Chim suddenly won't start :-(
Discussion
Hi everyone,
My 96 Chim has suddenly decided it doesn't want to start. It's been parked since I got it in October but I've started it periodically and moved it up and down the drive...
A few weeks ago it stopped starting all of a sudden. I could hear the fuel pump whirr, but absolutely nothing from the starter motor.
I thought the battery was shot because it was looking pretty old and I'd been charging it regularly with a charger to keep it charged, and thought this may have also knackered it.
So I went out and got a brand new battery, thinking that my Chim would spring back to life - but no. When I try to start it, same thing as before - fuel pump whirrs but absolutely nothing - the dash lights DON'T dim either when I'm trying to start it.
I suspect it's something to do with the dreaded immobiliser. What I've done before to start the car was to first use the key fob to open the car (obvs) and then kind of press the key fob again when behind the wheel and/or insert the plastic immobiliser key stick thing into the side of steering and that resulted in an engine that starts - but not anymore.
Should I bash every relay in the footwell I can find? Or has the started just suddenly given up the ghost?
Any help much appreciated
My 96 Chim has suddenly decided it doesn't want to start. It's been parked since I got it in October but I've started it periodically and moved it up and down the drive...
A few weeks ago it stopped starting all of a sudden. I could hear the fuel pump whirr, but absolutely nothing from the starter motor.
I thought the battery was shot because it was looking pretty old and I'd been charging it regularly with a charger to keep it charged, and thought this may have also knackered it.
So I went out and got a brand new battery, thinking that my Chim would spring back to life - but no. When I try to start it, same thing as before - fuel pump whirrs but absolutely nothing - the dash lights DON'T dim either when I'm trying to start it.
I suspect it's something to do with the dreaded immobiliser. What I've done before to start the car was to first use the key fob to open the car (obvs) and then kind of press the key fob again when behind the wheel and/or insert the plastic immobiliser key stick thing into the side of steering and that resulted in an engine that starts - but not anymore.
Should I bash every relay in the footwell I can find? Or has the started just suddenly given up the ghost?
Any help much appreciated
It is not your imobiliser. If it was the fuel pump would not prime.
You need to be looking at the starter motor circuit. Not sure where i would begin looking though. Maybe there is a relay for the starter selonoid that has gone bad. I know the common fuel pump relay has another beside it for the ignition.
You need to be looking at the starter motor circuit. Not sure where i would begin looking though. Maybe there is a relay for the starter selonoid that has gone bad. I know the common fuel pump relay has another beside it for the ignition.
Edited by steviegtr on Thursday 30th May 16:51
THEDAVINATOR said:
that could well be the case...he he... Well I just need a bit more patience the thing because I intend to from June...Where would I find this "hot start mod" that people speak of? Mine might have it, might not - where should I be looking?
steviegtr said:
It is not your imobiliser. If it was the fuel pump would not prime.
You need to be looking at the starter motor circuit. Not sure where i would begin looking though. Maybe there is a relay for the starter selonoid that has gone bad. I know the common fuel pump relay has another beside it for the ignition.
I disagree, it could be the immobiliser. It has 2 circuits, one for the ECU / fuel pump and one for the starter solenoid. It is the relay that carries the current to the starter solenoid that most often degrades. There is no other relay tot the starter solenoid other than the one in the immobiliser. You will get the whirr of the fuel pump, but on turning the key, nothing.You need to be looking at the starter motor circuit. Not sure where i would begin looking though. Maybe there is a relay for the starter selonoid that has gone bad. I know the common fuel pump relay has another beside it for the ignition.
Edited by steviegtr on Thursday 30th May 16:51
If you search for the 'hot start' kit, you'll find it is a sticking plaster, not a proper solution, TVR wired the immobiliser so that the the high current path went through the low current rated relay.
It could 100% be the starter motor solenoid circuit on your immobiliser.
It is a well known failure point.
Especially if you have a Meta alarm, because of the way TVR wired it.
I have the older Foxguard unit in my '95 Chim, and the immobiliser internal relay was failing to pull in, so I was getting fuel pump prime, but no starter motor.
It's very easy to bypass it to test that theory.
The instructions are on a Pistonheads post somewhere, and a number of us have the instructions too.
It is of course possible that it's not the immobiliser, but the circuits are easy enough to test, PM me for Steve_D's brilliant circuit diagrams.
The other bits are well covered in this thread - my journey started with a crumbling hot start kit - on page 7, you'll see the bits used to replace:
Hot start kit relay & wiring
Starter motor solenoid wire
Starter motor feeder cable
Add an earth directly from engine block to battery negative (best spot is using a starter motor mounting bolt, I did it slightly differently due to what I had to hand)
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Seems to be a common topic on here and on Facebook in the last couple of months!
It is a well known failure point.
Especially if you have a Meta alarm, because of the way TVR wired it.
I have the older Foxguard unit in my '95 Chim, and the immobiliser internal relay was failing to pull in, so I was getting fuel pump prime, but no starter motor.
It's very easy to bypass it to test that theory.
