300bhp? Peanuts!
Discussion
Anyone know anything about this option?
www.tts-performance.com/civicsupercharged.php
www.ultravw.com/japanese_performance/powergames.html
According to Track and Race Cars, using the Hondata CPU and a Rotrex blower, they're achieving 346bhp (390bhp at the fly)
Apparently it delivers the power exponentially, so you get 25% more power at 4000rpm, and 125% more at 8500rpm. This translates as an extra 12bhp at 3000rpm, 30bhp at 4000rpm, 90bhp at 6000rpm, and 160bhp at 8000rpm. Mmm - smooth!
Downside is it's quite quiet - you don't get the banshee wail of the Jackson... but it's bloody quick and really manageable.
www.tts-performance.com/civicsupercharged.php
www.ultravw.com/japanese_performance/powergames.html
According to Track and Race Cars, using the Hondata CPU and a Rotrex blower, they're achieving 346bhp (390bhp at the fly)
Apparently it delivers the power exponentially, so you get 25% more power at 4000rpm, and 125% more at 8500rpm. This translates as an extra 12bhp at 3000rpm, 30bhp at 4000rpm, 90bhp at 6000rpm, and 160bhp at 8000rpm. Mmm - smooth!
Downside is it's quite quiet - you don't get the banshee wail of the Jackson... but it's bloody quick and really manageable.
I think any Honda engine can get a lot more hp that could be expected from it. It's just a case of where you draw the line between speed and manageability. I think Ariel did the right thing by using the Jackson 'charger for 80bhp extra (for production models) although I personally would love to have a 400+ Atom 
I guess that it's probably possible with the right internals.
Has anyone ever fitted a nitrosoxide kit to an Atom? That could give you another 80-100 bhp with some minor tweaks and isn't too stupid if you get a direct port injection system from a decent installer. I've spoken to a few of them and there's loads of saftey devices and stuff built in to make sure you don't toast your internals. It's a bit "The Fast and The Furious" though, but it's very cheap power. Although £70 for 14 minutes of giggle gas is a little crazy if you like it switched on for the journey to work, and it's an extra 5-7Kg.
I guess that it's probably possible with the right internals. Has anyone ever fitted a nitrosoxide kit to an Atom? That could give you another 80-100 bhp with some minor tweaks and isn't too stupid if you get a direct port injection system from a decent installer. I've spoken to a few of them and there's loads of saftey devices and stuff built in to make sure you don't toast your internals. It's a bit "The Fast and The Furious" though, but it's very cheap power. Although £70 for 14 minutes of giggle gas is a little crazy if you like it switched on for the journey to work, and it's an extra 5-7Kg.
Rotrex : I have read all on the website of this company, nice technology.
Concerning the K20A engine push to 342Hp, there is a mystake somewhere about the pressure : they write 13 lb !
2 solutions :
. it's 1.3lb so 0.59bars and in this case it's similar to the JR one used in the Atom : 9psi so 0.62bars. In this case, the rotrex is a good product because it gives 42hp more with the same pressure (and with same hondata product). But this is not possible to obtain such power difference with same pressure even with the intercooler.
. So , more probably, they want to say 13psi, that's 0.90 bars with a high pressure considering the initial pressure in this Honda engine...
And, it is possible to increase the JR pressure to till 13 or 15 psi and obtain the same power.
Buying a JR supercharger directly in USA for an Atom ?you can try and you'll spend more money then Ariel factory cost to find all the good components because it's not a standard kit ... parts are coming from different JR Kit .... Not a good idea to my opinion.
JP
Concerning the K20A engine push to 342Hp, there is a mystake somewhere about the pressure : they write 13 lb !
2 solutions :
. it's 1.3lb so 0.59bars and in this case it's similar to the JR one used in the Atom : 9psi so 0.62bars. In this case, the rotrex is a good product because it gives 42hp more with the same pressure (and with same hondata product). But this is not possible to obtain such power difference with same pressure even with the intercooler.
. So , more probably, they want to say 13psi, that's 0.90 bars with a high pressure considering the initial pressure in this Honda engine...
And, it is possible to increase the JR pressure to till 13 or 15 psi and obtain the same power.
Buying a JR supercharger directly in USA for an Atom ?you can try and you'll spend more money then Ariel factory cost to find all the good components because it's not a standard kit ... parts are coming from different JR Kit .... Not a good idea to my opinion.
JP
I hear that although the Rotrex delivers the power, it doesn't look as well put together as the Jackson. Also there could be backup issues. There have been other threads on here about DIY Jackson, and the consensus seems to be that all things being equal it's best left to the factory, despite being slightly more expensive.
Yes, Rotrex is a turbo with a rotation made by a mechanical gear system instead of by the exhaust line. So it's efficacity is much more similar to a Eaton compressor (no turbo lag and low revs power to) than to a classic turbo.
But whatever the system, it's the pressure (and temperature) difference which can make the power difference on a same engine.
JP
But whatever the system, it's the pressure (and temperature) difference which can make the power difference on a same engine.
JP
EVYEVO said:
Is an eaton the same as what Id call a roots type blower. 2 counter roating compressors?
Im intreaged by the Rotrex, Surly it cant be spinning at normal turbo RPM's can it?
I don't understand a word of this but you might...
www.rotrex.com/
apparently I'll handle up to 250,000rpm
EVYEVO said:
Is an eaton the same as what Id call a roots type blower. 2 counter roating compressors?
Im intreaged by the Rotrex, Surly it cant be spinning at normal turbo RPM's can it?
The roots charger, made by Eaton, is a great charger!!! It’s much better than these centripetal chargers that Jackson use!
There are 3 types of chargers:
Centripetal
Screw
Roots
I have the roots, and it is great at producing loads of torque. It only spins at a maximum of 14,000 rpm, but at 8psi it produces an amazing power curve. The downside to the roots is the thermal efficiency, which is why I’ve had to spend loads on cooling the charge prior to the inlet manifold.
The screw is slightly different to that of the roots, but runs on a similar principle, however its thermal efficiency is superior to that of the roots. Merc use this for their cars.
The last is the centripetal, its got a great thermal efficiency which is why you don’t need to run intercoolers, but it doesn’t do much for the torque curve.
The JR looks more like a roots/screw type thing to me; see www.jacksonracing.com/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=33372
Elsewhere in the JR site they mention using Eaton parts.
Superchargers lesson 101 here www.superchargersonline.com/content.asp?id=15 also lists JR as external compression roots/screw type.
Agreed that this will result in higher intake temp, and the Ariel installation has no intercooler, but maybe they just had to live with it due to lack of space?
Elsewhere in the JR site they mention using Eaton parts.
Superchargers lesson 101 here www.superchargersonline.com/content.asp?id=15 also lists JR as external compression roots/screw type.
Agreed that this will result in higher intake temp, and the Ariel installation has no intercooler, but maybe they just had to live with it due to lack of space?
Also, Eaton use screw compressors, see http://automotive.eaton.com/product/engine_controls/superchargers/whysuperchargers.asp
As you say, these are more thermally efficient than a traditional roots. I don't claim to understand the thermo and fluid dynamics going on here, but a wild guess is that meshing two helical threads will result in less friction/noise/heat than straight-cut cogs - like in gearboxes?
As you say, these are more thermally efficient than a traditional roots. I don't claim to understand the thermo and fluid dynamics going on here, but a wild guess is that meshing two helical threads will result in less friction/noise/heat than straight-cut cogs - like in gearboxes?
Atom 290 : The Jackson is an Eaton, nothing else and the Atom has no heat problem since they had added an electric water pump.
It's possible to put an intercooler in an Atom just on the top of the engine and in this case the actual air intake is used to cool this radiator.
The Air filter has to be put on the left side of the car with a 60cm lenght straight tube from the engine air-intake. Not difficult to do.
It's possible to put an intercooler in an Atom just on the top of the engine and in this case the actual air intake is used to cool this radiator.
The Air filter has to be put on the left side of the car with a 60cm lenght straight tube from the engine air-intake. Not difficult to do.
monza said:
Atom 290 : The Jackson is an Eaton, nothing else and the Atom has no heat problem since they had added an electric water pump.
It's possible to put an intercooler in an Atom just on the top of the engine and in this case the actual air intake is used to cool this radiator.
The Air filter has to be put on the left side of the car with a 60cm lenght straight tube from the engine air-intake. Not difficult to do.
OK I didn’t mean an intercooler as it is difficult to get the frontal area, so you need to use a charge cooler...air to water to air cooling.
As said I can see that the Jackson is an Eaton. The manufacturer wasn’t in question, what was, was the type of charger, and I thought they used a centripetal charger, but it turns out that they use a roots.
The fact Ariel use an electric water pump is irrelevant, that controls the water that flows around the engine, and plays little or no effect to that of the inlet temperatures. As I said in my previous post, the roots suffers from poor thermal efficiency. The air coming from the charger is obviously going to be heated due to the fact it is being compressed. However I can but assume they aren’t actually producing that much boost as they aren’t using any form of charge cooling.
If the JR is similar (the same?) to an Eaton M45, 9psi would equate to a peak increase in intake temp of about 160 degrees f (see the graph here http://automotive.eaton.com/product/engine_controls/superchargers/M45.asp ) if it revs up to 14k.
So I guess the JR tweaks to the basic Eaton design reduce temps a bit, it isn't rev'ed to 14k, or 160f increase is manageable?
So I guess the JR tweaks to the basic Eaton design reduce temps a bit, it isn't rev'ed to 14k, or 160f increase is manageable?
Heat question :
as Ariel had some water heat difficulties with the firsts supercharged, i was thinking you had the same problem. Now it's ok with this supplementary electrical pump.
I know that this has nothing to do with air intake temperature...
Intercooler :
the word is perhaps not the good one but it's a Air-Air cooler that i was thinking about and it's possible to fit a good size one, up the actual air intake manifold and engine. Like the new Lotus 240 one or like the Rotrex one.
Boost :
JR can go up to 13psi (instead of 9psi on the Atom, you only change a pulley) with no cooler but it's clear that it's not good for engine durability... The best way to put more air is to increase its density so reduice its temp.
Rotrex speed :
because of their special gear system they announce very high rotation speed, as a classic turbo.
JP
as Ariel had some water heat difficulties with the firsts supercharged, i was thinking you had the same problem. Now it's ok with this supplementary electrical pump.
I know that this has nothing to do with air intake temperature...
Intercooler :
the word is perhaps not the good one but it's a Air-Air cooler that i was thinking about and it's possible to fit a good size one, up the actual air intake manifold and engine. Like the new Lotus 240 one or like the Rotrex one.
Boost :
JR can go up to 13psi (instead of 9psi on the Atom, you only change a pulley) with no cooler but it's clear that it's not good for engine durability... The best way to put more air is to increase its density so reduice its temp.
Rotrex speed :
because of their special gear system they announce very high rotation speed, as a classic turbo.
JP
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