even so the difference is stunning. Incidentally when the production lines stopped last April just over b 39,000 TFs had been made.
In addition it is worth noting that whilst the failure rate for TF is not even a shadow of the MGF failure rate I can show a clear definition line between different aged TFs. All the cars I know of that have suffered a failure were made before the summer of 2003 and the reason this is significant is because of the introduction of what is known as the Pressure Relief Thermostat. This was in my view the icing on the cake in putting to bed the spectre of HGF, but of course all TFs are tarred with the early MGF reputation.
So the logic of which is best should be obvious, in the newer the better. Newer cars will by definition almost always have a full dealer service history although some may have non dealer servicing recently. The issue on FSH is only of real immediate importance where your looking for a warranty and there are many to chose from including those which we have negotiated with a provider who previously gave the optional (cost) 4th and 5th year MG Rover warranty, so they know the cars. (www.lancaster-ins.co.uk/warranty/warranty_home.htm)
Reliability though generally is as good as most other makes and one clear pointer to this is the moaning in some MG and Rover spares circles that they have invested heavily in spare parts for these cars only to find that they are moving very little. There are two pointers from this, one is that parts are not wearing out and don't need changing, and two is that the faster turnover parts like brake and clutch friction materials, exhausts and electrical items, commonly the parts in greater demand are being easily serviced from High St suppliers, not that the demand is high anyway. I feel that much of the previous spares turnover, which probably applies to every other manufacturer too, is that most parts were changed under warranty and in many respects there is not a need for that part to have been changed. Many manufacturers are trying to reduce the warranty parts changed as many are found to be serviceable on return. Now with the original manufacturers warranty out of the window there isn't the simple 'change this and that' attitude, or indeed expectation.
Now most owners appreciate that warranty is far less encompassing and so much more would be out of their pocket and so a minor squeak or occasional rattle is lived with and in many cases often settles down over time anyway. This is amplified by the dealers who have sold cars with an aftermarket warranty much more reluctant to simply take on a warranty repair where there is no clear cut case for change and in many cases they need the authority of the warranty company before changing anyway.
Use of an MG TF (or MGF) is like any other modern car and can be treated the same and can be expected to perform the same. However, the TF (and MGF) can return usually much better fuel consumption than competitors.
Air con was a standard feature for all Japanese market cars from 1995 when the MGF was introduced there. It has proven to be an adequate system for the car and was carried over to the MG TF. The only downside is a small intrusion into the passenger footwell space compared to a non aircon car.
Early TF 135 models were in a CO2 group higher than the TF 160 and so a slightly higher road tax rate applies together with around a 2mpg penalty. Later TF135 models were retuned and when retested fell into the same CO2 group as the TF160. The fuel consumption and annual tax are therefore much the same.
Cars are much better used regularly and periods of inactivity of three to four weeks or more will see the battery flattened from the security system, a problem that would apply to other cars left idle for such periods I would add. However, if the car is to be used infrequently with such periods between use then for convenience and battery longevity a battery management system (very low level charger digitally controlled) should be connected. These are common items for classic cars.
Servicing is as straight forward as seen for a Rover 214, with the only complication being that the engine is less accessible and so times for doing jobs can be extended by 50%. There is nothing really complex in the aspects of normal servicing, although some repairs in distant years have added degrees of complexity and of course cost. (Clutch change for example.)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
here is some useful info on HGF & the MGF from Roger Parker of the MG owners club. Aplogies if a bit long winded, not sure this warrants a sticky?
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Many questions generated by information that is inherently muddled and consequently pretty valueless when thinking about spending your own money!
MGF in the pre 1999 period had a pretty bad rate for head gasket failures (HGF) and a number of other problems including water leaking into the car and other minor reliability issues. 1999 and 2000 model cars were much, much better and then there was another significant improvement for cars made after spring 2001.
The TF arrived in January 2002 and built on the vast improvements made through the life of MGF. There were some significant improvements in cooling and other mechanical functions, notably suspension where the previous Hydrogas system which when spot on was in a class lead of it's own, but when not was a pain. Adopting steel springs instead of the fluid over gas system simplified things tremendously and provided consistency that was previously missing.
TF didn't stand still as the summer of 2003 saw yet more significant improvements to the cooling system and then 12 months later an additional simple feature of a coolant level warning lamp which was a bright bauble on a well iced cake!
The HGF issue is by far the most significant issue to affect the MGF and this tainted the TF too - unfairly. Let me put some perspective on this. Between 1998 and 2002 I can account for over 900 conversations with MGF owners whose car had suffered from a head gasket failure. Most of these were with owners of cars made before 1999 and the issue of HGF is one that far too many early MGF owners will have to face at some time during their ownership period. Even so when looking at the total number of cars made my 900 plus conversations is still less than 1.2% of that total.