The instructions are on a Pistonheads post somewhere, and a number of us have the instructions too.
It is of course possible that it's not the immobiliser, but the circuits are easy enough to test, PM me for Steve_D's brilliant circuit diagrams.
The other bits are well covered in this thread - my journey started with a crumbling hot start kit - on page 7, you'll see the bits used to replace:
Hot start kit relay & wiring
Starter motor solenoid wire
Starter motor feeder cable
Add an earth directly from engine block to battery negative (best spot is using a starter motor mounting bolt, I did it slightly differently due to what I had to hand)
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Seems to be a common topic on here and on Facebook in the last couple of months!
They're also both to do with the ECU / fuel cct. There is NO starter relay. Unless you add one....
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=16...
The photo and diagram in the thread above is what I've done.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=16...
The photo and diagram in the thread above is what I've done.
Work backwards with a fault like this, get yourself a 12 volt test lamp and test at the solenoid terminal whilst in the crank position.
It's not uncommon for the terminal on the solenoid to become loose or corroded leading to a poor connection.
If you have the hot start kit fitted it will be found dangling near the battery, you should be able to identify it as it will look shoddier than Tvrs wiring, which is pretty difficult.
It's not uncommon for the terminal on the solenoid to become loose or corroded leading to a poor connection.
If you have the hot start kit fitted it will be found dangling near the battery, you should be able to identify it as it will look shoddier than Tvrs wiring, which is pretty difficult.
I had ‘exactly’ the same problem a month ago - could hear the fuel pump going but then nothing. I’m not technical & don’t enjoy knackling, no good ever comes of it for me, so I called my local specialist & they said it was almost certainly either battery related or immobiliser related (starter motor solenoid).
I called out the AA to get me started, was an amusing & plain talking young South African feller who’d never had a call out to a TVR before. Spent a while trying to figure it out, quickly established that it wasn’t the battery (but he wasn’t too impressed with location of it or the wiring…) Jacked the car up on the front drivers side & he tried to get power directly to the starter, said bluntly “yer starta mota is facked”! He got me tow started me & I drove it straight to the specialist, praying that I didn’t stall it. Was the starter motor, which wasn’t too expensive, was about £170 + an hours labour.
These cars are getting on a bit & things fail, but also their way of telling us that they need to be used a bit more!
I’ve never had starter problems until now, but I have noticed that since the starter’s been replaced it doesn’t like starting immediately after its had a good run out. Seems to need a few minutes before I can start it again. I guess that this is ‘the hot start issue’, so I need to find out what needs to be done about that.
I called out the AA to get me started, was an amusing & plain talking young South African feller who’d never had a call out to a TVR before. Spent a while trying to figure it out, quickly established that it wasn’t the battery (but he wasn’t too impressed with location of it or the wiring…) Jacked the car up on the front drivers side & he tried to get power directly to the starter, said bluntly “yer starta mota is facked”! He got me tow started me & I drove it straight to the specialist, praying that I didn’t stall it. Was the starter motor, which wasn’t too expensive, was about £170 + an hours labour.
These cars are getting on a bit & things fail, but also their way of telling us that they need to be used a bit more!
I’ve never had starter problems until now, but I have noticed that since the starter’s been replaced it doesn’t like starting immediately after its had a good run out. Seems to need a few minutes before I can start it again. I guess that this is ‘the hot start issue’, so I need to find out what needs to be done about that.
I sufferred exactly the same symptoms and was told that it was the hot start relay on my old Chim (pictured) and sure enough when it was replaced the car rumbled into life. I'm not as technically minded as most of the above chaps on here (so hopefully I'm not giving you a bum steer), but if you can find anything that looks remotely like it in your wiring loom and replace the relay its a quick cheap simple fix which I hope works for you.
The Three D Mucketeer said:
Swap the two relays (Brown maybe black) with each other ,under the passenger side and see what happens ... Just a simple test ....They are nearly 30 years old ...
They're both the same spec
Thanks very much for your help everyone! It means a lot and is so helpful. Ok this is everything I have in the passenger footwell...They're both the same spec
And
In the first pic you can see the two small silver cube Bosch relays - these were the only ones that looked interchangeable - I swapped these, but still nothing. So it could also be the starter? Cripes...I haven't had a chance to try all the (excellent) advice on this thread yet, I'll let everyone know if I (ever) find the cause. Gutted because I was going to insure it from tomorrow
Hopefully we can help chaps, it sounds like you all need to investigate these steps first:
- Starter motor is working - if you don't know, it's on the bottom of the engine, driver side, google it and you'll see various photos
- Voltage going to the starter motor solenoid when turning the ignition key (immobiliser disarmed)
- Voltage going to starter motor (same situation)
To do this you will need to get under the car - axle stands (not just the jack), or better ramps, lift or a pit.
Make sure the car is in neutral, but also pull the king lead from your coil to make sure the engine doesn't leap into life, especially if it's an intermittent fault.
Then a direct 12V to the starter motor solenoid to see if it triggers the starter motor - this is the small spade connector, not the big red cable connector - easiest way is a wire with a female spade connector on one end pushed onto the starter motor spade, then the other end directly to the battery positive (consider using your other car's battery for this, so you're not having to get in the awkward footwell).
If it works, move on voltage checks with a multi-meter - you're looking for 12V or slightly more. Probably need a helper unless you've got long multimeter leads.
If no voltage, the possible fail points are a few:
- Starter relay in footwell nest (already swapped)
- Immobiliser starter relay/circuit (this sends voltage to the starter motor solenoid)
- Hot start kit broken down (mine did, but it wasn't the only problem I had) - only relevant if you have one
- Earthing around the car (one version is just a clean-up job, but you need to locate the earth bolts on the chassis and back of engine (again google this), the other is add another earth)
- Starter motor feeder big red cable (usually only a problem when cable is hot and resistance increases)
I'd definitely start with the earthing clean up, but chances are it's the immobiliser, which can be bypassed, and it costs nothing to do as a temporary measure to test it.
It only costs a half decent paper clip.
If you establish that's the issue, then you can either (in ascending order of cost):
- Add a more permanent and fused bypass (I did this, cost less than a tenner)
- Send the alarm unit to Bridgewater Electronics to check it over and possibly repair (this is possible on my Foxguard unit, cost was quoted to me last week at £25 plus VAT and carriage)
- Replace the alarm system - I spoke with Carl Baker, who can do it for around £750-800, I haven't asked Dave at HT-Solutions for a cost on this task but he is at least permanently based in the UK
I would also strongly recommend adding a relay to the starter motor solenoid circuit, either by replacing the hot start kit with an uprated version, add a fuse, and run a slightly bigger wire to the starter motor solenoid. If no hot start kit, add one from scratch, again the instructions are out there.
And finally, whilst you're in there, run a thicker starter motor feeder cable (I went to 50mm2) from battery positive to the starter motor, and add an earth cable directly from the battery negative to the engine block (best spot is one of the starter motor mounting bolts) - this is harder due to the routing of the cable, but if you do both the relay and this, the route is the same, and the old starter motor cable provides the path to pull through.
This will reliably do away with any hot start issues...
I'm very happy to chat anyone through it if they would like.
- Starter motor is working - if you don't know, it's on the bottom of the engine, driver side, google it and you'll see various photos
- Voltage going to the starter motor solenoid when turning the ignition key (immobiliser disarmed)
- Voltage going to starter motor (same situation)
To do this you will need to get under the car - axle stands (not just the jack), or better ramps, lift or a pit.
Make sure the car is in neutral, but also pull the king lead from your coil to make sure the engine doesn't leap into life, especially if it's an intermittent fault.
Then a direct 12V to the starter motor solenoid to see if it triggers the starter motor - this is the small spade connector, not the big red cable connector - easiest way is a wire with a female spade connector on one end pushed onto the starter motor spade, then the other end directly to the battery positive (consider using your other car's battery for this, so you're not having to get in the awkward footwell).
If it works, move on voltage checks with a multi-meter - you're looking for 12V or slightly more. Probably need a helper unless you've got long multimeter leads.
If no voltage, the possible fail points are a few:
- Starter relay in footwell nest (already swapped)
- Immobiliser starter relay/circuit (this sends voltage to the starter motor solenoid)
- Hot start kit broken down (mine did, but it wasn't the only problem I had) - only relevant if you have one
- Earthing around the car (one version is just a clean-up job, but you need to locate the earth bolts on the chassis and back of engine (again google this), the other is add another earth)
- Starter motor feeder big red cable (usually only a problem when cable is hot and resistance increases)
I'd definitely start with the earthing clean up, but chances are it's the immobiliser, which can be bypassed, and it costs nothing to do as a temporary measure to test it.
It only costs a half decent paper clip.
If you establish that's the issue, then you can either (in ascending order of cost):
- Add a more permanent and fused bypass (I did this, cost less than a tenner)
- Send the alarm unit to Bridgewater Electronics to check it over and possibly repair (this is possible on my Foxguard unit, cost was quoted to me last week at £25 plus VAT and carriage)
- Replace the alarm system - I spoke with Carl Baker, who can do it for around £750-800, I haven't asked Dave at HT-Solutions for a cost on this task but he is at least permanently based in the UK
I would also strongly recommend adding a relay to the starter motor solenoid circuit, either by replacing the hot start kit with an uprated version, add a fuse, and run a slightly bigger wire to the starter motor solenoid. If no hot start kit, add one from scratch, again the instructions are out there.
And finally, whilst you're in there, run a thicker starter motor feeder cable (I went to 50mm2) from battery positive to the starter motor, and add an earth cable directly from the battery negative to the engine block (best spot is one of the starter motor mounting bolts) - this is harder due to the routing of the cable, but if you do both the relay and this, the route is the same, and the old starter motor cable provides the path to pull through.
This will reliably do away with any hot start issues...
I'm very happy to chat anyone through it if they would like.
d worked on my sticky starter relay a few timesGassing Station | Chimaera | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff