Discussion
With my car hopefully only a couple of weeks away I need to get a couple of crash helmets. Never having needed to own one of these before I'm at a bit of a loss to know where to start so can you guys help me out?
Is there any real difference between bike helmets (from a bike shop say) and the ones from Demon Tweeks or Grand Prix Racewear? As I'm not planning on ever buying a bike is there something specifically suitable for Atom use? Do I need to look for any sort of safety approvals/fire retardant standards for use on track days?
Thanks
Nick
>> Edited by atomic on Monday 9th May 09:33
Is there any real difference between bike helmets (from a bike shop say) and the ones from Demon Tweeks or Grand Prix Racewear? As I'm not planning on ever buying a bike is there something specifically suitable for Atom use? Do I need to look for any sort of safety approvals/fire retardant standards for use on track days?
Thanks
Nick
>> Edited by atomic on Monday 9th May 09:33
I think that the car specific helmets have thicker visors than bike ones also they tend to have a smaller visor apeture thus reduced visibility. I seem to recall the car specific ones are not road legal because of this but don't take that as gospel and besides who is going to check.
Ben
Ben
atomic said:
Is there any real difference between bike helmets (from a bike shop say) and the ones from Demon Tweeks or Grand Prix Racewear? As I'm not planning on ever buying a bike is there something specifically suitable for Atom use? Do I need to look for any sort of safety approvals/fire retardant standards for use on track days?
As you don't have a bike, and if you've not got the bubble screens, I'd strongly advise getting a lid with a chin spoiler. At higher speeds on straights your helmet can feel like it's going to rip your head off your neck! Chin spoilers allow the airflow to work in your favour. These are usually only available from GPR/Demon Tweeks type shops. They're about the same price as decent bike lids. On track days, no one minds what sort of approvals your lid has, so long as you have a lid.
Oh, and to those who asked why my visor doesn't mist up, it's called Fog City and I've been using them and swearing by them for years. They cost between £10 and £30 depending on your helmet and visor shape.
And here's the website to learn more: www.modernworld.com
>> Edited by Bruce Fielding on Monday 9th May 11:35
A few of my own thoughts.
The only reason I wear a helmet is to stop the flies and stones etc. Therefore I didn't put much value behind the saying 'if you have a 10 dollar head then buy a 10 dollar helmet'. If I was racing or bike riding then I WOULD buy the safest most expensive helmet I couldn't afford.
I bought a bike helmet because they have better visability than the car version and this was the BIG reason for doing so. I didn't want restricted vision. Other minor reasons are they are cheaper and have a better range of styles and fit.
Personally I don't find the wind rips my head off enough to justify buying a chin spoilered car version. I'm 6ft2in so guess I sit fairly high up.
Hope this helps.
Stew
The only reason I wear a helmet is to stop the flies and stones etc. Therefore I didn't put much value behind the saying 'if you have a 10 dollar head then buy a 10 dollar helmet'. If I was racing or bike riding then I WOULD buy the safest most expensive helmet I couldn't afford.
I bought a bike helmet because they have better visability than the car version and this was the BIG reason for doing so. I didn't want restricted vision. Other minor reasons are they are cheaper and have a better range of styles and fit.
Personally I don't find the wind rips my head off enough to justify buying a chin spoilered car version. I'm 6ft2in so guess I sit fairly high up.
Hope this helps.
Stew
I've got two helmets - a cheap £35 bike helmet for passengers, and an Arai GP5 for me, which cost slightly more. Although the difference in strength isn't an issue in the Atom (although some cheap bike helmets have come out VERY well in recent tests) - the biggest difference I find is in sound insulation. The GP5 just fits so much better than any other helmet I've ever had or tried, and as a result seems to insulate against sound better than anything else. I've never had to use ear-plugs in either a Mk1 or Mk2 car. The GP5 also seems to be pretty good at resisting lift - though you can still feel it once you get above the ton!
Helmet fit has got to be at least ten times as important as the helmet itself!
Helmet fit has got to be at least ten times as important as the helmet itself!
benyeats said:Yeah, my helmet isn't road legal for a bike - but I know what I'd prefer to be wearing in a crash - so its car helmet all the way for me!
I think that the car specific helmets have thicker visors than bike ones also they tend to have a smaller visor apeture thus reduced visibility. I seem to recall the car specific ones are not road legal because of this but don't take that as gospel and besides who is going to check.
Bruce Almightly said:Most Arai car helmets now have the option of an anti-fog coating on the inside of the visor - I've got one that's about 3 years old, and has been used in more wet, mucky kart races than I care to remember, and the anti-fog-iness still works fine. Well worth specifying when buying a new visor.
and to those who asked why my visor doesn't mist up, it's called Fog City and I've been using them and swearing by them for years. They cost between £10 and £30 depending on your helmet and visor shape.
atom120 said:
I think that the car specific helmets have thicker visors than bike ones also they tend to have a smaller visor apeture thus reduced visibility. I seem to recall the car specific ones are not road legal because of this but don't take that as gospel and besides who is going to check.
Yeah, my helmet isn't road legal for a bike - but I know what I'd prefer to be wearing in a crash - so its car helmet all the way for me!
Sorry for asking technical ish stuff on the forum but...can anyone elaborate on the reasoning for the design difference between bike and car helmets. It seems to me that instinctively bike helmets should be stronger as you are more likely to be thrown into the air than in a car. Or is the reasoning a car is heavier than a bike if it lands on your head ?
Ben
I think its purely down to different bodies defining the safety rules but also the type of accident changes e.g. thown in the air or whiplash/fire. I think the cut of the helmet at the back of the neck is different.
I like you, would have thought the bike helmet would safer than one designed for a car.
This may help:
www.roadfly.org/magazine/14/helmet_guide.1.html
Stew
I like you, would have thought the bike helmet would safer than one designed for a car.
This may help:
www.roadfly.org/magazine/14/helmet_guide.1.html
Stew
I won't repeat stuff, but:
- Fit, fit, fit, fit. The single biggest thing that matters in a helmet. A cheap well-fitting helmet is safer than an expensive badly fitting one.
- Bike vs. car. Designed for different purposes: Full-face car helmets have a smaller aperture with a thicker visor, because you are much lower to the ground and are more likely to be hit by debris or parts of your car as it smashes itself to pieces with you strapped firmly in it. They also introduced the aero-shaping: this is pretty much up to you as to whether it makes a difference. If you can, try one with and one without (not easy!) - I prefer with in the Atom, although the liquorice allsorts one is not an aero. Designed mostly for open race cars, so head articulation is less than on bike helmets, since you are in a fixed position (this is a marginal safety benefit). They have more compression protection (padding) and thinner shells with less puncture protection than bike lids (you ain't likely to be skidding down the road in one). Bike: larger aperture, since peripheral vision is so much more important, more cut away at the back to allow better articulation (but lets more noise in). Usually have more vents etc., mostly for styling reasons. Often have quick-change visor mechs, which is less common on car ones.
- Standards: there are bike and car ones.
- Bike: ACU gold and silver are the main standards. Get a gold one, since there is little, if any, cost difference and they are definitely safer. There is a Snell standard too, but all bike helmets sold in the UK have to have BSI standards, so ignore Snell ones. Ignore the BSI standards, and look for the ACU ones, which are tougher.
- Car: MSA and Snell standards are both acceptable for UK racing. If you need to check one, email me, since they are more complex. You can bag a real bargain if you find one, and want to, by buying a 1985 standard lid, which are not acceptable for racing as of this year in the UK, but only if you are certain you won't want to race. Perfectly good lids still and no racers buying them any more.
- Anti-fog. I must have hot breath or something, since I have never found the Arai anti-fog coating much use, but we are all different. I have Fog Citys in a clear visor for all the full-face helmets I have; dark / iridium visors, I rely on the anti-fog coating.
Hope that's helpful. Overall, you must try them on, don't buy mail order unless you know exactly what you want in which size. For what its worth, I use an Arai RX-7IV most in the Atom (which is a top-of-the range bike lid); mostly because I want to protect my race lid (which is a Bell lid designed specifically for closed car racing). I have a number of other lids (I don't throw them away either) for bikes and cars from many years of use, but you should ignore what is comfy for me and go and try a load of different lids on.
MC
- Fit, fit, fit, fit. The single biggest thing that matters in a helmet. A cheap well-fitting helmet is safer than an expensive badly fitting one.
- Bike vs. car. Designed for different purposes: Full-face car helmets have a smaller aperture with a thicker visor, because you are much lower to the ground and are more likely to be hit by debris or parts of your car as it smashes itself to pieces with you strapped firmly in it. They also introduced the aero-shaping: this is pretty much up to you as to whether it makes a difference. If you can, try one with and one without (not easy!) - I prefer with in the Atom, although the liquorice allsorts one is not an aero. Designed mostly for open race cars, so head articulation is less than on bike helmets, since you are in a fixed position (this is a marginal safety benefit). They have more compression protection (padding) and thinner shells with less puncture protection than bike lids (you ain't likely to be skidding down the road in one). Bike: larger aperture, since peripheral vision is so much more important, more cut away at the back to allow better articulation (but lets more noise in). Usually have more vents etc., mostly for styling reasons. Often have quick-change visor mechs, which is less common on car ones.
- Standards: there are bike and car ones.
- Bike: ACU gold and silver are the main standards. Get a gold one, since there is little, if any, cost difference and they are definitely safer. There is a Snell standard too, but all bike helmets sold in the UK have to have BSI standards, so ignore Snell ones. Ignore the BSI standards, and look for the ACU ones, which are tougher.
- Car: MSA and Snell standards are both acceptable for UK racing. If you need to check one, email me, since they are more complex. You can bag a real bargain if you find one, and want to, by buying a 1985 standard lid, which are not acceptable for racing as of this year in the UK, but only if you are certain you won't want to race. Perfectly good lids still and no racers buying them any more.
- Anti-fog. I must have hot breath or something, since I have never found the Arai anti-fog coating much use, but we are all different. I have Fog Citys in a clear visor for all the full-face helmets I have; dark / iridium visors, I rely on the anti-fog coating.
Hope that's helpful. Overall, you must try them on, don't buy mail order unless you know exactly what you want in which size. For what its worth, I use an Arai RX-7IV most in the Atom (which is a top-of-the range bike lid); mostly because I want to protect my race lid (which is a Bell lid designed specifically for closed car racing). I have a number of other lids (I don't throw them away either) for bikes and cars from many years of use, but you should ignore what is comfy for me and go and try a load of different lids on.
MC
Nick
Last week I was in the same situation as you, having to buy a helmet for the first time for the Atom. Like you, I did some internet research (a lot of which was contradicting!). I have some chums that take their crates hill climbing and also chums who are bikers. I canvassed their opinion and the common advice was the same as Meyrick says here: Fit, fit, fit! For my anticipated use (75% road / 25% track) I opted for a bike lid. I went to my local 'Hien Gericke' with one of my biking chums and tried LOADS of helmets. The geezer from the shop was helpfull & patient & gave advice when it was needed.
I couldn't believe the amount of variation between brands & sizes. I was willing to spend a fair bit of cash but in the end I ended up with a relatively cheap (sub £100) AGV. Quite simply it fit better on my particular head than any of the others I tried, regardless of cost. It had the Gold standard too.
I'm not saying you should go buy an AGV, but you should try as many as you can. Don't automatically discount cheaper helmets or either bike or car helmets. As I see it, It's rather like trying on a pair of trousers from, erm, NEXT let's say, then trying on a pair of Paul Smith's. Same size, same cut, but one seems to just fit better than the other...And the better fit may not nescessarily be the more expensive pair.
Last week I was in the same situation as you, having to buy a helmet for the first time for the Atom. Like you, I did some internet research (a lot of which was contradicting!). I have some chums that take their crates hill climbing and also chums who are bikers. I canvassed their opinion and the common advice was the same as Meyrick says here: Fit, fit, fit! For my anticipated use (75% road / 25% track) I opted for a bike lid. I went to my local 'Hien Gericke' with one of my biking chums and tried LOADS of helmets. The geezer from the shop was helpfull & patient & gave advice when it was needed.
I couldn't believe the amount of variation between brands & sizes. I was willing to spend a fair bit of cash but in the end I ended up with a relatively cheap (sub £100) AGV. Quite simply it fit better on my particular head than any of the others I tried, regardless of cost. It had the Gold standard too.
I'm not saying you should go buy an AGV, but you should try as many as you can. Don't automatically discount cheaper helmets or either bike or car helmets. As I see it, It's rather like trying on a pair of trousers from, erm, NEXT let's say, then trying on a pair of Paul Smith's. Same size, same cut, but one seems to just fit better than the other...And the better fit may not nescessarily be the more expensive pair.
I am regreating buying my helemt as I was badly advised in the shop, having never worn a helmet before when asked "Is it a tight fit" I said "Yes"....., but it has turned out to be very loose and I will now be going back to buy something else. I actually wore my daughters helmet at Bigthunder on Saturday and it was fantastic no lift at all. An ill fitting helmet will let the air get into the helmet and it just tries to rip it off you head and it is very uncomfortable. If you have never worn one before make sure it feels really tight the padding will always "give" a little. MAKE SURE IT IS TOOOOOO TIGHT.
Should have mentioned in my previous how to check fit. I have seen a good Arai and good Shoei guides on this, which may be on their websites, but I'll paraphrase what I can remember:
- it should be a tight squeeze to get on. Bike lids should be rolled on from the front, rather than pushed down from on top. Car lids more the latter
- no obvious pressure points on your temples or whatever. Even support all the way round. Front, side, top, back.
- open the visor and hold the chin bar firmly. You should not be able to move your head at all. Not a bit. Not even a little bit.
- the padding will give over the first month or so, so it should feel slightly compressive all round - too tight
- many of the more expensive lids can be fitted with different cheek and rear pads. Certainly the top few Arais, Shoeis and Bells do. Ask if the helmet you are trying on has that option. Ask for different sized pads to try out. If the shop doesn't have them go to a different shop. On my Arai RX7 IV, I have larger than standard cheek pads (for the full chipmunk effect) and smaller than standard rear pads (to allow space for my android-shaped head). Similar on my Bell race lid.
- ask what size shells there are, Arai and Bell do five different shell sizes and seven or eight helmet sizes. The shell is the hard outer bit, the helmet size is the space for your head. If you are between two sizes i.e. L and XL, the larger shell size will have more padding and polystyrene, which is inherently a little safer, but will compress more as you wear it, so needs to be tighter initially.
- chin strap should be easy to do up and undo. Tighten the strap with your mouth open
- ask them to show you the operation of all the vents
- check you can open, close and lock the visor easily
- ask them to show you how to change the visor
- buy a dark and clear visor (I usually buy spares as well) at the time. Don't buy road-legal tinted bike visors. For some bizarre reason you are only allowed a 25% tint and the powers that be think that it is safer to put shades inside a helmet than use a proper dark visor, so they do very little. Get a proper 50%+ dark visor from www.thevisorshop.com instead.
Best place to try lids on is at bike or race car shows. Then you have all the manufacturers present and you can go and try them on with people who really know what they are talking about them fitting them for you. If that fails, GPR, Motorcycle City, Hein Gericke or the like are usually well stocked and patient.
Don't compromise at all on fit and if you aren't sure walk away. Wholly agree with John, price and fit are almost entirely unconnected. Ignore the pretty graphics on the outside, you can always get them painted (usually about £250-300) if you want (I do!).
Looking after them:
- always ask for a cotton bag with the helmet, they will usually chuck it in free
- keep the helmet in it. Always
- if you can, get a proper helmet bag. Demon Thieves (such as code GPRHB) and GPR (www.gprdirect.com, code GPR 308-1, same thing but cheaper) both do them for £15-30.
- Keep out of sunlight except when wearing them
- Never ever drop them. Best place to put helmets not in use is on the floor or in a cupboard (best, since you can't kick them there)
- Replace them after about 5 years
- Clean the inside with shampoo and a shower every six months or so. Don't worry about getting it wet, they are designed to deal with sweat and rain, so hose it out properly. This avoids that nice familiar smell peculiar to your own helmet which welcomes you every time you put it on. It also means you look at it carefully. Leave it to dry naturally on a towel or a cake rack: do not put it by the fire, on the windowsill, radiator or what have you, although on something gentle like an Aga is fine.
- Be careful cleaning visors: scratch resistance is much better than it was, but soak flies etc (Autoglym do the best visor cleaner I have found) with an old flannel or dish cloth before cleaning them off. Remove the visor and use lots of water. If the visor has anti-fog coating check the manufacturers instructions, not all of them like being hosed.