With regard to the TF I have since the model launch in late January 2002 noted conversations with just 22 owners whose cars had suffered a HGF. Now this is a guide only and as time passes there are far more people understanding the problem and not needing to speak to the likes of me or others in the know about what the problem with their car is, but even so the difference is stunning. Incidentally when the production lines stopped last April just over b 39,000 TFs had been made.
In addition it is worth noting that whilst the failure rate for TF is not even a shadow of the MGF failure rate I can show a clear definition line between different aged TFs. All the cars I know of that have suffered a failure were made before the summer of 2003 and the reason this is significant is because of the introduction of what is known as the Pressure Relief Thermostat. This was in my view the icing on the cake in putting to bed the spectre of HGF, but of course all TFs are tarred with the early MGF reputation.
So the logic of which is best should be obvious, in the newer the better. Newer cars will by definition almost always have a full dealer service history although some may have non dealer servicing recently. The issue on FSH is only of real immediate importance where your looking for a warranty and there are many to chose from including those which we have negotiated with a provider who previously gave the optional (cost) 4th and 5th year MG Rover warranty, so they know the cars. (www.lancaster-ins.co.uk/warranty/warranty_home.htm)
Reliability though generally is as good as most other makes and one clear pointer to this is the moaning in some MG and Rover spares circles that they have invested heavily in spare parts for these cars only to find that they are moving very little. There are two pointers from this, one is that parts are not wearing out and don't need changing, and two is that the faster turnover parts like brake and clutch friction materials, exhausts and electrical items, commonly the parts in greater demand are being easily serviced from High St suppliers, not that the demand is high anyway. I feel that much of the previous spares turnover, which probably applies to every other manufacturer too, is that most parts were changed under warranty and in many respects there is not a need for that part to have been changed. Many manufacturers are trying to reduce the warranty parts changed as many are found to be serviceable on return. Now with the original manufacturers warranty out of the window there isn't the simple 'change this and that' attitude, or indeed expectation.
Now most owners appreciate that warranty is far less encompassing and so much more would be out of their pocket and so a minor squeak or occasional rattle is lived with and in many cases often settles down over time anyway. This is amplified by the dealers who have sold cars with an aftermarket warranty much more reluctant to simply take on a warranty repair where there is no clear cut case for change and in many cases they need the authority of the warranty company before changing anyway.
Use of an MG TF (or MGF) is like any other modern car and can be treated the same and can be expected to perform the same. However, the TF (and MGF) can return usually much better fuel consumption than competitors.
Air con was a standard feature for all Japanese market cars from 1995 when the MGF was introduced there. It has proven to be an adequate system for the car and was carried over to the MG TF. The only downside is a small intrusion into the passenger footwell space compared to a non aircon car.
Early TF 135 models were in a CO2 group higher than the TF 160 and so a slightly higher road tax rate applies together with around a 2mpg penalty. Later TF135 models were retuned and when retested fell into the same CO2 group as the TF160. The fuel consumption and annual tax are therefore much the same.
Cars are much better used regularly and periods of inactivity of three to four weeks or more will see the battery flattened from the security system, a problem that would apply to other cars left idle for such periods I would add. However, if the car is to be used infrequently with such periods between use then for convenience and battery longevity a battery management system (very low level charger digitally controlled) should be connected. These are common items for classic cars.
Servicing is as straight forward as seen for a Rover 214, with the only complication being that the engine is less accessible and so times for doing jobs can be extended by 50%. There is nothing really complex in the aspects of normal servicing, although some repairs in distant years have added degrees of complexity and of course cost. (Clutch change for example.)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by finchy on Tuesday 9th January 14:22
Wicker Man said:
bigbadbikercats said:
exactly how concerned should I be?
This really does seem to be one of those problems that people who have never had one 'know' all about. If the worst does happen then I'd say ~£100 DIY, £250 local garage, £400 Main dealer.
Go get one!
Be interested to know of ANY MG-R dealers past OR present that would carry out a HG repair on an F/TF for £400??....
£1K+ would be a more likely figure!..
Mark Leonard said:
Wicker Man said:
bigbadbikercats said:
exactly how concerned should I be?
This really does seem to be one of those problems that people who have never had one 'know' all about. If the worst does happen then I'd say ~£100 DIY, £250 local garage, £400 Main dealer.
Go get one!
Be interested to know of ANY MG-R dealers past OR present that would carry out a HG repair on an F/TF for £400??....
£1K+ would be a more likely figure!..
With all due respect to those who've contributed (I'm quite sure that you're all telling the story exactly how you see it, with the best of intentions, and on the basis of some level of experience so please don't take this as any kind of personal criticism!) this is exactly the sort of thing which (having heard vague stories about K-powered Freelanders and done a quick bit of Google-Fu) made me feel the need to raise the subject here in the first place - there seem to be dozens of conflicting opinions as to the root cause of the problem, dozens of definitive fixes, and dozens of conflicting opinions as to how widespread the problem really is so I'm really finding it very hard to form a any kind of coherent picture...
At the moment my inclination is to try to get the dealer to throw in an extended warranty (having had a good look at the small print first - I've seen one which specifically excluded the cost of skimming a head folowing HGF!) and if I can, or if I can get enough off the price to leave a decent size chunk of money in the bank towards the cost of any failure (as I'm already well under budget on the car it wouldn't take that much of a discount to get me there).
The thing is, I really like the car. I think it's got genuine charm, it's fun to drive without being too demanding for making my current weekly trip up the M11/A14/M6 to Birmingham now and again, and there's precious little else I've seen which straddles the gap between what my wife and I are looking for in a second car as well as the little MG does...
--
Jonathon
Jonathon, it looks like you've already talked youself into buying the UKs most popular sportscar. Do it! Do It! Do it! And do it now while the weather is rubbish so you get the best deal.
The small possibility of a HGF really shouldn't put you off, although to be honest I'd make a big song and dance about it if I was buying
. Should you need one, Headgaskets are available from the MGOC for £27.95 or Halfwits might be cheaper and they offer free fitting too.*
* Only kidding. You'd actually need a full Headgasket set for £87.55 if you DIY. The MGOC just quoted me £800 to replace a Headgasket. That includes parts inc cambelt and vat.
I'm in the wrong job! I've shifted some difficuly cylinder heads in my time and don't believe you can't swop an MGF one in a day. My worstest HGFs:
3rd worst - outside by torchlight, car needed next day. Ford.
2nd worst - removal of cylinder head in scrapyard from car stacked ontop of another. Ford
worst worst - 3 studs snapped so had to weld bars onto their remains. TR7.
The small possibility of a HGF really shouldn't put you off, although to be honest I'd make a big song and dance about it if I was buying
. Should you need one, Headgaskets are available from the MGOC for £27.95 or Halfwits might be cheaper and they offer free fitting too.* * Only kidding. You'd actually need a full Headgasket set for £87.55 if you DIY. The MGOC just quoted me £800 to replace a Headgasket. That includes parts inc cambelt and vat.
I'm in the wrong job! I've shifted some difficuly cylinder heads in my time and don't believe you can't swop an MGF one in a day. My worstest HGFs:
3rd worst - outside by torchlight, car needed next day. Ford.
2nd worst - removal of cylinder head in scrapyard from car stacked ontop of another. Ford
worst worst - 3 studs snapped so had to weld bars onto their remains. TR7.
Wicker Man said:
worst worst - 3 studs snapped so had to weld bars onto their remains. TR7.
Now there's an interesting coincidence, I still have vivid memories of having to get my father-in-law to weld bits of metal onto the mangled remains of a couple of the bolts holding the rocker boxes down on a Triumph T140 motorcycle a few years back and I'd rate that as the worst mechanical job I've ever tackled[1] too :-)
Works a treat mind, not only does it allow you to apply some proper torque to mangled fasteners without risking further peripheral damage but the thermal shock effect (rapid expension and contraction) goes a long way towards unseizing the threads which caused the problem in the first place...
[1] A close second being the apparently simple job of replacing the bypass hose on a Mini - how can such an innocuous looking bit of rubber tube held on with jubilee clips cause so much pain and frustration?
--
JG
bigbadbikercats said:
Mark Leonard said:
Wicker Man said:
bigbadbikercats said:
exactly how concerned should I be?
This really does seem to be one of those problems that people who have never had one 'know' all about. If the worst does happen then I'd say ~£100 DIY, £250 local garage, £400 Main dealer.
Go get one!
Be interested to know of ANY MG-R dealers past OR present that would carry out a HG repair on an F/TF for £400??....
£1K+ would be a more likely figure!..
With all due respect to those who've contributed (I'm quite sure that you're all telling the story exactly how you see it, with the best of intentions, and on the basis of some level of experience so please don't take this as any kind of personal criticism!) this is exactly the sort of thing which (having heard vague stories about K-powered Freelanders and done a quick bit of Google-Fu) made me feel the need to raise the subject here in the first place - there seem to be dozens of conflicting opinions as to the root cause of the problem, dozens of definitive fixes, and dozens of conflicting opinions as to how widespread the problem really is so I'm really finding it very hard to form a any kind of coherent picture...
At the moment my inclination is to try to get the dealer to throw in an extended warranty (having had a good look at the small print first - I've seen one which specifically excluded the cost of skimming a head folowing HGF!) and if I can, or if I can get enough off the price to leave a decent size chunk of money in the bank towards the cost of any failure (as I'm already well under budget on the car it wouldn't take that much of a discount to get me there).
The thing is, I really like the car. I think it's got genuine charm, it's fun to drive without being too demanding for making my current weekly trip up the M11/A14/M6 to Birmingham now and again, and there's precious little else I've seen which straddles the gap between what my wife and I are looking for in a second car as well as the little MG does...
--
Jonathon
Jonathon.
I have owed both F and TF over the last 5 years or so, I go to our local owners club meet, and have traveled all over the UK on F/TF events, my old 'F' was even a Display car at MGF 10 in october 05.
IMHO the F/TF are the BEST roadsters in their class, both in looks, performance and VFM when compared to a MX or MR!.
However!, like ANY car they have their problems, the main one being the K-series engine, and it's liking for HGs. I dont base this opinion on some 'Bar stool mechanic's' rantings, or even for that matter the many posts, on the many internet forums dedicated to MG-R, I base it on first hand experiance from owning both cars, and the many owners I speak to both local, and national!.
As said above "Buy one!", the grin factor alone is worth the outlay, but if you do the right checks and research, your ownership experiance will be even more fun than ever!.
If you need a 'buyers guide' for whichever model you decide on, I would be happy to provide one!
Or as an alternative just ask on our owners site below.
http://fregister.proboards37.com/inde
Edited by Mark Leonard on Wednesday 10th January 12:44
S6 ROR said:
Wicker Man said:
Do it! Do It! Do it! And do it now while the weather is rubbish so you get the best deal.
Steve, stop sitting on the fence and say what you really mean
Hi Nigel
Have you found an MGF you like yet or are you holding out for that last one made? bigbadbikercats Have you made your mind up/bought one yet?
Wicker Man said:
[quote=S6 ROR]
bigbadbikercats Have you made your mind up/bought one yet?
bigbadbikercats Have you made your mind up/bought one yet?
Going to go haggle, have a closer look, and take a longer drive on Saturday - I'd say that there's a very good chance I'll buy it if nothing horrendous comes to light.
Even if I don't buy this one I'd say an F was still strongly in the frame unless something else stupendously bargainous comes along because there's not many cars that match Rosalyn's requirement for something practical, non-intimidating, and easy to live with and my desire for fun at that price point - theoretically an MX5 ought to hit the spot but all the ones I've looked at in the last couple of weeks have been utter sheds compared to the sort of F you can get at the same price!
--
Jonathon
[1] A close second being the apparently simple job of replacing the bypass hose on a Mini - how can such an innocuous looking bit of rubber tube held on with jubilee clips cause so much pain and frustration?
--
JG[/quote]
Oh yes! It does get easier after the third one though! I seem to remember removing the grill, alternator and water pump to get at it properly.
Deed done!
Rosalyn (Mrs BikerCats) was utterly smitten[1] with the F when she drove it and hated the MX-5 we tried so that was that[2]. We're warrantied (with a specific assurance that any additional costs due to HGF will be paid for by the dealer) for 12 months.
[1] No kidding - within 10 minutes we'd gone from "I don't like driving and I really don't like driving strange cars" to "Actually I could quite fancy doing a track day in this...", which left me utterly gobsmacked!
[2] I actually liked the MX-5 better as a drivers car but the F's a tons better all-round package - The MX-5 has the most incredibly communicative steering of any car I've ever driven apart from a Westfield and a RAW Striker I sampled at Bedford a few months back but it really would have been a bit of a PITA on longer trips like my regular Braintree<->Birmingham commutes and in spite of having a proper boot it's got bugger-all luggage space.
--
JG
Rosalyn (Mrs BikerCats) was utterly smitten[1] with the F when she drove it and hated the MX-5 we tried so that was that[2]. We're warrantied (with a specific assurance that any additional costs due to HGF will be paid for by the dealer) for 12 months.
[1] No kidding - within 10 minutes we'd gone from "I don't like driving and I really don't like driving strange cars" to "Actually I could quite fancy doing a track day in this...", which left me utterly gobsmacked!
[2] I actually liked the MX-5 better as a drivers car but the F's a tons better all-round package - The MX-5 has the most incredibly communicative steering of any car I've ever driven apart from a Westfield and a RAW Striker I sampled at Bedford a few months back but it really would have been a bit of a PITA on longer trips like my regular Braintree<->Birmingham commutes and in spite of having a proper boot it's got bugger-all luggage space.
--
JG
Gassing Station | MG | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff