MK-Holztechnik dashboard conversions?

[2winscrew]

anyone here done one of these conversions?

http://www.mk-holztechnik.de/englisch/

I've got one of his shift knobs and just surfing and tempting myself about swapping my plane-jane 1990 set up for one of his....and move the speedo and tach into the center of the dash so I can actually see them....the motolite wheel is calling my name too

a couple of questions

1) how involved is it to swap the dashboard on a traditional roadster?
2) the chrome gauge rings on all of his examples...are these supplied and will they fit over my factory VDO gauges? or am I into swapping all the gauges as well?

this is the set up I'm loving
http://www.mk-holztechnik.de/englisch/images/versi... but I'd stick with my black gauges as the car is red ext with black interior

this pic shows combinations where the 4 factory small gauges and clock would fit in front of the driver - and have a centre section that simply houses the speedo and tach with all the toggles
http://www.mk-holztechnik.de/englisch/images/parma...

appreciate any insight

cheers

Tim

[asbojohn]

Tim

Try posting here http://www.talkmorgan.com/ if they cant help I sure they will be able to point you in the right direction.

John

[rodschwarz]

2winscrew said:

anyone here done one of these conversions?

http://www.mk-holztechnik.de/englisch/

I've got one of his shift knobs and just surfing and tempting myself about swapping my plane-jane 1990 set up for one of his....and move the speedo and tach into the center of the dash so I can actually see them....the motolite wheel is calling my name too

a couple of questions

1) how involved is it to swap the dashboard on a traditional roadster?
2) the chrome gauge rings on all of his examples...are these supplied and will they fit over my factory VDO gauges? or am I into swapping all the gauges as well?

this is the set up I'm loving
http://www.mk-holztechnik.de/englisch/images/versi... but I'd stick with my black gauges as the car is red ext with black interior

this pic shows combinations where the 4 factory small gauges and clock would fit in front of the driver - and have a centre section that simply houses the speedo and tach with all the toggles
http://www.mk-holztechnik.de/englisch/images/parma...

appreciate any insight

cheers

Tim

Tim,

My 1997 (short door) +8 had a Kauffeld dashboard. All the versions are high quality products and
I can recommend them.

I chose Version
http://www.mk-holztechnik.de/deutsch/images/versio...
as I prefer tachometer and speedometer in front of me. At least one of the instruments was too far away for me in the version you prefer. I do understand that many people like the other versions better as they remind at the first +8 dashboards. Presumably you can't see tachometer and speedometer now but with the Kauffeld dash it was different. These instruments are much closer together than in the standard dash and therefore don't hide behind the steering wheel.
(I mention this as I've got the impression one of the reasons for Version 2 was that you can't see the instrument now. Maybe I'm wrong.)

Changing the dashboards will take a few hours. This has little to do with the dash boards but more with the instruments as most cables will need extensions for their new location. It is not a difficult job. Use numbers for the cables and on the instruments to connect them properly again.

The chrome rings will fit over your VDO gauges but iirc this is not a job you can do. Afaik Matthias sends the gauges to VDO where the rings are fitted. My experience is 12 years old therefore I would recommend to contact Matthias. He can tell you whether you can fit them or who could fit them and how long this will take.

Rod

Edited by rodschwarz on Saturday 21st February 18:31

[rodschwarz]

Tim,

As you are in Canada, you should contact Lorne Goldman. He has got two +8s with Kauffeld dashboards and will be able to tell you more about the rings. This is what he wrote about his UK Morgan: 'The instruments (VDOs) will be cleaned and re-bezeled in chrome by Belmog through John Worrall (Heart of England Morgans).'
I don't know who did the job in Canada.

You can see both dashboards on this website:
http://www.gomog.com/restoration/restoration8.html
The dash for the UK car is a standard version. The one of the Canadian car is a one-off.
Matthias can do whatever you want him to do.

