MGB Suspension Mods
Discussion
I am planning to purchase an early MGB roadster (pre 1966) to use as a road (not everyday) and hillclimb car for the Classic Hillclimb Championship. The first thing I was planning on doing, other than the safety bits rollover bar etc., was to modify the suspension and the brakes. I appreciate that the dual use of the car will mean that the mods are a compromise but do you have any suggestions as to what I might do. Thanks in advance for any help.
boy said:
I think as a first pass you ought to read and understand the regs for your championship since there's no point building something that's either not competive or not to the regs.
As above, do read the reg's first. Once the level of permissible mods are known you can then plan your suspension re-design. Some reg's will allow changeover to coil overs with five bar links et al, others will insist of FIA period mods only. If you're lucky you may be able to install Hoyle Suspension front and rear.Most standard suppliers [MOSS, MGOC, B&G et al] offer an upgrade path. The important thing with a B's suspension set up is attention to detail. A B' can be made to handle very, very well even with lever arms but it's knowing how to set up the car that's key.
Once you know the reg's within your class I suggest you take a look at the Hoyle Suspension system http://www.hoyle-suspension.co.uk/ and also John Wilson at JWRacing http://johnwilsonracing.com/engineering/
Logically, your car will need to be 100% structurally sound before the mods begin and in may cases it's best to weld additional structural support plates to/around existing suspension mounting points. Come back with any Q?'s.
v8250 said:
As above, do read the reg's first. Once the level of permissible mods are known you can then plan your suspension re-design. Some reg's will allow changeover to coil overs with five bar links et al, others will insist of FIA period mods only. If you're lucky you may be able to install Hoyle Suspension front and rear.
Most standard suppliers [MOSS, MGOC, B&G et al] offer an upgrade path. The important thing with a B's suspension set up is attention to detail. A B' can be made to handle very, very well even with lever arms but it's knowing how to set up the car that's key.
Once you know the reg's within your class I suggest you take a look at the Hoyle Suspension system http://www.hoyle-suspension.co.uk/ and also John Wilson at JWRacing http://johnwilsonracing.com/engineering/
Logically, your car will need to be 100% structurally sound before the mods begin and in may cases it's best to weld additional structural support plates to/around existing suspension mounting points. Come back with any Q?'s.
Some nice stuff on those web sites. thankfully for my bank account I cant use any of that on the FIA car i'm building, although adjustable armstrong lever arms are an arm and a leg.Most standard suppliers [MOSS, MGOC, B&G et al] offer an upgrade path. The important thing with a B's suspension set up is attention to detail. A B' can be made to handle very, very well even with lever arms but it's knowing how to set up the car that's key.
Once you know the reg's within your class I suggest you take a look at the Hoyle Suspension system http://www.hoyle-suspension.co.uk/ and also John Wilson at JWRacing http://johnwilsonracing.com/engineering/
Logically, your car will need to be 100% structurally sound before the mods begin and in may cases it's best to weld additional structural support plates to/around existing suspension mounting points. Come back with any Q?'s.
Thanks for the feedback so far. For the hillclimb championship I can modify the car as much as I wish, the only real stipulation is that it has to be pre 1972. The championship is run on a handicap system so in theory you could run a completely standard car and still win the championship. I have the current Moss catalogue and as you say there are a lot of off the shelf parts available, I guess the advice I'm looking for is what I might be best to start with bearing in mind that the car will be used on the road for fun/touring holidays as well.
simonriley11 said:
Thanks for the feedback so far. For the hillclimb championship I can modify the car as much as I wish, the only real stipulation is that it has to be pre 1972. The championship is run on a handicap system so in theory you could run a completely standard car and still win the championship. I have the current Moss catalogue and as you say there are a lot of off the shelf parts available, I guess the advice I'm looking for is what I might be best to start with bearing in mind that the car will be used on the road for fun/touring holidays as well.
Simon, I'd like to share with you my experience/perspective on MGB and suspension upgrades as a whole which I hope will help. Firstly, the majority of coil over type upgrades need to be viewed quite carefully as, simply, they do not work as well as the suppliers may 'claim'. This is because damper lengths are too short for the available length. They overheat and the car loses its suspension effectiveness quite quickly. Many historic racers and rally guys retain lever arm dampers but upgrade the oil, valve AND add a reservoir to each corner, this ensures effective volume and cooling of the hydraulic fluid. Lowering the car by 1-1.5" will transform the road holding, but the suspension redesign must be considered as a complete modification :. all bushes, ARB, dampers and springs. Camber, toe in/out are critical.I'm in the process of converting my B' to a V8. It's a mid-high specification project with circa' 250bhp, R380 'box, Hoyle Suspension and Cosworth Visous LSD. Though this has little bearing to your new MGB I want to emphasize the easiest way to make any car go faster is to really sort out the suspension and brakes. I designed my specification as a whole car package and did a lot of research into the various suspension options. I ignored the halfway-house options knowing I wanted an IRS with fully adjustable ride height, camber and damper settings. The reason being I wanted a fast road car that could be rallied and tracked, and taken on long distance tours/holidays; so, a real all rounder. Now, most nay-sayers will state one suspension system can not provide all of this...well, they're wrong. Having a fully adjustable system enables soft-medium and hard settings to be set...all in the comfort of your garage at home.
This design left me with three options 1. Hoyle Suspension front and rear, 2. Hoyle IRS rear and an RV8 front, 3. Jaguar IRS and RV8 front. There are some other U.S. options e.g. from FastCars but why import when we've got a very capable system here in the UK? I have a lot of experience with Jaguar's IRS back-end...it's super tough but bloody heavy, the inboard brakes are a pain to deal with and there's too much unsprung weight. The John Hoyle system is very well thought through...particularly the location and cage design. At the front it would have made no sense opting for the RV8 option. It's less effective and more expensive than the Hoyle front end. So, for me, the decision was easy.
For your application requirement you can not go wrong with the Hoyle system. The only downside is price, "it's not cheap!", but will give you everything you need. There are many, many UK, European and US race/rally/sprint cars running John's suspension...and a fair few of these are both class and outright Champions; not wanting to set your expectation to high here
Now, should your initial budget not go this far, contact MGOC or MGCC Motorsports guys and ask if there's a club member in your area who has a front running car. Ask if they can put you in contact with the owner and see if you can arrange a drive before buying any upgrades. The MG club members are a very friendly bunch of people and always willing to help newcomers. Good luck.
Not entirely answering the question, I would say if you are buying a pre '66 car do nothing to it other than FIA Historic mods, as pre'66 cars are rare and pukka FIA MGB's can be very valuable, anywhere upto £40k-£50k for a well sorted one.
If you want to go none FIA I would suggest buying a '67 - 72 car as I would imagine they are cheaper to buy in the first place as they are not eligable for FIA stuff
If you want to go none FIA I would suggest buying a '67 - 72 car as I would imagine they are cheaper to buy in the first place as they are not eligable for FIA stuff
I guess its a case of how fast you can afford to go if your'e allowed free rein on the suspension. Hoyle modern suspension costs a fortune to buy but I don't doubt you could build a brilliant handling car but at what cost compared to keeping it relatively standard with - negative camber bottom arms, stiffer front springs, anti roll bar and uprated armstrong damper with parabolics on the back and lever arms.... adjustable if you can afford or get them them. This is what i would call period tuning and its all i'm allowed on my FIA car. Its worth while having the car corner weighted and set up it does make a difference. How does having standard suspension alter the handicap in your series, I'm not sure how it works I'm a circuit racer not a hill climb/sprinter.
As an aside most early pull handle type cars had wire wheels, steel wheel banjo axles for the early cars are pretty thin on the ground but are lighter than the tube type and thus preferred on a race car although the half shafts have been known to break so you'll need the uprated ones. Wires are heavy and flex so you'll need alloys,the knock on type are the heaviest of the lot so avoid. You'll need an LSD which is circa £950 and what diff ratio will you run? I think most sprinters tend to run a very short diff which isn't going to be great for touring, many other BMC cars used that axle and there are a few odd ball raios to choose from if you dont want to buy a new crown wheel pinion. Also Overdrive on a racer you'll not use it and so its extra weight you dont need, many people swap for a 3 syncro non O/D box. The ratios aren't great in these boxes and most racers put a straight cut gear set in, these arent cheap 1500 quid from memory.
Next mine field, have you thought about the engine? What are you allowed to run if its free then a std B wont pull much of a skin from a rice pudding especially going up hill so you'll need to get in touch with Peter Burgess or at least buy his book on tuning the B series - best 20 quid you'll spend. Basically you'll need, and its a proven route by many racers - a big valve head by Mr B, as much compression as you can squeeze out of it, about 11.6 :1, a 300 deg cam and a 48 DCOE if your allowed (moot point in FIA racing as many cars run 48's with a 45 lid on top ; allegedly) ). Depending on how flush you're feeling at this point sprinkle with forged pistons (JE or omega), arrow rods, steel crank, billet alloy flywheel & race clutch, these wont help you make more power but will help the engine spin up quicker as they are lighter which will help acceleration (sprints and hill climbs are all about acceleration). Capacity is the next question I'm only allowed 1840 cc but you can stretch them a lot more, larger capacity engines have had a reputation for oil consumption due to bore flex.
This could be a much cheaper way into it, admittedly it needs some tidying and its a later car, but at 5500 I could spend more than that on the engine alone without even trying.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MGB-Roadster-A-Class-Rac...
As an aside most early pull handle type cars had wire wheels, steel wheel banjo axles for the early cars are pretty thin on the ground but are lighter than the tube type and thus preferred on a race car although the half shafts have been known to break so you'll need the uprated ones. Wires are heavy and flex so you'll need alloys,the knock on type are the heaviest of the lot so avoid. You'll need an LSD which is circa £950 and what diff ratio will you run? I think most sprinters tend to run a very short diff which isn't going to be great for touring, many other BMC cars used that axle and there are a few odd ball raios to choose from if you dont want to buy a new crown wheel pinion. Also Overdrive on a racer you'll not use it and so its extra weight you dont need, many people swap for a 3 syncro non O/D box. The ratios aren't great in these boxes and most racers put a straight cut gear set in, these arent cheap 1500 quid from memory.
Next mine field, have you thought about the engine? What are you allowed to run if its free then a std B wont pull much of a skin from a rice pudding especially going up hill so you'll need to get in touch with Peter Burgess or at least buy his book on tuning the B series - best 20 quid you'll spend. Basically you'll need, and its a proven route by many racers - a big valve head by Mr B, as much compression as you can squeeze out of it, about 11.6 :1, a 300 deg cam and a 48 DCOE if your allowed (moot point in FIA racing as many cars run 48's with a 45 lid on top ; allegedly) ). Depending on how flush you're feeling at this point sprinkle with forged pistons (JE or omega), arrow rods, steel crank, billet alloy flywheel & race clutch, these wont help you make more power but will help the engine spin up quicker as they are lighter which will help acceleration (sprints and hill climbs are all about acceleration). Capacity is the next question I'm only allowed 1840 cc but you can stretch them a lot more, larger capacity engines have had a reputation for oil consumption due to bore flex.
This could be a much cheaper way into it, admittedly it needs some tidying and its a later car, but at 5500 I could spend more than that on the engine alone without even trying.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MGB-Roadster-A-Class-Rac...
Or even better, this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MGB-GT-with-1950cc-Super...
1950cc supercharged engine with 150bhp AND Hoyle front suspension and Frontline 5-bar link rear!! Car needs less tidying, give this a thorough servicing, sort the small paint areas, change the overdrive unit [supplied], re-shim the differential correctly and it's ready to go for £5495.
Simon, you're in Wiltshire, this car's in Wokingham...take a run up the M4 and view this car now!
1950cc supercharged engine with 150bhp AND Hoyle front suspension and Frontline 5-bar link rear!! Car needs less tidying, give this a thorough servicing, sort the small paint areas, change the overdrive unit [supplied], re-shim the differential correctly and it's ready to go for £5495.
Simon, you're in Wiltshire, this car's in Wokingham...take a run up the M4 and view this car now!
v8250 said:
Or even better, this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MGB-GT-with-1950cc-Super...
1950cc supercharged engine with 150bhp AND Hoyle front suspension and Frontline 5-bar link rear!! Car needs less tidying, give this a thorough servicing, sort the small paint areas, change the overdrive unit [supplied], re-shim the differential correctly and it's ready to go for £5495.
Simon, you're in Wiltshire, this car's in Wokingham...take a run up the M4 and view this car now!
Depends on what forced induction does to his race class I guess, often it lumps you in with the big boys1950cc supercharged engine with 150bhp AND Hoyle front suspension and Frontline 5-bar link rear!! Car needs less tidying, give this a thorough servicing, sort the small paint areas, change the overdrive unit [supplied], re-shim the differential correctly and it's ready to go for £5495.
Simon, you're in Wiltshire, this car's in Wokingham...take a run up the M4 and view this car now!
boy said:
Depends on what forced induction does to his race class I guess, often it lumps you in with the big boys
Very true, but...one could easily remove the supercharger, pop on a set of SU's and still have a 1950cc car with all the suspension gizmo's and still ready to go. These supercharger kits are very easy to install/remove.Simon, if you've read the replies, have you viewed the car yet?
v8250 said:
boy said:
Depends on what forced induction does to his race class I guess, often it lumps you in with the big boys
Very true, but...one could easily remove the supercharger, pop on a set of SU's and still have a 1950cc car with all the suspension gizmo's and still ready to go. These supercharger kits are very easy to install/remove.Simon, if you've read the replies, have you viewed the car yet?
boy said:
v8250 said:
boy said:
Depends on what forced induction does to his race class I guess, often it lumps you in with the big boys
Very true, but...one could easily remove the supercharger, pop on a set of SU's and still have a 1950cc car with all the suspension gizmo's and still ready to go. These supercharger kits are very easy to install/remove.Simon, if you've read the replies, have you viewed the car yet?
v8250 said:
boy said:
v8250 said:
boy said:
Depends on what forced induction does to his race class I guess, often it lumps you in with the big boys
Very true, but...one could easily remove the supercharger, pop on a set of SU's and still have a 1950cc car with all the suspension gizmo's and still ready to go. These supercharger kits are very easy to install/remove.Simon, if you've read the replies, have you viewed the car yet?
I would buy an already prepared FIA car and enjoy the flexibility of running in multiple races, sprints and events.
Look at it as a usable investment and spread the purchase cost over a number of years. A modsports car will cost a lot to develop and will not return much when it comes to be sold.
Finding a solid narrow tunnel car will be hard and could cost a lot more than you think to make serviceable and eventually successful.
Avoid the 3 sync.
Look at it as a usable investment and spread the purchase cost over a number of years. A modsports car will cost a lot to develop and will not return much when it comes to be sold.
Finding a solid narrow tunnel car will be hard and could cost a lot more than you think to make serviceable and eventually successful.
Avoid the 3 sync.
Dear all, many thanks again for all the assistance. Firstly I won't be buying a car until I have sold my Porsche to my friend, hopefully in the next week or so. I have my mind set on a pre 1966 car as it would be FIA eligible if in future I decided to go historic racing. Now having read your replies then regarding suspension mods it makes sense to modify as much as possible within the FIA regulations still bearing in mind that at first I'm only doing hillclimbing and it needs to be a useable road car. Are there any more suggestions of what to modify and also perhaps what to avoid? Thanks
Simon, talk to Doug Smith at MG Motorsport http://www.mgmotorsport.com/default.htm
He'll advise you...but leave your wallet at home
He'll advise you...but leave your wallet at home
simonriley11 said:
Dear all, many thanks again for all the assistance. Firstly I won't be buying a car until I have sold my Porsche to my friend, hopefully in the next week or so. I have my mind set on a pre 1966 car as it would be FIA eligible if in future I decided to go historic racing. Now having read your replies then regarding suspension mods it makes sense to modify as much as possible within the FIA regulations still bearing in mind that at first I'm only doing hillclimbing and it needs to be a useable road car. Are there any more suggestions of what to modify and also perhaps what to avoid? Thanks
OK as I said earlier strictly speaking on an FIA car you cant do a great deal and you have to work with what the factory had which limits you to Front suspension - negative camber wishbone arms, shorter stiffer springs, thinker anti roll bar with solid mounts. front uprated lever arms
Rear - banjo steel wheel axle, adjustable armstrong shocks, parabolic springs.
Thats your lot, so no anti tramp bars, 5 link axles, panhard rods no telescopic shocks, I dont think you're even allowed to have rod ends on the shocker and roll bar drop links.
Are you planning on getting HTP papers on this?
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