Discussion
Hi all
Quick update for anyone who may be interested.
The clutch problems were down to the slave cylinder release pin/ot being badly worn. I've had the engine out over the past few day to replace the noisy gear box. It's all back together now but running like a bag of spanners.
It did develop this fault before I removed the engine some am fairly happy that it's not down to me? Anyway it seems to be running on afew less cylinders than it would like. If you remove HT lead one or two when running it makes no difference it still just sounds bad. Thre or four cause an instant stall. I've tried swapping leads around and it's still the same cylinders so not the leads. Oh it's had new plugs this morning. I have a spark at all four.
So I Am thinking fuel I've cleaned the carbs as best I could without replacing anything. It's not as bad as it was but still not anywhere near right.
I've ordered a carb service kit with new replacement jets for the waxstats. And just to be sure I've orderd new dizzy cap leads etc.
Prior to the fault it was runn g great then just sounded like a plug lead had come off and now here we are.
I've cleaned the fuel pump and fuel seems to be getting through ok.
Any other ideas please?
Cheers Karl.
Quick update for anyone who may be interested.
The clutch problems were down to the slave cylinder release pin/ot being badly worn. I've had the engine out over the past few day to replace the noisy gear box. It's all back together now but running like a bag of spanners.
It did develop this fault before I removed the engine some am fairly happy that it's not down to me? Anyway it seems to be running on afew less cylinders than it would like. If you remove HT lead one or two when running it makes no difference it still just sounds bad. Thre or four cause an instant stall. I've tried swapping leads around and it's still the same cylinders so not the leads. Oh it's had new plugs this morning. I have a spark at all four.
So I Am thinking fuel I've cleaned the carbs as best I could without replacing anything. It's not as bad as it was but still not anywhere near right.
I've ordered a carb service kit with new replacement jets for the waxstats. And just to be sure I've orderd new dizzy cap leads etc.
Prior to the fault it was runn g great then just sounded like a plug lead had come off and now here we are.
I've cleaned the fuel pump and fuel seems to be getting through ok.
Any other ideas please?
Cheers Karl.
In my experience it's usually electrical rather than carb related unless you've removed them. Air leak on one of the gaskets around the carb if so ? If not I'd be looking at dizzy cap and rotor arm first if you've ruled out leads. Spark may be there but weak. Compression check would rule out anything amiss internally ?
Edited by gifdy on Tuesday 21st May 11:14
So I was on track then, good
The misfire might be caused by the distributor spindle running off centre a bit which can make the points gap erratic
Even if you have the points set properly try opening the gap a few thou, so the condenser gets a little more time between discharges on any cam lobes that are running out of true Possibly too close on some lobes to allow spark build up correctly
I've also known condenser failures to cause this too, but as most after market condensers are made of 'cheaporubbishonium' these days I am kinda reluctant to suggest the old time cure
fit a new condenser and points
I am told that Intermotor branded condesnsers are more reliable than the ones in the little green boxes though and may be worth a punt.
In the old days I could have 'got the sack' for fitting Intermotor, how times change.
good luck
The misfire might be caused by the distributor spindle running off centre a bit which can make the points gap erratic
Even if you have the points set properly try opening the gap a few thou, so the condenser gets a little more time between discharges on any cam lobes that are running out of true Possibly too close on some lobes to allow spark build up correctly
I've also known condenser failures to cause this too, but as most after market condensers are made of 'cheaporubbishonium' these days I am kinda reluctant to suggest the old time cure
fit a new condenser and points
I am told that Intermotor branded condesnsers are more reliable than the ones in the little green boxes though and may be worth a punt.
In the old days I could have 'got the sack' for fitting Intermotor, how times change.
good luck
this engine and set up is more or less the same as your previous 8 Spitfires so just think back to what you'd have done on those
do a step by step diagnostic run through first on the electrics until all avenues are exhausted, then fuel, then engine
(did you also change to a good quality 'red' rotor arm?)
do a step by step diagnostic run through first on the electrics until all avenues are exhausted, then fuel, then engine
(did you also change to a good quality 'red' rotor arm?)