Rod

[2winscrew]

rodschwarz said:

Tim,

As you are in Canada, you should contact Lorne Goldman. He has got two +8s with Kauffeld dashboards and will be able to tell you more about the rings. This is what he wrote about his UK Morgan: 'The instruments (VDOs) will be cleaned and re-bezeled in chrome by Belmog through John Worrall (Heart of England Morgans).'
I don't know who did the job in Canada.

You can see both dashboards on this website:
http://www.gomog.com/restoration/restoration8.html
The dash for the UK car is a standard version. The one of the Canadian car is a one-off.
Matthias can do whatever you want him to do.

Rod

thank you for all that info Rod....you might be correct on the speedo-tach on the MK dash....not to mention the motolita wheel may offer a better view....I plan on committing to the new wheel this season...so maybe that might be the right approach by living with the new wheel before committing to a new dash/gauge arrangement

I know Lorne, we've been emailing back and forth on a few subjects as I'm knee-deep into engine bay modifications, swapping more dull factory stuff for lots of polished aluminum...so I will be defintely be asking for his input as well

cheers

Tim

[gomog]

asbojohn said:

Tim
Try posting here http://www.talkmorgan.com/ if they cant help I sure they will be able to point you in the right direction.
John

Really?

Lorne

[gomog]

2winscrew said:

anyone here done one of these conversions?
http://www.mk-holztechnik.de/englisch/
dash...the motolite wheel is calling my name too
1) how involved is it to swap the dashboard on a traditional roadster?
2) the chrome gauge rings on all of his examples...are these supplied and will they fit over my factory VDO gauges? or am I into swapping all the gauges as well?
http://www.mk-holztechnik.de/englisch/images/versi... but I'd stick with my black gauges as the car is red ext with black interior
appreciate any insight, cheers Tim

Hi Tim,

You get about! (smile) The owner of Holtztechnik is a very sweet guy by the name of Matthias Kauffelt. The dashes are normally referred to as "Kauffelt dashes". He is an old school craftsman and an brilliant perfectionist. He creates Morgan dashes to the standards of the Golden Age of Rolls Royce. Remarkable!

As Roderich noted, I have two of them. The first is a total one-off made for my Canadian Morgan..which is a Factory one-off itself. The dash was the first Matthias made for North America but there have been many since. Dennis Glavis of Morgan West has become a Kauffelt agent. It has Factory supplied Smith magnolia gauges with chrome bezels. The second Kauffelt dash is a copy (save for one feature) of the dash it replaced which was a 1990 VDO gauged Factory burl.

I mention the gauges to address your question on rebezeling. It is rather a simple task to change Smith's bezels and not difficult to find Smiths bezels. You could even do it yourself or have the local watch repairer do it. However, rebezeling VDO is more difficult and requires a special machine and the bezels are HARD to source. It was simpler for me as that car is in the UK. I had them rebezeled by a friend, Hedwig Rodyn of BelMog in Belgium. He did it as a very kind favor. However, I am not sure he will do it anymore.

Luckily, Matthias lives close to the VDO center in Germany (VDO is a German product) and if you send your gauges to him, he can arrange to have it done by them for you. They will clean the faces as well which will make a big difference. If you have any problems, contact me. I may have other sources for you.


I too chose to keep the UK car's gauge faces black. It better matched the look I was shooting for...which I wished to be VERY subdued and elegant, highlighted only by flashes of chrome fittings and a subtle pearl effect. The car is painted a blue so dark it is often mistaken for black. For this reason, Matthias and I decided to darken the dash (It is actually much darker than the camera flash picture shows).

You can have Matthias make the dash in the hue and tint your choose. In the case of my mog in Canada, we had the steering wheel, the door panels, the gear knob, and the consl I designed all matched. As it we were aiming for a much more sportier look, I had everything made a bit lighter for that car.


Pick your dash tint and hue to match your car. Send your gear knob to Matthias. He will refinish it to match.

