GRRR Car's broken (and this time it's not even been driven!)
Discussion
Ok, it went into the Shed in May/June with everything working perfectly apart from the engine which was running like a bag of spanners after the points fell appart.
Anyway, fast foreward through the summer while I've been away with work and not driving it. New upgraded dizzy, hall effect points, and the engines running sweetly.
Drive it out the garrage and it doesn't stop on the driveway and the handbrake has wayyyyyyyy to much movement! By contrast the brake pedal had no movement at all!
Car up on bricks, wheels off, brake pistons pumped in/out/in/out and lubed with DOT4 and the brakes now feel fine, if a little underpowered, presume the disks have been covered with the same layer of greesy much as the rest of the car after spending the summer in a hot garrage with a full tank of petrol! Bit of dragging the brakes with the left foot to generate soem heat seems to be bringing them back to life. Anyone else got any theories as to why this happened? But hopefully it'll cure itself fairly quickly.
But the more anoying problem is the steering appeares to have siezed? It went into the garrage working perfectly, wheel as light as a feather, every ripple of the road transmitted to your fingertips etc etc etc (insert top gear sports car waffle here). Now it takes a herculean effort to turn the wheel arround anythign more than a gentle bend! And there's barely any feedback or slef centerign from the wheels. But when put on the bricks the hubs/wheel turn without any play or friction at all? I've greased the uprights in all the nipples untill fresh grease comes out the bushings, tyre pressure is the correct 22/24psi, this has got me stumped! Is it possible the bushings have somehow settled into a different shape over 4 months?
Like I said, it went into the garrage with one problem and came out with a different one. The brakes I half expected, and I was expecting the petrol to have gone off, battery flat etc, but the steering?
[EDIT]
Ohh and the track rod ends, the rubber boots have slipt apprt completely, anyone know where they're available for the 1500 without having to buy the whole end? The parts available for the 1275 but they're not interchanagble. Are the balls likely to be so dry/siexed that they bind under load? Like I said, they were fine when they went in the garrage, and the ends were new a couple of years back so looks like whatever spares available are a bit crap.
Anyway, fast foreward through the summer while I've been away with work and not driving it. New upgraded dizzy, hall effect points, and the engines running sweetly.
Drive it out the garrage and it doesn't stop on the driveway and the handbrake has wayyyyyyyy to much movement! By contrast the brake pedal had no movement at all!
Car up on bricks, wheels off, brake pistons pumped in/out/in/out and lubed with DOT4 and the brakes now feel fine, if a little underpowered, presume the disks have been covered with the same layer of greesy much as the rest of the car after spending the summer in a hot garrage with a full tank of petrol! Bit of dragging the brakes with the left foot to generate soem heat seems to be bringing them back to life. Anyone else got any theories as to why this happened? But hopefully it'll cure itself fairly quickly.
But the more anoying problem is the steering appeares to have siezed? It went into the garrage working perfectly, wheel as light as a feather, every ripple of the road transmitted to your fingertips etc etc etc (insert top gear sports car waffle here). Now it takes a herculean effort to turn the wheel arround anythign more than a gentle bend! And there's barely any feedback or slef centerign from the wheels. But when put on the bricks the hubs/wheel turn without any play or friction at all? I've greased the uprights in all the nipples untill fresh grease comes out the bushings, tyre pressure is the correct 22/24psi, this has got me stumped! Is it possible the bushings have somehow settled into a different shape over 4 months?
Like I said, it went into the garrage with one problem and came out with a different one. The brakes I half expected, and I was expecting the petrol to have gone off, battery flat etc, but the steering?
[EDIT]
Ohh and the track rod ends, the rubber boots have slipt apprt completely, anyone know where they're available for the 1500 without having to buy the whole end? The parts available for the 1275 but they're not interchanagble. Are the balls likely to be so dry/siexed that they bind under load? Like I said, they were fine when they went in the garrage, and the ends were new a couple of years back so looks like whatever spares available are a bit crap.
Edited by thisisnotaspoon on Monday 10th October 13:35
thisisnotaspoon said:
Drive it out the garrage and it doesn't stop on the driveway and the handbrake has wayyyyyyyy to much movement!
IIRC you’ve got a Spridget(?) – anyway, rear brake adjustment and/or grease and possibly adjust handbrake cablethisisnotaspoon said:
By contrast the brake pedal had no movement at all!
nope, that’s got methisisnotaspoon said:
Car up on bricks, wheels off, brake pistons pumped in/out/in/out and lubed with DOT4 and the brakes now feel fine, if a little underpowered, presume the disks have been covered with the same layer of greesy much as the rest of the car after spending the summer in a hot garrage with a full tank of petrol! Bit of dragging the brakes with the left foot to generate soem heat seems to be bringing them back to life. Anyone else got any theories as to why this happened? But hopefully it'll cure itself fairly quickly.
assume you checked rear wheel brake cylinders too – how old is the brake fluid in the system – driving and using the brakes may clean them up thisisnotaspoon said:
But the more anoying problem is the steering appeares to have siezed? It went into the garrage working perfectly, wheel as light as a feather, every ripple of the road transmitted to your fingertips etc etc etc (insert top gear sports car waffle here). Now it takes a herculean effort to turn the wheel arround anythign more than a gentle bend! And there's barely any feedback or slef centerign from the wheels. But when put on the bricks the hubs/wheel turn without any play or friction at all? I've greased the uprights in all the nipples untill fresh grease comes out the bushings, tyre pressure is the correct 22/24psi, this has got me stumped! Is it possible the bushings have somehow settled into a different shape over 4 months?
I can only thing of steering rack and that you regularly, 3-6 months, fully grease those six front nipples with grease that isn’t years old – you can go up a couple of psi with modern tyres thisisnotaspoon said:
… I was expecting the petrol to have gone off, battery flat etc, but the steering?
petrol should be fine for much longer and battery fine for that long if you’ve not got extras on the car and the battery and connections in good order, over a much longer time the tyres might get flat spotssorry someone with knowledge required
regular servicing and regular use will keep the car in trim but if all is in good order then 3 months lack of use whilst not desirable shouldn’t cause these problems
thisisnotaspoon said:
[EDIT]
Ohh and the track rod ends, the rubber boots have slipt apprt completely,
that’s not good is itOhh and the track rod ends, the rubber boots have slipt apprt completely,
thisisnotaspoon said:
anyone know where they're available for the 1500 without having to buy the whole end? The parts available for the 1275 but they're not interchanagble.
’ey, what!? at £11 a side for TRE -66 - Track rod end GSJ158 [66] More -
http://www.mgocspares.co.uk/acatalog/MGOC_SPARES_C...
thisisnotaspoon said:
Are the balls likely to be so dry/siexed that they bind under load?
I’d have thought sothisisnotaspoon said:
Like I said, they were fine when they went in the garrage, and the ends were new a couple of years back so looks like whatever spares available are a bit crap.
rubber parts or parts with rubber in have been crap for the last few years, hoses, drop links, etc., I even had four tyre valves get cracks in them after only two years – I’ve never heard of tyre valves cracking before this even on those who keep their tyres for far too many years[quote]assume you checked rear wheel brake cylinders too – how old is the brake fluid in the system – driving and using the brakes may clean them up
[/quote]
I didn't, but I rebuilt the rear hubs last year, and the brake cylinders are one 3yrs old and the others new. Fluid was new last winter.
Handbrake was bodged at the last MOT (cable is at it's limit and the rods on the axle were shortened as the T/F shaped pivot piece has loads of play, it passed the MOT standard but somethings obviously buggered elswhere in the system now.
Like I said, I think the brakes are now (mostly) sorted, and a bit of use should bring the power back.
It's the steering that's got me flumoxed, might give the tyres another couple of PSI and see what effect it has, I vaguely remember running 24/26psi but stuck withthe manual while i was troubleshooting.
[/quote]
I didn't, but I rebuilt the rear hubs last year, and the brake cylinders are one 3yrs old and the others new. Fluid was new last winter.
Handbrake was bodged at the last MOT (cable is at it's limit and the rods on the axle were shortened as the T/F shaped pivot piece has loads of play, it passed the MOT standard but somethings obviously buggered elswhere in the system now.
Like I said, I think the brakes are now (mostly) sorted, and a bit of use should bring the power back.
It's the steering that's got me flumoxed, might give the tyres another couple of PSI and see what effect it has, I vaguely remember running 24/26psi but stuck withthe manual while i was troubleshooting.
[quote]’ey, what!? at £11 a side for TRE -
66 - Track rod end GSJ158 [66] More -
[/quote]
yea, theres some in the post from MGOCspares, just resent paying £27 (inc postage/vat) when what's needed is the 50p rubber boot that's available for the older rack!
Existing ones are still shiny, smeared with grease and don't look worn/pitted.
Think I'm going to have to sell it, too much time spent fiddling when I'm away for home and never get to drive it! Although even broken it puts a smile on my face!
66 - Track rod end GSJ158 [66] More -
[/quote]
yea, theres some in the post from MGOCspares, just resent paying £27 (inc postage/vat) when what's needed is the 50p rubber boot that's available for the older rack!
Existing ones are still shiny, smeared with grease and don't look worn/pitted.
Think I'm going to have to sell it, too much time spent fiddling when I'm away for home and never get to drive it! Although even broken it puts a smile on my face!
Edited by thisisnotaspoon on Monday 10th October 14:35
thisisnotaspoon said:
and the brake cylinders are one 3yrs old and the others new.
rubber on the seals and rubber seals on master cylinder, rubber could be rubbish were ever it is used - could it also be master cylinder itself or rod or ?thisisnotaspoon said:
Fluid was new last winter.
thisisnotaspoon said:
Handbrake was bodged at the last MOT (cable is at it's limit and the rods on the axle were shortened as the T/F shaped pivot piece has loads of play, it passed the MOT standard but somethings obviously buggered elswhere in the system now.
bodging coming back to bite you on the ar*ethisisnotaspoon said:
Like I said, I think the brakes are now (mostly) sorted, and a bit of use should bring the power back.
if the pads are old they can go hard and/or if you don't drive it a lot then perhaps you're more use to modern brakesthisisnotaspoon said:
It's the steering that's got me flumoxed, might give the tyres another couple of PSI and see what effect it has, I vaguely remember running 24/26psi but stuck withthe manual while i was troubleshooting.
very few things are not as owners (Drivers) Handbook original settings so always the place to starta couple more psi will help with ride and handling and steering feel perhaps but not that much with the steering
old tyres of course don't help with breaking and tyres that are not used reglarly are not as good as thoses that are IMO
thisisnotaspoon said:
just resent paying £27 (inc postage/vat) when what's needed is the 50p rubber boot that's available for the older rack!
yes but unless it's NOS that boot will probably be rubbishI know how you feel as I took off a set of ARB drop links that last donkey's years to replace them with new ones where the rubber bushes lasted just over 2 years
but £27 for something as important as steering is peanuts (I bet you spend more than that on a night out)
thisisnotaspoon said:
Existing ones are still shiny, smeared with grease and don't look worn/pitted.
who knows if they're good but as above for £27 on steeringthisisnotaspoon said:
Think I'm going to have to sell it, too much time spent fiddling when I'm away for home and never get to drive it! Although even broken it puts a smile on my face!
unfortunately unless things change I think that is a sensible suggestionif you're not getting the time to drive the car or complete the work required then you're in a vicious circle of what you've already encountered
you not being able to drive the car often means that instead of resolving the problems they will remain and more will come because of its lack of use
plus finacially for what little you drive it it could work out cheaper to hire a classic for the odd journey or holiday
True about the bodge, it was the garrages idea after they ordered and fitted the wrong cable, then had to get it ready in an afternoon as I was coming to pick it up (they'd already pissed about with it for over 2 weeks by this point when all it wnet in for was a quick tune up and MOT and I just wanted it back!) so opted for shortening the links. Another thing to add to the list of things to do before the next MOT (allong with dont park on any hills!). Won't be going back there again seeing as the handbrake bodge seems to have failed, the points they fitted failed really quickly and the fuel hose (which they'd have had to take off to remove the air filter to access the carbs) poped off filling the engine bay and footwell with petrol, thankfully just after setting off so the exhaust was still cool!
Don't think its the master cylinder, that would manifest itself as the pedal slowly sinking under pressure and/or fluid pissin out into the footwell? The pedal feels fine, even pushing it by hand you can feel the front/rear brakes engageing one ofter the other, there just seems to be eff all power (and the unexplained issue with the handbrake). But the car is covered in a greasy film so I'm guessing a couple of litres of petrol's probably evaporated over the summer and the garrage only has the one vent and no one probably went in there all summer.
Just had a call from the MGOC to say the tie-rod ends are on their way so we'll see whether they fix anything.
Don't think its the master cylinder, that would manifest itself as the pedal slowly sinking under pressure and/or fluid pissin out into the footwell? The pedal feels fine, even pushing it by hand you can feel the front/rear brakes engageing one ofter the other, there just seems to be eff all power (and the unexplained issue with the handbrake). But the car is covered in a greasy film so I'm guessing a couple of litres of petrol's probably evaporated over the summer and the garrage only has the one vent and no one probably went in there all summer.
Just had a call from the MGOC to say the tie-rod ends are on their way so we'll see whether they fix anything.
Edited by thisisnotaspoon on Monday 10th October 16:17
thisisnotaspoon said:
. . . Won't be going back there again seeing as the handbrake bodge seems to have failed, the points they fitted failed really quickly and the fuel hose (which they'd have had to take off to remove the air filter to access the carbs) poped off filling the engine bay and footwell with petrol, thankfully just after setting off so the exhaust was still cool!
unfortunately theses type of garages are not uncommon - mind points are another modern part that are rubbish madethisisnotaspoon said:
The pedal feels fine,
my mistake I thought the pedal still had no movement at allthisisnotaspoon said:
even pushing it by hand you can feel the front/rear brakes engageing one ofter the other,
don’t they all operate at the same timethisisnotaspoon said:
there just seems to be eff all power (and the unexplained issue with the handbrake). But the car is covered in a greasy film so I'm guessing a couple of litres of petrol's probably evaporated over the summer and the garrage only has the one vent and no one probably went in there all summer.
could be other stuff, and/or brake fluid in drums?thisisnotaspoon said:
Just had a call from the MGOC to say the tie-rod ends are on their way so we'll see whether they fix anything.
hope they at the very least help, alignment will also be required probably/possiblythings have got to be better with them fitted, once done things will seem better
[quote]my mistake I thought the pedal still had no movement at all
...........
don’t they all operate at the same time
[/quote]
Might have misstyped it, I meant the pedal had no movement at all, then I pumped the pistons in/out and lubed them with DOT4, and now it moves as normal with a bit of movement then a bit of resistance as one set of brakes engage then the other, but still no power.
[quote]could be other stuff, and/or brake fluid in drums?
[/quote]
Could be, but the brake cylinders are new (ish), hub bearings and seals are new(ish)
[quote]hope they at the very least help, alignment will also be required probably/possibly
things have got to be better with them fitted, once done things will seem better
[/quote]
I'm pinning my hopes on not oving the locknut and putting the new ones in the same position. Failing that it's good to hear I'm not the only one who convinces myself it's better because it's fixed even when theres been no improvement
...........
don’t they all operate at the same time
[/quote]
Might have misstyped it, I meant the pedal had no movement at all, then I pumped the pistons in/out and lubed them with DOT4, and now it moves as normal with a bit of movement then a bit of resistance as one set of brakes engage then the other, but still no power.
