RE: Government must step in say Rover-istas
Wednesday 4th May 2005
Could the SV become Chinese?MG and Rover enthusiasts have demanded that the British Government intervene to thwart plans by Chinese car manufacturer SAIC, to cherry-pick assets from MG Rover Group Limited’s beleaguered Longbridge plant.
Government must step in say Rover-istas
Fans demand Chinese cherry-picking be stopped
Could the SV become Chinese?
And in the latest in a series of demonstrations, Rover enthusiasts will be joining ex-MG Rover employees outside Longbridge to show their support for all those affected by recent events at Longbridge. The event starts on Thursday 5 May at 10am outside Q Gate at Longbridge.
An online opinion poll undertaken by MG-Rover.org – the world’s biggest MG and Rover enthusiasts’ Web site – revealed that nearly 93 per cent of those surveyed wanted immediate government intervention to stop the transfer of assets to China. The poll comes only days after the Chinese manufacturer indicated that it may be preparing for a swoop upon the remnants of the UK’s last volume car manufacturer.
MG-Rover.org Webmaster Steve Childs said, "There is immense anger and frustration amongst many MG and Rover enthusiasts as a result of SAIC’s sudden interest in some MG Rover Group’s assets. It does appear to be suspicious at the very least that after SAIC appeared to stall the talks on the joint venture, while knowing the financial state of MG Rover.
"Perhaps it was their plan all along to delay as long as possible, knowing that MG Rover’s entry into administration would allow them to gain access to the manufacturing capability of MG Rover whilst avoiding any potential liabilities as a Joint Venture partner and save a substantial amount of money as well.
"It would therefore be wrong if SAIC, aided and abetted by the Chinese government, were able to cherry-pick the remains of MG Rover Group, effectively getting what they wanted and at the same time stick two fingers up at the thousands of workers, who are now concerned about their own and their family’s future.
"Some commentators have generously referred to SAIC’s intentions as asset stripping. However for MG and Rover enthusiasts, ‘grave robbery’ would be a more accurate description.
"Despite recent events, I believe there is a sustainable future for volume car manufacturing in the UK in general, and at Longbridge in particular. However, central to realising that future, is preserving the Longbridge site as a manufacturing operation and avoiding a situation whereby Chinese companies can appear to effectively instigate a ‘fire sale’.
"It is therefore incumbent that HM Government shows a similar level of support to British manufacturers, as the Chinese government has shown for its indigenous manufacturing industry. A start would be for HM Government to immediately take action to obstruct Chinese plans for the relocation of MG Rover plant, production and equipment to China."
Discussion
Rover Enthusiasts 
From an economical point of view, I understand that the labels MG/Rover and the development of the 75 are worth serious money. Continuing build of the other models could give some profit too.
However, the way they were manufactured ie. the entire infrastructure in Longbridge including everything HR made it difficult to pay for the costs of Phoenix' enterprise (allegations about the management aside).
If the government supported MGR, it could possibly be cheaper in the short term than paying for 15...20k unemployed people. But what will it look like in 2010?
If SAIC took over the remains, they would only pick the important assets, and use existing manufacturing capacities in China. They could make good profit with that business, while the UK government had to carry the loss of employment and all consequences.
From an economical point of view, I understand that the labels MG/Rover and the development of the 75 are worth serious money. Continuing build of the other models could give some profit too.
However, the way they were manufactured ie. the entire infrastructure in Longbridge including everything HR made it difficult to pay for the costs of Phoenix' enterprise (allegations about the management aside).
If the government supported MGR, it could possibly be cheaper in the short term than paying for 15...20k unemployed people. But what will it look like in 2010?
If SAIC took over the remains, they would only pick the important assets, and use existing manufacturing capacities in China. They could make good profit with that business, while the UK government had to carry the loss of employment and all consequences.
"Perhaps it was their plan all along to delay as long as possible, knowing that MG Rover’s entry into administration would allow them to gain access to the manufacturing capability of MG Rover whilst avoiding any potential liabilities as a Joint Venture partner and save a substantial amount of money as well."
