DynoDay - Venting my thoughts!
Discussion
Ok... Dyno day... I’ve kept my lid on for over a week... (Please take the time to read this and add any valid comments.)
Firstly, again I would like to mention that I had a really great day, and must thank Baz again for organising it and Sam for sorting the food.
It was really great to see people again, and also great to be able to put faces to names of those I hadn’t yet met...
But... There is one thing which has been really bothering me since this event, which maybe I'm over-reacting about, but I’m going to vent it anyway..
Here's my problem...
The Viper world is pretty small, we have very few members and there are ultimately very few cars in the country, so when someone has a car up for sale, we tend to find out about it.
For instance... (Let’s set the scene)
On the weekend of the Goodwood American Breakfast Meet, a friend of ours here on the forums went to a Harley Show in Brighton, and happens to spot a 94 RT/10 with a Supercharger for sale at £38k... Now as far as I'm aware, there's only one of those in the UK that we are aware of, and the owner of said car had been on the forums here asking for advice on SVA etc for a previous car only weeks earlier, which he had imported and sold, now it doesn't take Inspector Morse to deduce that, if someone imports and sells two cars in quick succession, they are probably dealing in cars. Now I have no problem with someone importing cars and selling them to make money, (apart from the obvious potential problem with an influx of Vipers having an affect on the values of cars already here), but I am having a couple of issues with regard to a dealer who is making money from selling vehicles, getting free advice from the club on how to import and SVA their cars and attempting to just look like an owner, which seems to be happening more and more frequently, (alright there are two of them, possibly over-reacting there).
I don't have a problem with a dealer turning up to an event such as the Dyno day with the intention of seeing what their car can do, but be honest about it and about who you are.
Am I the only one who thinks it's a bit off for someone to come along to a Viper event, who is not really a member, and for said person to walk away with a donated Trophy and Banner which was donated to the Club by other members? Especially when that person is selling these cars and appears to have no intention of keeping the vehicle, AND to make no effort to pop in to the forums in the following week to even say Thank you!
I know it’s a difficult one to judge as Membership is a bit of a grey area, as not everyone feels that they want to join the VCA for instance, (which is their call), and I don’t have a problem with this. I am certainly not meaning to alienate the Non-VCA members in anyway, as owners and members are all the same to me, and let’s face it, the passion for these cars is what brings us together. Also I do not mean to discourage any new owners/members from joining in with club events, at the end of the day I am pretty new myself… possibly I am rambling a bit… Moving on…
Now if I'm wrong and the person in question is keeping the vehicle, joining the club (so to speak, grey area as noted above), and possibly been on holiday for the past week (hence not having had a chance to pop in to say thanks) then my apologies go out to the person in question as I do not mean to alienate anyone if there are valid reasons for my issues… and hopefully if I am wrong then the person in question will accept my apology and be understanding of my concerns. But I know I am not on my own with my thoughts, and I think it’s only fair that we ask and maybe get an answer, and in the interests of the club it would only be fair that if our concerns are justified then the trophy and banner be returned to the rightful winner.
I would like to add that I personally would have had nothing to gain from this had the trophy and banner not gone in the direction that they did... Much as I would like to have seen the wife polishing that trophy and said banner hanging on the wall in my garage, sadly, although I was chuffed with my numbers, I wasn’t in the top end of the group, but I feel for those who it did affect and as I have said, I hope I'm wrong, but it's just wound me up a bit…
All the best
Dave
Rant over… thanks for reading…
Firstly, again I would like to mention that I had a really great day, and must thank Baz again for organising it and Sam for sorting the food.
It was really great to see people again, and also great to be able to put faces to names of those I hadn’t yet met...
But... There is one thing which has been really bothering me since this event, which maybe I'm over-reacting about, but I’m going to vent it anyway..
Here's my problem...
The Viper world is pretty small, we have very few members and there are ultimately very few cars in the country, so when someone has a car up for sale, we tend to find out about it.
For instance... (Let’s set the scene)
On the weekend of the Goodwood American Breakfast Meet, a friend of ours here on the forums went to a Harley Show in Brighton, and happens to spot a 94 RT/10 with a Supercharger for sale at £38k... Now as far as I'm aware, there's only one of those in the UK that we are aware of, and the owner of said car had been on the forums here asking for advice on SVA etc for a previous car only weeks earlier, which he had imported and sold, now it doesn't take Inspector Morse to deduce that, if someone imports and sells two cars in quick succession, they are probably dealing in cars. Now I have no problem with someone importing cars and selling them to make money, (apart from the obvious potential problem with an influx of Vipers having an affect on the values of cars already here), but I am having a couple of issues with regard to a dealer who is making money from selling vehicles, getting free advice from the club on how to import and SVA their cars and attempting to just look like an owner, which seems to be happening more and more frequently, (alright there are two of them, possibly over-reacting there).
I don't have a problem with a dealer turning up to an event such as the Dyno day with the intention of seeing what their car can do, but be honest about it and about who you are.
Am I the only one who thinks it's a bit off for someone to come along to a Viper event, who is not really a member, and for said person to walk away with a donated Trophy and Banner which was donated to the Club by other members? Especially when that person is selling these cars and appears to have no intention of keeping the vehicle, AND to make no effort to pop in to the forums in the following week to even say Thank you!
