Our MG Midget

Our MG Midget

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jamieduff1981

Original Poster:

8,040 posts

146 months

Sunday 7th July 2013
quotequote all
Hello folks,

This is my first post in here, but I've used other areas on Pistonheads for a little while now.

A few months ago, my wife was on a curry night or something similar with some of the mums she knows through a nursery she helps to run. There she was speaking to a lady who happened to mention that she needed to sell a red MG, and my wife happened to mention this the following day to me.

There was a messy story involving a runaway husband behind it all, but the long and the short of it was that this lady was now divorced and on her own, with a 1972 round arch Midget and missing history sat in her garage. She had obtained a new V5c but that's it. Everything else had gone with the ex-husband.

I had a look at the car and whilst far from perfect it seemed solid enough and looked presentable. They had paid a lot of money for it around 4 years ago, but it had sat idle for the last 3 years. She was happy to accept a 3 figure sum in the region of the magazine price guides for Cat 3 cars as it was non-running and had no history.



Our 3 year old thought it was her car - bless her


Anyway... We knew it needed a small spot of welding by one of the seatbelt anchor points, but in general it was a lot better than a rotter of a MkIV Spitfire I used to have. We set about seeing whether it would run. We changed all the fluids and filters, and fitted new spark plugs and a new battery but it wasn't interested.
The first diagnosis was a dead fuel pump and gummed up carburretors. The fuel pump was removed and fixed, and my wife got herself an SU manual and stripped and rebuilt her first pair of carbs on the kitchen table.



We established thereafter that we were getting fuel but no spark. I'm pretty hazy on fault finding on old cars so I followed the Haynes manual flow charts and arrived at a dead coil. This was replaced but still no spark, but this time the flow chart pointed to a failed capacitor in the distributor. I ordered a new one and stripped the carpets and seats out to see what welding was needed. It's not too bad really, but I killed my ancient MIG welder and needed to make up a power cable for my eBay special 3-in-1 TIG/Arc/Plasma cutter.

Last night after a bit of a break due to various commitments, I fitted the new capacitor and stuffed the distributor back in it's hole. A generous crank on the starter still resulted in nothing, until I remembered to pull some choke on, and it fired straight up in the garage. No wanting to poison myself, I switched it off and told my wife that I'd accidently started the engine without her.

We had to clear some crap out of the way to get the car outside to run it in the driveway. It's good to see that the clutch works along with both 1st gear and reverse!

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=1015170269605...

The engine became extremely smokey as it warmed up though - a thick lingering oily smoke. It looks like I have a cylinder head to remove...



Edited by jamieduff1981 on Sunday 7th July 12:30

Yatesy350i

983 posts

142 months

Sunday 7th July 2013
quotequote all
Nice one James

God I wish my Wife was as keen as yours. If I had the carbs in the kitchen ther would be hell to pay, let alone wifey actually doing the work.

Hope you have more luck with your car than I have.

Loads of advice on hear up for grabs.

ATB Karl

jamieduff1981

Original Poster:

8,040 posts

146 months

Sunday 7th July 2013
quotequote all
Thank you Karl. My wife is great and luckily we have similar tastes in cars. I see from your profile that we're both TVR owners too smile

I've ordered one of David Vizard's books today, figuring that if I'm stripping the engine anyway I may as well fettle a few things to make an opportunity out of the necessity!

nta16

7,898 posts

240 months

Sunday 7th July 2013
quotequote all
hi, welcome,
don't rely on the Haynes to always be accurate, better to have a copy of the Driver's Handbook - this is not the workshop manual but what you would have got when the car was new, it will tell you all about your how to operate your car (like how to stow the hood properly so it doesn't get damaged) and its regular servicing schedule and how to do the work

I'll boil my usual (too long) advice down to -
. buy the Driver's Handbook and read it and refer to it as required
. carry out a full 36k-mile service/check up ASAP+ - staggered between driving is best
. drive the car frequently to iron out the wrinkles as soon as possible
. regularly drive the car reasonable distances throughout the whole year
. carry out full and proper regular servicing, maintenance and repairs
. regularly drive the car reasonable distances throughout the whole year (repeated as a big hint)
. bear in mind some modern made parts are poor quality or faulty+
. loads of info on here just do a PH Search

Driver's Handbook (Ref: 0057) - http://www.mgocshop.co.uk/catalog/Online_Catalogue...

+ PM me if you want more info

jamieduff1981

Original Poster:

8,040 posts

146 months

Sunday 7th July 2013
quotequote all
Hi Nigel and thank you for the tips.

We've already obtained a copy of the handbook, and a good thing too!

Once this smoke is diagnosed and corrected I'll give it a good look over then take it for an MOT and see what happens.

Are the gearboxes (gear selection specifically) crap on all of these or is ours likely to be worn out? The odometer is showing just over 81k and the gearstick is rather vague feeling. Having said that I'm comparing it to a rather thugish feeling recently rebuilt Borg Warner T5 so perhaps it only needs some getting used to?

nta16

7,898 posts

240 months

Sunday 7th July 2013
quotequote all
jamieduff1981 said:
Hi Nigel and thank you for the tips.
no problem


jamieduff1981 said:
We've already obtained a copy of the handbook, and a good thing too!
great don't forget to read it and refer to it, I've seen lots of incorrect info given to someone like you asking a question when the accurate answer is in the DH but some people believe you should only learn by experience ! ?


jamieduff1981 said:
Are the gearboxes (gear selection specifically) crap on all of these or is ours likely to be worn out?
if the gearbox is in good condition the changes are very sweet like the steering a more pleasant gear change and steering would be hard to find

your problem is that unless you've recently driven a Spridget in good mechanical condition that's driven regularly then you wont know how good anything on or about the car could or should be

poor gear selection could be anything from worn or missing anti-rattle kit, g/box oil at low level or not renewed, clutch or hydraulics to yes the box is worn - no sychro on first bear in mind


jamieduff1981 said:
The odometer is showing just over 81k
that means less than a politician's promise, it's just a meaningless number now like a politician expenses claim


jamieduff1981 said:
and the gearstick is rather vague feeling.
no way should it be vague see above, could just need an anti-rattle kit to it's worn to somebody's bodged or b*ggered it up

the three years lack of use apart from any period of inactivity not doing the car any favours could also be for a reason - with lack of history assume the worse to start with, get that 36k-mile service/check up done ASAP plus a few other points you'll find in my previous posts or PM me

jamieduff1981

Original Poster:

8,040 posts

146 months

Saturday 10th August 2013
quotequote all
I've had rather a bad run with cars.

Anyway, today we warmed up the rather smokey Midget for a compression test. The 4 cylinders were pretty decent actually, but the plugs from 1 & 2 were soaked in oil whereas 3 & 4 were clean. These are new plugs with less than 40 minutes running time.

We removed the head suspecting valve guides / stem seals.





Once the head was removed, the piston domes were pretty full of oil. I turned the engine over a few revolutions and the bores look alright for now, so I decided to leave the bottom end intact for now. It's been very expensive recently with cars - including a knackered transfer 'box on our X-Type I've yet to fix so I want to limit expense on this until I get it on the road and see what else is wrong with it. At the same time, whilst the head is off it seems pointless to spend time and money on valve sizes I don't want. I've no service history but did find a bottle of Redex lead replacement stuff in the boot suggesting it doesn't have hardened valve seats, and upon closer inspection it definately doesn't have inserts.












So, anyway, I seem to recall seeing David Vizard on Pistonheads? If you're reading David, I have your book "Tuning BL's A-Series Engine" here in front of me courtesy of Amazon. I think I have the 1987 onwards edition with a dark blue dust cover and a red 1380cc Mini engine with Weber 45 on the front and a power & torque curve on the back. I'm not much of a pioneer to be honest and I think I'd pretty much like to just copy that engine more or less since the torque curve looks really useable for a road engine and the power is impressive to. I'll build a bottom end to match in due course but I'd like to make the head mods and fit 1.4" / 1.25" Rimflo valves with hardened seats and do porting and combustion chamber modifications according to the details inside the book. I gather Bill Quine whom the book says modified 'that' head retired.

Having browsed online though, I can only find packages where companies will do some unspecified head work, fit hardened seats and fit valves I don't want. Is there anyone still in business that will do the work to your specs? Failing that, I'd be happy to buy a naff head from Ebay for practise and then do the mods myself but I have no facilities for doing the valve seats - either opening them out or fitting inserts for unleaded. Any recommendations for this route?

The head casting is a normal 12G940. I haven't yet finished reading your book fully but I understand the valve sizes mentioned will fit? It really doesn't look like I've have anything left between the valves if I did this. Do I need offset guides for this?

nta16

7,898 posts

240 months

Saturday 10th August 2013
quotequote all
I'm a bit lost about being on a budget then wanting to soup the engine up but for head work with honest advice you want to contact Peter Burgess - http://www.mgcars.org.uk/peterburgess/

don't expect a flash web site or instant replies but Peter is sometimes on here and MG BBS

he does an excellent value RR tune-up too but that's for much later

I've never read the David Vizard book so may have this totally wrong and if so I apologise, I do remember reading that someone (I thought David Vizard but could be wrong) wrote the book but most of the work was done by (3?) others(?)

Daniel Stapleton is often on the MG BBS - http://www2.mgcars.org.uk/cgi-bin/gen5?runprog=mgb...

HTH

jamieduff1981

Original Poster:

8,040 posts

146 months

Saturday 10th August 2013
quotequote all
My apparent budget is a little of a contradiction I realise. I will eventually get my wallet out and can finance whatever I fancy doing with this. In the very short term though, and with a few thousand spent over the past couple of months and more to come on cars and £££'s more on a kitchen just fitted last week I want to just do the head work for now and I'll worry about the bottom end next year. I expect to have to change 'other stuff' too on the car to get it on the road, fregsample it had a flat front tyre for a long time and the leaf springs at the rear have adopted that shape so it's sitting lopsided - I'll get new springs etc.

I just don't want to spend another few thousand right at the moment building a fast road A-series, but it does seem pointless changing the valve guides and lapping OE valves back in to the head because I'm also lazy and don't really want to rebuild the head twice! I could just wait but I want to get this car on the road so I thought I'll sort out these leaky guides and get the head how I want it, then the rest can get done later and I'll have a sorted head to fit.

In short I'll be doing this right and once the Jags and TVR slow down the rate at which they're draining my bank account the Midget will get some proper attention. I hope that clarifies my contradictory opening a bit? smile

Thanks for the contact though, I'll get in touch

Steffan

10,362 posts

234 months

Saturday 10th August 2013
quotequote all
I enjoyed the A series in bits photos takes me back 50 years to my first A series rebuild as a lad observing the mechanics repairing my fathers Morris Minor. He was a Parson with permanent impecunity in consequence but the mechanics charged him next to nothing for the repairs just for the head gasket from distant memory.

I have just acquired an MG Midget which is a real conundrum its been fitted with a full flip front frogeye bonnet etc and looks like a frogeye sprite. Has the 1500 triumph engine which is running OK and once I get the daft restrictions off the carbs on these cars it should run OK. Rubber bumpers have gone and just overiders for protection which looks good and saves weight the rubber bumpers are damned heavy. Wire wheels and excellent leather seats and good interior and MOT'd till 2014 it should be FUN.

You could probably try getting away with regrinding the valves with new oil seals as well. Springs may be tired. I find that the various additives do stop seat burning if used regularly and you could try this as a stopgap. The A series is so easy to repair in time when funds permit. I do hope all goes well and you both enjoy the car!

nta16

7,898 posts

240 months

Sunday 11th August 2013
quotequote all
Peter will give you good advice and not rip you off and heads are one of his specialities

er, when things settle a little would you like to sponsor my Midget as we have enough trouble keeping one non-modern car biggrin

before you buy any parts or components you'd be wise to post here as many parts can be abysmal and I've a list of some and can also recommend suppliers of some good quality parts and so can others

I'd certainly leave head parts to Peter from some things I've heard

obviously if you uprated one part then you may need to alter or uprate other parts and components to balance things out

the quality of standard rear road springs seems to be OK at the moment

if you want road uprated springs or exhaust (and other stuff) contact Kim Dear at Magic Midget as he's another very decent guy and his uprated parts are not expensive - http://magicmidget.co.uk/

for tyres (for road use) as the Yokohama a.drives are no longer available I don't know what to recommend but I can tell you to avoid Toyo 350 as that what I replaced the Yoko a.drives with (the 350 aren't bad tyres they're just not good)

jamieduff1981

Original Poster:

8,040 posts

146 months

Sunday 11th August 2013
quotequote all
Thank you very much for your time. I'll contact Peter this week and see about sending the head away to him for rework.

I'll also post my intended spec up later on after I've restocked on degreaser and other household stuff from Costco and picked up the TVR exhaust from Dundee smile

perdu

4,884 posts

205 months

Wednesday 14th August 2013
quotequote all
Jamie, not much to add to what Nigel has said, but the rear springs, I would just swap them over from offside to t'other and see how the car looks and goes for a while

I have had several dodgy sets of springs over the years, one pair were bent in flats. Yes, no curve just a short flat section then an angled "bend" then another flat then another bend then another then another then...

This fiasco was on both springs, on every leaf.

For this reason I no longer buy Midget spares from a place in Oldbury, under the M5

I see Nigel has also put you onto my hero Peter Burgess, good move. I want Peter to look at my head when I lift it off the block in a few weeks, a skim and maybe a little flow work down the ports.

When you put the head back together I advise adding valve stem seals top all eight valve even though some dont think it a good idea, all the oil didn't get on top of the pistons by magic after all

G'luck mate, soon be enjoying the best little British sports car in all its glory smilethumbup

jamieduff1981

Original Poster:

8,040 posts

146 months

Wednesday 14th August 2013
quotequote all
I had an email back from Moss Europe today. I'd enquired as to exactly what was in their fast road head, and the chap suggested that if I had specific requirements I should contact Peter Burgess too smile

Thanks for the tip on the springs. I'll give that a try.

My valves only had stem seals on the inlets but I see most places sell them in packs of 8.

I'm really not convinced about getting the 1.44 and 1.25" valves in to the head. Looks like they'll almost touch? I need to speak to Peter Burgess, whom I'm sure will keep me right.

jamieduff1981

Original Poster:

8,040 posts

146 months

Friday 8th November 2013
quotequote all
This project stalled for a while due to one of the daily drivers wrecking its AWD transfer box, then developing a bottom end knock just after buying the brand new transfer box. A holiday got in the way too.

Nevertheless, I ordered £700 worth of nothing much this week (due for delivery today) which includes stuff to rebuild the cylinder head. I opted for standard valves in the end, reasoning that I'd rather start over with a second engine for a fast road build.

I finally got round to cleaning the head up and decoking last night, and it looks as though it will need a skim too owing the some pitting around the water ways on the sealing face. Still, for a 43 year old iron casting, it's in fairly good condition. It looks as though a previous owner tried running on unleaded too as the exhaust valve seats are stuffed. Hardened inserts are part of that parts order mentioned above.

perdu

4,884 posts

205 months

Friday 8th November 2013
quotequote all
Did you speak to Peter Burgess before you ordered the £700 worth of bits?

Anyway, it's good to see you are back in the saddle on this Midget

It looks a nice car ('specialy for a three figure motor)

Hope we see you about next summer.

If you need a drive it target, there is a London Bridges Run on the first Sunday of 2014, details on the MGEnthusiasts Midget and Sprite general bulletin board.

I expect to be popping down there from Brummagem that day, along with people from all over. Coma and join us maybe?

nta16

7,898 posts

240 months

Saturday 9th November 2013
quotequote all
I meant to put before how envious all here must be that you have a partner that gets her hands dirty under the bonnet and strips down carbs on the kitchen table thumbup

enough of the positive from me back to default doom and gloom

make sure you keep the carb dashpots and pistons matched to each other (see JT vid for check)

only just noticed there's an Accuspark coil not sure if it's a good thing if you have their cheaply made HT lead set and plugs too - 'performanceleads' for good quality and performance HT leads - http://www.performanceleads.co.uk/

in your £700 of nothing I hope it doesn't include too many modern made parts that are electrical, ignition or anything with rubber (and others) as some can be very poorly made

if you're sticking with a standard dissy (that were worn after 3 years from car leaving factory) and (shudder) CB points either clean the existing ones if they're very old or get them from the Distributor Doctor, same with condensers and for 'red rotor arms' - http://www.distributordoctor.com/