This is exactly what I was thinking they were 'up to', why would a company take the risks of a partnership when it could wait for its so-called partner to die, then pick up the remains cheap. Its quite ruthless (if indeed this was the plan, im not saying it was....) and should be fought all the way; if they didnt want MGR in the first place, why would they want it now?? Are there any political parties that will support British industry???
(que Labour, Tory, Lib Dem candidate..........)
This is exactly what I was thinking they were 'up to', why would a company take the risks of a partnership when it could wait for its so-called partner to die, then pick up the remains cheap. Its quite ruthless (if indeed this was the plan, im not saying it was....) and should be fought all the way; if they didnt want MGR in the first place, why would they want it now?? Are there any political parties that will support British industry???
(que Labour, Tory, Lib Dem candidate..........)
From what I understand, (and reported in Autocar this week) SIAC might have problems sourcing parts, production lines and just about anything from the remnants of MGR. Sounds daft, but many suppliers have been crying foul of MGR recently (supplier accuses MGR of not paying £1M bill etc!). But in fact many were astute enough to switch to other parts / products.
According to Autocar this week, one big supplier has de-tooled already and is refusing to re-tool again. Ok, money talks, but SIAC might need to look elsewhere for parts / components and other stuff for the products they have bought. Would be suprised if SIAC actually get anything other than a few firm contracts with suppliers......
Cherry picking wont occur I believe as there are supposed to be up to 12 different consortia looking at the MGR group. From what I understand there are around 4-6 which are strong, but KPMG (IIRC) hold the cards and will go for the best offer for all - and we wont know until its made public; though this is rumoured to be at the end of the week.....
According to Autocar this week, one big supplier has de-tooled already and is refusing to re-tool again. Ok, money talks, but SIAC might need to look elsewhere for parts / components and other stuff for the products they have bought. Would be suprised if SIAC actually get anything other than a few firm contracts with suppliers......
Cherry picking wont occur I believe as there are supposed to be up to 12 different consortia looking at the MGR group. From what I understand there are around 4-6 which are strong, but KPMG (IIRC) hold the cards and will go for the best offer for all - and we wont know until its made public; though this is rumoured to be at the end of the week.....
gofasterrosssco said:
why would a company take the risks of a partnership when it could wait for its so-called partner to die, then pick up the remains cheap
Because the alternative is even riskier? SAIC can't build the cars they now own the rights to because they don't have the tools. If someone else buys them they're buggered.
thanuk said:
why would a company take the risks of a partnership when it could wait for its so-called partner to die, then pick up the remains cheap
Because the alternative is even riskier? SAIC can't build the cars they now own the rights to because they don't have the tools. If someone else buys them they're buggered.
they can retool far cheaper than if they had to design a model from scratch... and then make tools
what a load of emotional, immature nonsense!
SAIC didn't take the company down- simple economics and a long history of mismanagement did.
If they want to buy some assets, and move production out to Shanghai then so be it.
The alternative is to sell to the scrapman.
Which option puts more in the coffers to pay MG's creditors?
SAIC didn't take the company down- simple economics and a long history of mismanagement did.
If they want to buy some assets, and move production out to Shanghai then so be it.
The alternative is to sell to the scrapman.
Which option puts more in the coffers to pay MG's creditors?
Britain is supposedly the 4th richest country in the world and it no longer has its own mass produced car company. France is the 5th and does, why? because the French support their fellow workers and we just kick our workers in the teeth. Not like that with something as unimportant as football though are we when England plays. We wave our St Georges cross flags or Union Jack, if the fans are particularly ignorant, and then drive home in our German, French....cars.
>> Edited by cerbman on Wednesday 4th May 14:39
>> Edited by cerbman on Wednesday 4th May 14:39
There is a substantial tarrif on imported goods (cars in particular) into China (or India), yet we take their stuff tarrif free.
I believe in free trade. The situation we are in currently is anything but and causing serious damage to our industries.
But of course the main problem is in the Chinese currency being linked to the Dollar rather than floating. The rate was fixed many years ago, China has moved on but the currency hasn't.