As you can see from the dashes, I have one with custom toggle switches and the other has the Morgan switch cluster plate. The toggle switches take more wiring expertise, especially the hazard switch which will require no less then 4 relays to work! (Many people simply place the old emergency flasher discretely under the new dash, but I am a perfectionist as well [sigh]). I have the wiring diagram for you if you wish to go with a toggle hazard switch.

I agree your (my old) switch cluster plate is a fright with its ugly flaking dull black paint. However, it is VERY convenient for wiring. You have five options. Change it for a metal plate turned in the classic mode. Change it for a polished or chromed metal plate. Pad and leather cover the plate in a colour matching your upholstery (Matthias will also give you a matching leather bead at the bottom of the dash. Remove it completely and go with toggles. Or do what I did, have it painted the same colour as the car. (I tried that in late 2005 and the Factory started doing it in 2007 after I posted pictures.)

I know places in the UK that will supply turned metal for dash plates or chroming the existing plate is not difficult. However, I have driven cars that have done both and it can blind the driver with the suns reflection.

If you do decide to go with toggles as I did one one car, have Matthias name each switch. He can inset the letters INTO the finish. Also have him place jewels (the little inset coloured lights) next to the switches so that you will know they are on. Have jewels replace the brake, indicator and engine lights now in front of your steering wheel. The Morgan plastic thingie is a ugly fright!

On steering wheels..I am not a wooden Moto-Lita person ESPECIALLY with a burl dash. Firstly, Moto-Litas are very thin. I have small hands and cannot feel good with one unless I wear special padded palm gloves. Secondly, Moto-Litas are made of laminated wood, therefore no grain. Burl is one of the boldest, most distinctive grains in the world. They look discordant together (IMHO).

I lucked out with one steering wheel. Some years ago Matthias tried an experiment. He had two steering wheels made with SOLID (!) burl walnut on polished Moto-Lita frames. The wood was made thick enough to comfortably fill a palm and the grain stands out beautifully complimenting the dash and door panels. Sadly, the prototypes turned out too expensive to market. Matthias has one prototype on his car and I have the other on mine in Canada. In the UK, the Factory got me a padded Moto-Lita which was leather recovered to match the UK interior.

I have personally switched stock dashes for Kauffelts twice by myself. This is considerably easier with the cars made before the latest heater and the habit of enclosing off the under dash wiring. One must take GREAT care to get the wiring correct. Use labels AND digital images to assist. I can swap a dash and instruments in an unhurried 2-4 hours depending on whether the choice is for toggles or original switches, new or old setups.

If you run into electrical hassles (backfeeds are possible with this many changes), you can try asojohn's advice. Alternatively, I know the wiring of any of your options thoroughly.

Lorne

Edited by gomog on Sunday 22 February 16:27

[Boshly]

gomog said:

asbojohn said:

Tim
Try posting here http://www.talkmorgan.com/ if they cant help I sure they will be able to point you in the right direction.
John

Really?

Lorne

How disrespectful arrogant and uninformed you are.

I know you are 'poking the wasps nest' in your inimitable over-bearing and pompous manner and as such (and in view of apt comments in view of our last 'debate' under your Bartell persona) I will not post further to any response you care to make. Though you can of course PM me should you so wish.

However you are well aware, as you frequent the forum regularly, that the forum owner at Talk Morgan frequently refers Trad issues that do not get satisfactory solutions on TM to your own forum. Your knowledge of Trads and in particular the +8 is renowned and deservedley so. I do not deny you this. Your pomposity and arrogance in the manner with which you speak to and about people however doesn't become a person of your position.

Enough said.

Andy

Edited by Boshly on Sunday 22 February 20:49

[2winscrew]

thanks Lorne....as thorough as always

I've got more thinking/preparing to do and come up with a firm plan.

After Rod's suggestion I'm now leaning towards a set up where a +8 owner mounted a Mig Aircraft clock with the speedo/tach behind the steering wheel...gorgeous set up

Matthias has returned my note and has also suggested additional wheel options

I'm getting an MK console in the mean time, while I figure out how to tackle this

appreciate all the feedback folks

[gomog]

Boshly said:

How disrespectful arrogant and uninformed you are. I know you are 'poking the wasps nest' in your inimitable over-bearing and pompous manner and as such (and in view of apt comments in view of our last 'debate' under your Bartell persona) I will not post further to any response you care to make.