I'm happily on a fully electronic dissy so don't have to worry about those

other parts depends on what they are as to where you might get well made new or have to go for NOS or s/h

for coolant and heater hoses, Classic Silicone Hoses - http://www.classicsiliconehoses.com/

note - it's not all modern made parts that are abysmal but enough are - and don't rely on suppliers catalogues for absolute accuracy or to get the correct part stocked by them

if you've got the Driver's Handbook you'll see how to fold the hood so that there's less chance of cracking or splitting the windows on the hood during the colder weather well get later (if you've not already had it up there) rather than as in your previous photos wink

that's enough, I'm off to cheer up others

Edited by nta16 on Saturday 9th November 17:18

jamieduff1981

Original Poster:

8,040 posts

146 months

Sunday 10th November 2013
quotequote all
Hi Gents smile

Not to worry - I'm cheery enough!

I did speak to Peter Burgess via some email Tennis. He was very helpful and offered up specific information and advice which has influenced my direction, but I guess he was busy as he avoided the subject of me paying him to modify my cylinder head.

With that in mind, I decided to just get the car MOT'd and worry about a better engine later. I'd rather build a complete engine to a spec than do it in stages. When it's ready it can be swapped with the current.

Most of the £700 was a new oil pressure / water temp gauge, a few steel pressings for repairing the shell and some ancient car specific tools, such as grease guns etc which have no application on anything built in the past 2 decades which most of my previous cars have come from. There's new gaskets, new manifold and thermostat housing studs and similar too, plus ineria reel seatbelts. Nothing electronic or rubber in there!

That Accuspark coil was fitted by me as initial fault finding to get the car running. The leads are the same ones that were on it before - so given that all the history has been lost I have no idea where they came from. I'll admit to seeking out the cheapest coil I could find just to determine whether the thing would run. I'm no lover of distributor ignition and was going to go solid-state if I hadn't sorted it quickly - it needed a coil and a condensor.

Anyhoo - I've got the old guides pressed out:



The head has cleaned up pretty well but it will need perhaps 20-30 thou skimmed off the sealing face.



You can see the burned exhaust valve seats there too. Hardened inserts were part of the £700, along with new std sized inlet and exhaust valves.

I am blending the worst of the casting features out of the ports as per the diagrams in Vizard's book, but nothing more for now. I'll hopefully get this finished off next weekend then send the head off to a local machine shop to for a skim and to let in the hardened inserts and recut the seats. When I know how much comes off the head I'll recalculate the compression ratio and decide whether to stick with that or get a thicker head gasket.

Edited by jamieduff1981 on Sunday 10th November 19:54

nta16

7,898 posts

240 months

Sunday 10th November 2013
quotequote all
Peter's not one to push his business on anyone but is one to help where he can, perhaps he just thought you wanted advice

I think it's a good idea to get the car running and used as soon as possible, you'll want the car above the MoT standards, using the car will highlight how good or not all of the various systems, components and parts are or are not

yes body parts can be expensive and it seems of various quality but blimey you must have bought a hell of a grease gun smile

I wouldn't worry about the coil it's more likely the new condenser would be the one to give problems out of the two - but your condenser could well be fine anyway

you'll be glad to hear the engine engineering stuff leaves me cold, I only enjoy driving my car, I do the least messy stuff I can, which reminds me it's time I greased the front suspension again

enjoy, cheers

perdu

4,884 posts

205 months

Monday 11th November 2013
quotequote all
Nicely recessed seats there, good job you got the new ones for it..

And a good job you feel up to doing the replacements.

Looks like we'll see you out and about quite soon.

I had 20thou skimmed off my head recently, I think it's always a reasonable "start" before you go overboard.

Keep popping in, we'd like to keep up with you.


bill