I believe in free trade. The situation we are in currently is anything but and causing serious damage to our industries.
But of course the main problem is in the Chinese currency being linked to the Dollar rather than floating. The rate was fixed many years ago, China has moved on but the currency hasn't.
I agree totally with the sentiments of this story. In my own industry (Chemicals) the Chinese are masters of removing competition by selling cheap so European manf's cannot compete and when there is no competition guess what happens! HM goverment unfortunately will do nothing as they have forgotten the uk manufacturing industry and engineering is a dirty word.
If the MGR cars weren't so poor then they may get somewhere, They're not big in the European or US market. The 75 is a good car and the MG hothatch range and saloons are good, but are only as good as what they should have been when they first came out.
A serious lack of guts by the management. They should have worked harder. If you want something then go and get it. In this world today you can go far and Rover has the potential to do it.
They just didn't want it enough. I would love to see them come back but they need to get out of the mess they are in atm. And THAT is not going to be easy
A serious lack of guts by the management. They should have worked harder. If you want something then go and get it. In this world today you can go far and Rover has the potential to do it.
They just didn't want it enough. I would love to see them come back but they need to get out of the mess they are in atm. And THAT is not going to be easy
Longbridge is an assembly plant. Assembly. Pure and simple. Maybe, people do not understand what that means. It means all the high end intellectual rights, the real value has already been aquired -or so we are led to believe.
The assets left behind at Longbridge just may be used if you already have those rights to 'build to print'an existing design.
Nobody else in the world is really going to be interested in purchasing existing , used lines.
I am very sorry to have to say this but all these people demonstrating are just wasting their time.
If Rover is to be saved from the ashes, it will so in an entirely different form and sorry, but Longbridge has been consigned to the srap heap and soon to become a housing estate.....or somethig else the country really needs more of...(i don't think)
Ahead of tomorrow's election, it may occur to some of you just how little engineering this country has left , just think about what we actually produce now..and export in trade. The answer is just about nothing.
The assets left behind at Longbridge just may be used if you already have those rights to 'build to print'an existing design.
Nobody else in the world is really going to be interested in purchasing existing , used lines.
I am very sorry to have to say this but all these people demonstrating are just wasting their time.
If Rover is to be saved from the ashes, it will so in an entirely different form and sorry, but Longbridge has been consigned to the srap heap and soon to become a housing estate.....or somethig else the country really needs more of...(i don't think)
Ahead of tomorrow's election, it may occur to some of you just how little engineering this country has left , just think about what we actually produce now..and export in trade. The answer is just about nothing.
I will not support any government action to reprise the failed company that was Rover/MG.
I did not support Rover when they were trading since they did not have a product that was competative or appealing in any way. So why should tax payers money be wasted on such a failed and miserable mess?
I don't understand the argument that because we are the nth largest economy in the world we should have a major car manufacturer. Surely our economy can only be better without Rover around since money isn't be thrown into an ever deepening hole of debt?
Don't blame the chinese for making some savvy business moves, they just took advantage of the stupidity that was the Rover/MG management. Good luck to them!!
I did not support Rover when they were trading since they did not have a product that was competative or appealing in any way. So why should tax payers money be wasted on such a failed and miserable mess?
I don't understand the argument that because we are the nth largest economy in the world we should have a major car manufacturer. Surely our economy can only be better without Rover around since money isn't be thrown into an ever deepening hole of debt?
Don't blame the chinese for making some savvy business moves, they just took advantage of the stupidity that was the Rover/MG management. Good luck to them!!
cerbman said:
Britain is supposedly the 4th richest country in the world and it no longer has its own mass produced car company. France is the 5th and does, why? because the French support their fellow workers and we just kick our workers in the teeth. Not like that with something as unimportant as football though are we when England plays. We wave our St Georges cross flags or Union Jack, if the fans are particularly ignorant, and then drive home in our German, French....cars.
>> Edited by cerbman on Wednesday 4th May 14:39
French workers do indeed support other French workers. And what is the net result? Prolonged economic stagnation and extremely high unemployment. It's not a socialist utopia, it's a country controlled by self-interest groups and there is nothing great about that. It's all fine and dandy if you have a job, but you're buggered if you're unemployed. It's dressed up as patriotic job protection, but it is nothing of the sort. It protects one group within society and sinks the chances of another. It is immoral.
Uneconomic companies must be allowed to go bust. It doesn't make sense to burden genuinely productive workers and companies with a tax bill to prop up those who can't pull their own weight. All you do is drag every one's net productivity down and that damages the entire economy. (Subsidies and tarrifs increase the tax burden and artificially increase the price of goods, and therefore similarly undermine the economy as a whole.)
There is only one way of "guaranteeing" people a job, and that is to have a healthy economy that creates jobs. Bugger up your economy and you remove the only safety net you've got. Artificial job protection is entirely counter-productive.
ATG said:
French workers do indeed support other French workers. And what is the net result? Prolonged economic stagnation and extremely high unemployment. It's not a socialist utopia, it's a country controlled by self-interest groups and there is nothing great about that. It's all fine and dandy if you have a job, but you're buggered if you're unemployed. It's dressed up as patriotic job protection, but it is nothing of the sort. It protects one group within society and sinks the chances of another. It is immoral.
Uneconomic companies must be allowed to go bust. It doesn't make sense to burden genuinely productive workers and companies with a tax bill to prop up those who can't pull their own weight. All you do is drag every one's net productivity down and that damages the entire economy. (Subsidies and tarrifs increase the tax burden and artificially increase the price of goods, and therefore similarly undermine the economy as a whole.)
There is only one way of "guaranteeing" people a job, and that is to have a healthy economy that creates jobs. Bugger up your economy and you remove the only safety net you've got. Artificial job protection is entirely counter-productive.
For industries with low barriers of entry i.e. ones that cost little to set up (an extreme example being .com companies) i would totally agree with you -'survival of the fittest' would ensure that the most productive companies would flourish. But the automotive industry is quite the opposite - it costs billions to design & produce a new car.
Very few people & governments can afford (or have the will) to start up a new car company, and once you lose the engineering skills and supply companies, it will be very hard to find them in the future.
Imagine if the French government hadn't bailed out Renault in the 1970s (similar if not worse industrial problems than BL). In 1984 their CEO attempted a layoff plan but was fired by the government (the next CEO in 1985 tried a similar tactic but was 'wacked' by a terrorist
) The govt instead subsidised the huge losses for most of the 80s/90s during which it was nursed back into profitability through partial privatisation. And of course, Renault then went to buy 44% of Nissan who were building up huge losses throughout the 90s.
Note, both the French and Japanese governments were partners in the restructuring process. No real surprise then that they still have car companies.
Anyway, just to add another point of view in favour of government 'assistance'.
Quite a few good points have been raised here, but everyone is overlooking one fundamental, essential fact: worldwide, there is a (roughly) 600% over-capacity in car production infrastructure.
This means that during the next decade or so, about five-sixths of the existing automotive suppliers and manufacturing plants ARE GOING to close, or (in rare cases) be put to new uses. This is just reality, and neither demonstrations nor governmental intervention is going to change it. Longbridge could be kept going indefinitely, with enough propping-up, but to what end? There just isn't going to be anyone to buy their product.
If Britian's (or any other) government is serious about helping its working-class population, then it needs to re-train its workers for jobs that are actually needed. I wish there was some 'magic bullet' for this problem, but reality is frequently uncooperative...
This means that during the next decade or so, about five-sixths of the existing automotive suppliers and manufacturing plants ARE GOING to close, or (in rare cases) be put to new uses. This is just reality, and neither demonstrations nor governmental intervention is going to change it. Longbridge could be kept going indefinitely, with enough propping-up, but to what end? There just isn't going to be anyone to buy their product.
If Britian's (or any other) government is serious about helping its working-class population, then it needs to re-train its workers for jobs that are actually needed. I wish there was some 'magic bullet' for this problem, but reality is frequently uncooperative...
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