Your pomposity and arrogance in the manner with which you speak to and about people however doesn't become a person of your position. Enough said. Andy

I am not sure what you are referring to but whatever it is, do you not think you are going way over the top? Are you having particularly bad day? So many of us are lately.

Regardless, my regrets for whatever post caused your bile. I sadly have only one "persona"..me, Lorne...which you apparently do not care for. I shall have to learn to live with that.

Lorne

Edited by gomog on Sunday 22 February 21:56

[gomog]

2winscrew said:

thanks Lorne....as thorough as always

No problem. I'm happy to help.

2winscrew said:

After Rod's suggestion I'm now leaning towards a set up where a +8 owner mounted a Mig Aircraft clock with the speedo/tach behind the steering wheel...gorgeous set up

Yes I know the car and owner well. I helped design the dash. It won the MogWest Concours in California immediately after it was fitted. I believe the bezels may have been the sort that are applied over the originals and were done locally. I will check that out for you.

Here are clearer pictures of the gauges than the one you have from Matthias' site. Lorne

[2winscrew]

gomog said:

Here are clearer pictures of the gauges than the one you have from Matthias' site. Lorne

hooo....that's just freakin gorgeous....the ivory gauges with the tan hyde is just perfect

please let the owner know I'm drooling....and I hope he doesn't mind me borrowing the set up...it's just simple, uncluttered and stunning

no ivory on mine....gauges will be black...toggles etc...black and chrome

what's the rest of his car like?

as you know, I'm starting to think interior because the engine bay is stepping up another notch soon....all parts are now off in the polisher's hands

[gomog]

2winscrew said:

hooo....that's just freakin gorgeous....the ivory gauges with the tan hyde is just perfect please let the owner know I'm drooling....and I hope he doesn't mind me borrowing the set up...it's just simple, uncluttered and stunning

He won't mind you borrowing it. He borrowed it from me. (smile)

I got his story and details for you as promised. Here it is;

"With the exception of the Mig clock, all of the gauges are the same as supplied to the car in 1987. However, I did certain things with the gauges to meet my aesthetics:

All gauges were colour-matched to a paint chip I chose to work with my Mog's colours. The colour is not "magnolia", which would have been too green to work with my warm interior colour. The only way to make this choice is to collect many, many chips and then choose. One important consideration is not to choose a colour that exactly matches the interior, which would be "too too". The gauge faces are vertical, so the colour should be selected with the chips in a vertical configuration.

It was important to me to make the face colour "pop" a little, so a lighter shade was my choice over a darker shade. The colour I chose is a Dunn Edwards colour called "Champagne", but my choice should not impact your friend's choice, presuming his interior is different. By the way, the interior has been recoloured to match the new vinyl color MMC supplied for the side screen bag. It was definitely a bit more "red" than the yellow of the original vinyl and the original leather. The more "red" shade works better than the yellowish tone with my Tudor Red exterior.

All of this is unimportant to your friend's choice, except to advise him to take a lot of time to collect a lot of chips and a lot of time to make the choice. The gauge face colour was made into spray paint by a local automobile paint supply shop, using a computer to get the colour off the chip. The same colour was used to re-colour the toggle switches and the base/face of the Kauffelt Jaguar light switch and the starter button sourced from Melvyn Rutter. Melvyn's starter button was purchased as a cream button, but clearly Melvyn simply painted over a black button. Matthias also re-coloured all the switches and the button when my pathetic efforts failed.