- I always put a Fog City insert in one clear visor for each helmet (code FOGCX-2 at GPR), but some people find anti-fog coatings work. I don't.
MC
- it should be a tight squeeze to get on. Bike lids should be rolled on from the front, rather than pushed down from on top. Car lids more the latter
- no obvious pressure points on your temples or whatever. Even support all the way round. Front, side, top, back.
- open the visor and hold the chin bar firmly. You should not be able to move your head at all. Not a bit. Not even a little bit.
- the padding will give over the first month or so, so it should feel slightly compressive all round - too tight
- many of the more expensive lids can be fitted with different cheek and rear pads. Certainly the top few Arais, Shoeis and Bells do. Ask if the helmet you are trying on has that option. Ask for different sized pads to try out. If the shop doesn't have them go to a different shop. On my Arai RX7 IV, I have larger than standard cheek pads (for the full chipmunk effect) and smaller than standard rear pads (to allow space for my android-shaped head). Similar on my Bell race lid.
- ask what size shells there are, Arai and Bell do five different shell sizes and seven or eight helmet sizes. The shell is the hard outer bit, the helmet size is the space for your head. If you are between two sizes i.e. L and XL, the larger shell size will have more padding and polystyrene, which is inherently a little safer, but will compress more as you wear it, so needs to be tighter initially.
- chin strap should be easy to do up and undo. Tighten the strap with your mouth open
- ask them to show you the operation of all the vents
- check you can open, close and lock the visor easily
- ask them to show you how to change the visor
- buy a dark and clear visor (I usually buy spares as well) at the time. Don't buy road-legal tinted bike visors. For some bizarre reason you are only allowed a 25% tint and the powers that be think that it is safer to put shades inside a helmet than use a proper dark visor, so they do very little. Get a proper 50%+ dark visor from www.thevisorshop.com instead.
Best place to try lids on is at bike or race car shows. Then you have all the manufacturers present and you can go and try them on with people who really know what they are talking about them fitting them for you. If that fails, GPR, Motorcycle City, Hein Gericke or the like are usually well stocked and patient.
Don't compromise at all on fit and if you aren't sure walk away. Wholly agree with John, price and fit are almost entirely unconnected. Ignore the pretty graphics on the outside, you can always get them painted (usually about £250-300) if you want (I do!).
Looking after them:
- always ask for a cotton bag with the helmet, they will usually chuck it in free
- keep the helmet in it. Always
- if you can, get a proper helmet bag. Demon Thieves (such as code GPRHB) and GPR (www.gprdirect.com, code GPR 308-1, same thing but cheaper) both do them for £15-30.
- Keep out of sunlight except when wearing them
- Never ever drop them. Best place to put helmets not in use is on the floor or in a cupboard (best, since you can't kick them there)
- Replace them after about 5 years
- Clean the inside with shampoo and a shower every six months or so. Don't worry about getting it wet, they are designed to deal with sweat and rain, so hose it out properly. This avoids that nice familiar smell peculiar to your own helmet which welcomes you every time you put it on. It also means you look at it carefully. Leave it to dry naturally on a towel or a cake rack: do not put it by the fire, on the windowsill, radiator or what have you, although on something gentle like an Aga is fine.
- Be careful cleaning visors: scratch resistance is much better than it was, but soak flies etc (Autoglym do the best visor cleaner I have found) with an old flannel or dish cloth before cleaning them off. Remove the visor and use lots of water. If the visor has anti-fog coating check the manufacturers instructions, not all of them like being hosed.
- I always put a Fog City insert in one clear visor for each helmet (code FOGCX-2 at GPR), but some people find anti-fog coatings work. I don't.
MC
Mine was also an expensive mistake a Roof helment at about £215.00 ouch!
So don't waste your money on flash!!! Make sure it fits.
coxm, could you get your helmet care instructions posted to the club site?
>> Edited by John Lloyd on Tuesday 10th May 11:05
>> Edited by John Lloyd on Tuesday 10th May 11:54
So don't waste your money on flash!!! Make sure it fits.
coxm, could you get your helmet care instructions posted to the club site?
>> Edited by John Lloyd on Tuesday 10th May 11:05
>> Edited by John Lloyd on Tuesday 10th May 11:54
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