[quote]could be other stuff, and/or brake fluid in drums?
[/quote]
Could be, but the brake cylinders are new (ish), hub bearings and seals are new(ish)
[quote]hope they at the very least help, alignment will also be required probably/possibly
things have got to be better with them fitted, once done things will seem better
[/quote]
I'm pinning my hopes on not oving the locknut and putting the new ones in the same position. Failing that it's good to hear I'm not the only one who convinces myself it's better because it's fixed even when theres been no improvement
sorry if I appeared to be not my usual pessermistic self, it wasn't meant that way 
re; new bits, you've obviously not had the benefit of my full notes:-
Be aware that brand new parts can sometimes be faulty, especially electrical bits (and rubber bits) so don’t discount them when problem solving just because they are new, buy good quality parts (if you can get them)
Don’t assume the parts and components already fitted to the car are necessarily the original or correct type
brake cylinders have rubber seals - and they're new
and you should have these problems after such a short time
re; new bits, you've obviously not had the benefit of my full notes:-
Be aware that brand new parts can sometimes be faulty, especially electrical bits (and rubber bits) so don’t discount them when problem solving just because they are new, buy good quality parts (if you can get them)
Don’t assume the parts and components already fitted to the car are necessarily the original or correct type
brake cylinders have rubber seals - and they're new
and you should have these problems after such a short time
Edited by na on Tuesday 11th October 18:12
Did you get to the bottom of your rear brake issue?
From your initial description it sounded like it could be the pivot in the h.b. actuator lever seizing up with the brakes on. That would give the no slack in pedal and excess movement in hand brake lever if the shoes never fully released and take the tension back up in the cable. If the MOT guy then just tightened it further to make it "work" all it will do is screw the rear shoes and fill the drums with dust.
One of mine did this on the B and all I could do was unhitch it from the shoes and backplate and give it a dammed good waggling until it moved freely, put a generous lick of copper goo on the joint and replaced the rubber boot on the backplate that had let damp in and caused it to seize in the first place. Been fine since.
Could be wrong but worth a look and an easy fix.
ETA: looking at how the Midget rods work, if they were shorted by much their action at the wheel would be severely reduced compared to the hand brake movement. If having re-read you posts if there is play in the pivots of the hand brake actuator (I think that must be the T/F shaped lever you refer to) those can't be expensive replace.
On the steering, how much have you driven the car since bringing it out of hibernation? When I first bought my B, it's steering was stiff after being laid-up by the previous owner for some months but came good after a few miles. Have you got anywhere with it yet?
From your initial description it sounded like it could be the pivot in the h.b. actuator lever seizing up with the brakes on. That would give the no slack in pedal and excess movement in hand brake lever if the shoes never fully released and take the tension back up in the cable. If the MOT guy then just tightened it further to make it "work" all it will do is screw the rear shoes and fill the drums with dust.
One of mine did this on the B and all I could do was unhitch it from the shoes and backplate and give it a dammed good waggling until it moved freely, put a generous lick of copper goo on the joint and replaced the rubber boot on the backplate that had let damp in and caused it to seize in the first place. Been fine since.
Could be wrong but worth a look and an easy fix.
ETA: looking at how the Midget rods work, if they were shorted by much their action at the wheel would be severely reduced compared to the hand brake movement. If having re-read you posts if there is play in the pivots of the hand brake actuator (I think that must be the T/F shaped lever you refer to) those can't be expensive replace.
On the steering, how much have you driven the car since bringing it out of hibernation? When I first bought my B, it's steering was stiff after being laid-up by the previous owner for some months but came good after a few miles. Have you got anywhere with it yet?
Edited by danger mouse on Sunday 22 January 22:41
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