Besides the gauge face/switch/button color, all of the standard gauge faces were re-done to my taste at a gauge shop called Redline in Santa Clarita, California ("Shannon"). Redline took an inordinate amount of time to do the work, many, many months. The major gauges were simplified by removing much of the standard letter/number/other marks. For example, I removed any reference to “Tudor” and instead re-labeled all gauges “Smiths”. I removed the kilometres marks and an inner circle mark. I did the same for the smaller gauges, including removing the European symbols. If your other friend wishes, you can email him images of my gauges from those I sent you. Also, note that the colour of the numerals and other marks on the gauges and the wands were changed to my taste. I did not feel the cocoa-brown colour on my 1958 Morgan was appropriate. I was looking for a very dark brown/black. Unfortunately, the first colour I chose was too dark and all the gauge stencils had to be re-done a slightly lighter colour. Care must be taken to also colour the round centres of the wands, too.

The biggest task was to re-do the Mig clock to my taste. This included matching the font to the art deco font of the Smiths gauges and removing the Cryllic lettering. It required Redline to make entirely new face plates, as the original Mig face plate has indented Cryllic lettering. Also there are little nubs on the back of the Mig face plate which must be duplicated. I originally took the Mig clock to a watchmaker to remove the face plate and fragile wands. He safely kept the “guts” of the clock for many, many months while Redline delayed. All of the gauge bezels were changed from the original black to chrome. The Mig clock bezel is aluminum, so it required a chrome shop with the ability to chrome over aluminum to do the job.

I did not attempt to chrome the two winders of the Mig clock from aluminum to chrome because I was concerned about the tolerances. The wands of the Mig clock were re-colored by a Walt Disney miniaturist, since I wanted the two-tone on the minute and hour wands to remain, rather than to make them monochromatic. This took a real artist! He also put a bit of Tudor Red on the wand ends and re-colored the centers of the Mig clock winders in Tudor Red.

If I were to re-do the gauges again I would make one change: By removing a lot of the unwanted detailing from the main gauges, tach and speedo, the remaining numerals look a bit too small for my taste and should have been made one-third larger. As for the MK dash, itself, I chose the lighter of the two shades suggested by Matthias. This beautiful veneer has some hint of red and lots of black in it, hence the need to make the gauge wands a brown/black hue.

I did not want the Morgan wings on the dash or the body welting on its bottom. The switches and indicator lights, from left to right: HEAT yellow indicator light for rad fan) RAD Jaguar light switch FOG (yellow indicator light for hazards) HAZARD. I used yellow indicator lights because they seemed to blend best with the dash. Between the main gauges the indicator lights are as follows: At the top: two green indicator lights for turn signals, below green lights: yellow indicator light for battery; below yellow light: blue indicator light for high beams; below blue light: red indicator light for hand brake. I also installed door cappings to match the dash. When the old, leather dash was removed and the MK dash installed, there was some spaces in the recesses at the ends of the dash, so Derek Willburn painted these recesses flat black. The steering wheel is a Moto Lita, recoloured by Matthias to match the dash and the new shift knob. The Disney miniaturist re-painted the Morgan script on the hub in Tudor Red, and the indented circle around the face of the hub. That’s it! Wish your other friend good luck and thanks again for your help with mine!"

2winscrew said:

no ivory on mine....gauges will be black...toggles etc...black and chrome

Right. Depends on the interior.

2winscrew said:

what's the rest of his car like? as you know, I'm starting to think interior because the engine bay is stepping up another notch soon....all parts are now off in the polisher's hands

A red car. Engine bay is polished but not chromed. Frankly, I have had both and prefer chrome and polished stainless. Polished alloy goes opaque rather quickly and needs regular maintainance . Chrome and polished stainless are brilliant forever without work. (Curiously, unpolished stainless stains.)

Here are my bays. The second car (in Canada) has a custom built long block done by a kind UK friend. He had the engine polished as a birthday present! But as I said, alloy is hard to keep clean. The Morgan Factory polished the bulkhead and valences when they re-created the car for me in 2002.







Good luck!

Lorne

[2winscrew]

wow...he went to a crazy amount of detail over the colour of the gauges!!!

sticking with black here....save some grey hairs

trying to source out a MIG clock at the moment....and I was surfing looking a Smiths gauges to simply replace the factory VDOs as an option

I'm a bit confused....does Matthias use custom chrome rings in addition to the production gauge if the gauge already has a chrome ring?

simply swapping all gauges with new ones makes it a whole bunch easier on my end....but I'm trying to figure how to get a new mechanical speedo's odometer reset to the car's current mileage

this is fun...

[fly fisher]

MIG Clock...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Cockpit-Panel-Clock-AChS-1So...

Can you power them or are they just wind up...

Will

[2winscrew]

fly fisher said:

MIG Clock...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Cockpit-Panel-Clock-AChS-1So...

Can you power them or are they just wind up...

Will

thank you Will

I actually snagged one off ebay earlier today...should have it shortly

edit: and as I understand, just a wind-up with a 3 day power reserve, not sure if (like an automatic watch) the car's movement will "keep it wound"

they do have electric leads, but that's for a heating element needed because of the airplane's environment in super low temps etc...not needed in the car

Edited by 2winscrew on Monday 23 February 20:57

Edited by 2winscrew on Monday 23 February 20:59

[gomog]

gomog said:

One must take GREAT care to get the wiring correct. Use labels AND digital images to assist. I can swap a dash and instruments in an unhurried 2-4 hours depending on whether the choice is for toggles or original switches, new or old setups.
If you run into electrical hassles (backfeeds are possible with this many changes), you can try asojohn's advice. Lorne

A codicil.

One of the difficulties in wiring in toggles was the hazard switch. As I noted, the hazard required complex wiring utilizing 4 relay switches. However, I was chatting with Steve Simmonds today and he has found an item that makes this easy. No multiple relay switches, easy to wire and it has the added advnatage that it will allow you an adjustable delay before it starts to sound that you have left your indicator lights on.

Lorne

[mph]

[/quote]

thank you Will

I actually snagged one off ebay earlier today...should have it shortly

edit: and as I understand, just a wind-up with a 3 day power reserve, not sure if (like an automatic watch) the car's movement will "keep it wound"

they do have electric leads, but that's for a heating element needed because of the airplane's environment in super low temps etc...not needed in the car

Edited by 2winscrew on Monday 23 February 20:57

Edited by 2winscrew on Monday 23 February 20:59

[/quote]

Most of the aircraft clocks have an 8 day movement and are wind up only. Although more expensive, I would prefer to get an original Smiths or equivalent, with a time of trip function. They are more in keeping with the car and were often fitted in the 50s and 60's for amateur rallies etc.

[2winscrew]

gomog said:

gomog said:

One must take GREAT care to get the wiring correct. Use labels AND digital images to assist. I can swap a dash and instruments in an unhurried 2-4 hours depending on whether the choice is for toggles or original switches, new or old setups.
If you run into electrical hassles (backfeeds are possible with this many changes), you can try asojohn's advice. Lorne

A codicil.

One of the difficulties in wiring in toggles was the hazard switch. As I noted, the hazard required complex wiring utilizing 4 relay switches. However, I was chatting with Steve Simmonds today and he has found an item that makes this easy. No multiple relay switches, easy to wire and it has the added advnatage that it will allow you an adjustable delay before it starts to sound that you have left your indicator lights on.

Lorne

good to know

my main concern right now is understanding exactly what's involved in installing the chrome rings on the factory VDO gauges

I've got some pretty talented friends here locally that have been incredibly helpful with my Mustang, and I'm quite confident that we could handle the job here

might have to get one ring from Matthias and get my hands on a throw-away gauge and giver a go to see if we can handle it

[gomog]

2winscrew said:

my main concern right now is understanding exactly what's involved in installing the chrome rings on the factory VDO gauges

As best as I can understand it (from VDO and others), it that it involves using a special tool (a press?) made by VDO for the job. Other instrument experts could not to it for lack of this.

However, there are two possibilities. One is replacing the bezels (that is what I did) and the other option is finding bezels made to cover over the original bezels. I know that the second are made.

Lorne