You have to be methodical when you chase down faults, some things I can't remember you mentioning below
1 mechanical - are the tappets correctly set valve springs not binding etcetera
2 electrical - check the resistance inside the coil (3ohms) connections to all the wiring at the ignition circuit must be clean and tight
3 fuel - check fuel pressure and flow, I cannot remember the quantities involved but the mechanical pump is supposed to be able to deliver a certain amount of petrol into a jar within a minute on cranking
Nigel may be able to remember the numbers for this
And the MGE BBS Midget and Sprite technical section is full of enthusiasts with lots of prior knowlege of these great cars
Pop in and ask them http://www2.mgcars.org.uk should reach them
1 mechanical - are the tappets correctly set valve springs not binding etcetera
2 electrical - check the resistance inside the coil (3ohms) connections to all the wiring at the ignition circuit must be clean and tight
3 fuel - check fuel pressure and flow, I cannot remember the quantities involved but the mechanical pump is supposed to be able to deliver a certain amount of petrol into a jar within a minute on cranking
Nigel may be able to remember the numbers for this
And the MGE BBS Midget and Sprite technical section is full of enthusiasts with lots of prior knowlege of these great cars
Pop in and ask them http://www2.mgcars.org.uk should reach them
very common story it seems
not that this is the case here (necessarily) - but even more so it appears that thorough coolant/heating system cleaning and operation of components and parts is required on these Triumph engined Midgets
as new they may not have needed (and indeed were not fitted with) the oil cooler that many later added but as use/abuse of ownership takes it toll on these engines the possible need for oil coolers might increase, sadly the need also for an oil thermostat to be fitted at the same time as the oil cooler is neglected
whilst the engine of the Spits and Midgets were the same the installation into the different cars and other components wasn't
ETA: to make it clearer that oil coolers should not be needed
not that this is the case here (necessarily) - but even more so it appears that thorough coolant/heating system cleaning and operation of components and parts is required on these Triumph engined Midgets
as new they may not have needed (and indeed were not fitted with) the oil cooler that many later added but as use/abuse of ownership takes it toll on these engines the possible need for oil coolers might increase, sadly the need also for an oil thermostat to be fitted at the same time as the oil cooler is neglected
whilst the engine of the Spits and Midgets were the same the installation into the different cars and other components wasn't
ETA: to make it clearer that oil coolers should not be needed
Edited by nta16 on Wednesday 29th May 13:47
Sorry Nigel got to disagree, I'm very familiar with these engines and they do not need an oil cooler. Indeed I believe it is detrimental in many ways.
Nor is the oil bypass pipe up to the rockers beneficial at all. And is also detrimental.
What they do need is maintaining properly and when being rebuilt being done so properly with particular care to the bottom end.
Hence why in 15 years of hard competition and road use I haven't had a single 1500 engine go pop.
Nor is the oil bypass pipe up to the rockers beneficial at all. And is also detrimental.
What they do need is maintaining properly and when being rebuilt being done so properly with particular care to the bottom end.
Hence why in 15 years of hard competition and road use I haven't had a single 1500 engine go pop.
wildoliver said:
Sorry Nigel got to disagree, I'm very familiar with these engines and they do not need an oil cooler. Indeed I believe it is detrimental in many ways.
Nor is the oil bypass pipe up to the rockers beneficial at all. And is also detrimental.
What they do need is maintaining properly and when being rebuilt being done so properly with particular care to the bottom end.
Hence why in 15 years of hard competition and road use I haven't had a single 1500 engine go pop.
no please do, WO as you may remember from other posts I totally agree with you about oil coolers (and on Bs) but on an unknown worn engine, where the true internal state of the 'water' and oil cooling systems isn't known and there's already a cooler fitted and with many experts saying they need an oil cooler then for someone new to or just returning to these cars I feel it's easier initially now to say add an oil thermostatNor is the oil bypass pipe up to the rockers beneficial at all. And is also detrimental.
What they do need is maintaining properly and when being rebuilt being done so properly with particular care to the bottom end.
Hence why in 15 years of hard competition and road use I haven't had a single 1500 engine go pop.
I'm sure you'd know I might have mentioned servicing, maintenance and repairs before
most don't want to jump in and rebuild the engine and rip out the oil cooler, and many if they've had work done on the engine think they need to protect it with an oil cooler
Karl's already resistant to my ideas so suggesting an oil cooler isn't usually required I doubt would have been accepted from me
you're right though I didn't meant to be so definite about the need for an oil cooler but more to suggest they're more need because things have gone wrong to perhaps need them (I'll try to edit it more to what I mean)
as you know I often get my words and meanings mixed up but previous posts will show what I think about oil coolers I was just trying to temper my approach to the subject not reverse it
I take the HG as a part of the cooling systems and also wonder based on your comment if it was torqued or retorqued badly, (retorquing the HG, now there another debated subject)
cheers
Nigel
I don't know why you would think i'm resistant to you suggestions? I've followed most of them. Probably get around to all of them when I get my garage back in order and the Midge of the ramps. Don't see the point in asking questions if your going to ignore the answers.
Anyway
She's ALIVE! All back together and running pretty well. Head and block checked out ok. I went through the box full of reciepts that came in the history file. It would appear that some time back (But not far in miles) the Midge had a replacement engine. Its is discribed by the garage as a "good used engine" hiw they knownthis is anyones guess. However they do state onthe paperwork that the head wasremove for inspection and refitted. I suspect as has been sudgested that the head was never re-torqued after the runin period as the car has covered very little mileage and been left standind for two years. The bill form this little lot was £1170!
I am not 100% sure as I can't remember the serial numbers for Spits but I think it may be a Triumph engine. The reason I say this is there is no water fill cap as part of the stat/pump housing, which has made it interesting to re-fill the system. So I'm looking for a more appropriate replacement.
I've got some info to read on SU setup/tunning then I'll get her as close as I can. Following that I'm going to find someone to do the final adjustments as I don't have an exhaust gas aniliser at hand.
Thanks for all the advise as always
KY
I don't know why you would think i'm resistant to you suggestions? I've followed most of them. Probably get around to all of them when I get my garage back in order and the Midge of the ramps. Don't see the point in asking questions if your going to ignore the answers.
Anyway
She's ALIVE! All back together and running pretty well. Head and block checked out ok. I went through the box full of reciepts that came in the history file. It would appear that some time back (But not far in miles) the Midge had a replacement engine. Its is discribed by the garage as a "good used engine" hiw they knownthis is anyones guess. However they do state onthe paperwork that the head wasremove for inspection and refitted. I suspect as has been sudgested that the head was never re-torqued after the runin period as the car has covered very little mileage and been left standind for two years. The bill form this little lot was £1170!
I am not 100% sure as I can't remember the serial numbers for Spits but I think it may be a Triumph engine. The reason I say this is there is no water fill cap as part of the stat/pump housing, which has made it interesting to re-fill the system. So I'm looking for a more appropriate replacement.
I've got some info to read on SU setup/tunning then I'll get her as close as I can. Following that I'm going to find someone to do the final adjustments as I don't have an exhaust gas aniliser at hand.
Thanks for all the advise as always
KY
sorry Karl I must have picked up the wrong impression as I am a very sensitive flower
I'd keep with the engine, lost of Spridgets have engine from other models - the engine as you know is quite an unimportant item on a car so no matter what it's like as long as it runs reasonably well you use it to sort the much more important systems and items like brakes, tyres, steering, suspension, lights, windows and mirrors
as well as the engine cooling systems
I've got bucket loads of info but mainly links to sources of information, such as the MG BBS where the Archive and live forums will have various idea on how to best to fill the 'water' cooling system
also the mgb-stuff site is full of info that also applies in principle to Spridgets
as for setting the carbs it's (stolen from WO) set tappets, CB points, plugs, timing and carb mixture in that order
some John Twist info on carbs for you as just posted elsewhere -
44 Secrets of the SU Carburettor Part 1 of 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GRAcqDySog&fea...
43 Secrets of the SU Part 2 of 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60Bj_2cZQnc&fea...
29 SU H-Type Carburetters - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHNlT5yHDxk&fea...
41 Matching SU Air Pistons - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfU47Oqq9wA
123 MG Carburetors & Doors (first part needles and seats, springs and carb oil) –
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9QI3NlvwiY&fea...
147 MG Carburetter Tuning - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nvGLgO6pj0&fea...
35 Tuning HIF Carburetters - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASeMfXfjNpw&fea...
Needle and seat - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVX_JClyeDQ&lis...
Setting the Float Height - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82YNx-RkGNI&lis...
I'd keep with the engine, lost of Spridgets have engine from other models - the engine as you know is quite an unimportant item on a car so no matter what it's like as long as it runs reasonably well you use it to sort the much more important systems and items like brakes, tyres, steering, suspension, lights, windows and mirrors
as well as the engine cooling systems
I've got bucket loads of info but mainly links to sources of information, such as the MG BBS where the Archive and live forums will have various idea on how to best to fill the 'water' cooling system
also the mgb-stuff site is full of info that also applies in principle to Spridgets
as for setting the carbs it's (stolen from WO) set tappets, CB points, plugs, timing and carb mixture in that order
some John Twist info on carbs for you as just posted elsewhere -
44 Secrets of the SU Carburettor Part 1 of 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GRAcqDySog&fea...
43 Secrets of the SU Part 2 of 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60Bj_2cZQnc&fea...
29 SU H-Type Carburetters - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHNlT5yHDxk&fea...
41 Matching SU Air Pistons - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfU47Oqq9wA
123 MG Carburetors & Doors (first part needles and seats, springs and carb oil) –
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9QI3NlvwiY&fea...
147 MG Carburetter Tuning - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nvGLgO6pj0&fea...
35 Tuning HIF Carburetters - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASeMfXfjNpw&fea...
Needle and seat - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVX_JClyeDQ&lis...
Setting the Float Height - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82YNx-RkGNI&lis...
I hope you meant £1170 was for PO
Dave on MG BBS has a 1500 that he put an engine in in a similar state to your (at first I didn't realise this and thought the engine had been rebuilt) his adventures would interest you
he wisely continued to use the car to improve its running and discover all its faults and he'd be the first to tell you the more he used it the better it got despite his set backs
in his posts and time with the car he's relearnt a lot of what he forgot from driving old cars back in the day and the threads highlights the need for diagnostics to save time and hassle - although we all like to try and work out what the source of the problem is (or guess a bit for some
)
Dave on MG BBS has a 1500 that he put an engine in in a similar state to your (at first I didn't realise this and thought the engine had been rebuilt) his adventures would interest you
he wisely continued to use the car to improve its running and discover all its faults and he'd be the first to tell you the more he used it the better it got despite his set backs
in his posts and time with the car he's relearnt a lot of what he forgot from driving old cars back in the day and the threads highlights the need for diagnostics to save time and hassle - although we all like to try and work out what the source of the problem is (or guess a bit for some
) That's brilliant. Thanks Nigel
I'll start viewing and reading.
I've done the tappets, point etc. it's the mixture where I start to get a bit lost.
Took a Westfield to Bogg Bros last year to get a set of GSXR1100 carbs set up on a 2.0L Pinto. It just amazes me what can be achieved with a few jets and an aniliser. They got 120bhp out of my standard Pinto within bike carbs. It was totally transformed form the DCOE 45's it was running previously.
If they were a bit closer the Midge would Be going for a visit.
Best fish and chips I've ever had round the corner as well
I'll start viewing and reading.
I've done the tappets, point etc. it's the mixture where I start to get a bit lost.
Took a Westfield to Bogg Bros last year to get a set of GSXR1100 carbs set up on a 2.0L Pinto. It just amazes me what can be achieved with a few jets and an aniliser. They got 120bhp out of my standard Pinto within bike carbs. It was totally transformed form the DCOE 45's it was running previously.
If they were a bit closer the Midge would Be going for a visit.
Best fish and chips I've ever had round the corner as well
as I put I do have loads of general, non-technical, non-mechanical info and links to more mechanical and technical stuff
I've had three Westies, one built up from a knock down kit from a dealer from when Westfield were trying to get dealers, not many people know about that but I do because I was that soldier, first time I meet Chris Smith it was when he was walking out of the office down the steps as I was walking up and he saw my Westie and said it should have a Q plate not normal reg on it because "it wasn't one of their cars" !
different matter when I was buying my two factory cars but he was still miserable then
I sat in the FW400 in the factory once and when he walked by and saw me he asked if I was interested in one but soon disappeared when I said I couldn't afford one
back to MGs
I know Bill (and many others) will quickly back me up in this - for MG rolling road tune-up at excellent value and work it's Peter Burgess - http://www.peter-burgess.com/newrollingroad.html
before discovering Peter I took my Midget to a local Westie and classic RR tuner and to a not so local A-series (Mini) expert rolling road tuner who charged me three times as much as Peter and done a third a good a a job as Peter (Peter was nice enough to suggest that perhaps the other chap just had an off day)
Peter place is engineering so not all glitz and glitter but honest and patient work, very decent bloke too
Peter also has chips for lunch and there's a good cafe nearby (but I've not been there)
I've had three Westies, one built up from a knock down kit from a dealer from when Westfield were trying to get dealers, not many people know about that but I do because I was that soldier, first time I meet Chris Smith it was when he was walking out of the office down the steps as I was walking up and he saw my Westie and said it should have a Q plate not normal reg on it because "it wasn't one of their cars" !
different matter when I was buying my two factory cars but he was still miserable then
I sat in the FW400 in the factory once and when he walked by and saw me he asked if I was interested in one but soon disappeared when I said I couldn't afford one
back to MGs
I know Bill (and many others) will quickly back me up in this - for MG rolling road tune-up at excellent value and work it's Peter Burgess - http://www.peter-burgess.com/newrollingroad.html
before discovering Peter I took my Midget to a local Westie and classic RR tuner and to a not so local A-series (Mini) expert rolling road tuner who charged me three times as much as Peter and done a third a good a a job as Peter (Peter was nice enough to suggest that perhaps the other chap just had an off day)
Peter place is engineering so not all glitz and glitter but honest and patient work, very decent bloke too
Peter also has chips for lunch and there's a good cafe nearby (but I've not been there)
Edited by nta16 on Thursday 30th May 00:10
Filling the water system shouldn't be a huge problem really.
Flush the rad and heater matrix while it's all stripped, then refill from the top with antifreeze solution making sure the heater valve is open. Run for a few mins then top up. No different to any other car really. Make sure the header tank is topped up so it can draw fluid if required and check periodically for leaks.
And don't forget to retorque that head it will go again otherwise. If it does go again even after retorquing sometheing is wrong, the engine isn't prone to head gasket failure, you then need to investigate further.
Flush the rad and heater matrix while it's all stripped, then refill from the top with antifreeze solution making sure the heater valve is open. Run for a few mins then top up. No different to any other car really. Make sure the header tank is topped up so it can draw fluid if required and check periodically for leaks.
And don't forget to retorque that head it will go again otherwise. If it does go again even after retorquing sometheing is wrong, the engine isn't prone to head gasket failure, you then need to investigate further.
Followed the set up guide that came with the SU service kit tonight. Took about 10 minutes and it started first turn and runs lovely.
Only down now is I think when all the back firing was going on during fault finding I must have done some serious damage to the exhaust silencer baffles? It's booming like a v8 now.
Does anyone have a reasonably prive second hand system or part system for sale? I've looked on line and to be honest funds are running to low for a new system this week.
Cheers Karl.
P S on the plus side the Wedge walked its MOT today with no advisories. Pretty pleased with that.
Only down now is I think when all the back firing was going on during fault finding I must have done some serious damage to the exhaust silencer baffles? It's booming like a v8 now.
Does anyone have a reasonably prive second hand system or part system for sale? I've looked on line and to be honest funds are running to low for a new system this week.
Cheers Karl.
P S on the plus side the Wedge walked its MOT today with no advisories. Pretty pleased with that.
try the guys on the MG BBS some of them sell s/h parts but the weight of a box would mean picking it up I guess, some have got lucky recently with exhausts or part of especially where someone has recently changed systems
check which box you need, if any, look for leaks on your current system
clean air filters help with the running, bit like thorough oil changes
check which box you need, if any, look for leaks on your current system
clean air filters help with the running, bit like thorough oil changes
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