I know it’s a difficult one to judge as Membership is a bit of a grey area, as not everyone feels that they want to join the VCA for instance, (which is their call), and I don’t have a problem with this. I am certainly not meaning to alienate the Non-VCA members in anyway, as owners and members are all the same to me, and let’s face it, the passion for these cars is what brings us together. Also I do not mean to discourage any new owners/members from joining in with club events, at the end of the day I am pretty new myself… possibly I am rambling a bit… Moving on…
Now if I'm wrong and the person in question is keeping the vehicle, joining the club (so to speak, grey area as noted above), and possibly been on holiday for the past week (hence not having had a chance to pop in to say thanks) then my apologies go out to the person in question as I do not mean to alienate anyone if there are valid reasons for my issues… and hopefully if I am wrong then the person in question will accept my apology and be understanding of my concerns. But I know I am not on my own with my thoughts, and I think it’s only fair that we ask and maybe get an answer, and in the interests of the club it would only be fair that if our concerns are justified then the trophy and banner be returned to the rightful winner.
I would like to add that I personally would have had nothing to gain from this had the trophy and banner not gone in the direction that they did... Much as I would like to have seen the wife polishing that trophy and said banner hanging on the wall in my garage, sadly, although I was chuffed with my numbers, I wasn’t in the top end of the group, but I feel for those who it did affect and as I have said, I hope I'm wrong, but it's just wound me up a bit…
All the best
Dave
Rant over… thanks for reading…
Edited by RT/10Dave on Tuesday 30th October 09:36
Got to agree with Dave on this one perhaps if we do this again we should have a criterea to be an official member and there would be two ways of achieving this:-
1) Buy a Viper and join the VCA, this shows a commitment to the brand and our group.
2) Attend at least three Viper meets or arrange one all by yourself.
Traders or anyone bringing in more than one car would be exempt from all and any awards.
From what I can make out all the rolling road day did was give 'Bragging Rights' to someone who couldn't even be bothered to turn up for the day, just the very end, felt like an ex boyfriend at a wedding turned up late drunk all the beer sh**ged the wife and left.
Anyone got any better ideas, or comments.
1) Buy a Viper and join the VCA, this shows a commitment to the brand and our group.
2) Attend at least three Viper meets or arrange one all by yourself.
Traders or anyone bringing in more than one car would be exempt from all and any awards.
From what I can make out all the rolling road day did was give 'Bragging Rights' to someone who couldn't even be bothered to turn up for the day, just the very end, felt like an ex boyfriend at a wedding turned up late drunk all the beer sh**ged the wife and left.
Anyone got any better ideas, or comments.
Interesting can of worms to open up.
If people want to import cars and make a quick buck then good luck to them, but I'm buggered if I want to be helping folks importing Vipers to take down resell values of my car at my expense.
What really upsets me is when these folks come on the forum and masquerade as true fans of the car and ask for help, which is gladly given, at no charge, just so they can sell on. I see no reason why these folks cannot declare themselves as dealers and be upfront about it. Atlantic Sports cars are absolutely upfront with everyone here and although I have yet to meet them they are obviously decent upfront guys. So whats the problem declaring who you really are?
Joe Delnevo, is happy to declare he is a car dealer, so no problems there.
Apart from Crackle, who is Chris Parnell (ViperRus)?
As regards Dave's point re the trophy, I think he has laid out a reasonable position.
Ultimately honesty is the best policy, very difficult for the true Viper fans to find out the truth from a post on a forum. Athough Chief Inspector Dave seems to have a nose for these things!!!
If people want to import cars and make a quick buck then good luck to them, but I'm buggered if I want to be helping folks importing Vipers to take down resell values of my car at my expense.
What really upsets me is when these folks come on the forum and masquerade as true fans of the car and ask for help, which is gladly given, at no charge, just so they can sell on. I see no reason why these folks cannot declare themselves as dealers and be upfront about it. Atlantic Sports cars are absolutely upfront with everyone here and although I have yet to meet them they are obviously decent upfront guys. So whats the problem declaring who you really are?
Joe Delnevo, is happy to declare he is a car dealer, so no problems there.
Apart from Crackle, who is Chris Parnell (ViperRus)?
As regards Dave's point re the trophy, I think he has laid out a reasonable position.
Ultimately honesty is the best policy, very difficult for the true Viper fans to find out the truth from a post on a forum. Athough Chief Inspector Dave seems to have a nose for these things!!!
Kev you did meet Atlantic, James the owner brought the SRT Ram
I organised the trophies with my long time mate Chris, who also happens to have brought a viper a few years ago
he was due to turn up to the dyno day but unfortunately had a last minute clash with a holiday. The banner i knocked up at home, I only found out crackle was a dealer after the dyno runs, after Baz or Fishboy cant remember who, told me. Having said that i still made the decision to give the trophy to crackle, sticking to posts on the original thread i made earlier in the week, at the end of the day regarding the dyno run crackle hadnt done anything wrong as there was no rules set
On hindsight i should of made sure just the regulars were the ones with a chance in the thread earlier on, not a dealer who we will probably wont see again.
The DB trophy was handed to Baz as Dave suggested, as he had 2 go's to reach exactly the same sound decibel as Baz who only had one go.
I organised the trophies with my long time mate Chris, who also happens to have brought a viper a few years ago
he was due to turn up to the dyno day but unfortunately had a last minute clash with a holiday. The banner i knocked up at home, I only found out crackle was a dealer after the dyno runs, after Baz or Fishboy cant remember who, told me. Having said that i still made the decision to give the trophy to crackle, sticking to posts on the original thread i made earlier in the week, at the end of the day regarding the dyno run crackle hadnt done anything wrong as there was no rules setOn hindsight i should of made sure just the regulars were the ones with a chance in the thread earlier on, not a dealer who we will probably wont see again.
The DB trophy was handed to Baz as Dave suggested, as he had 2 go's to reach exactly the same sound decibel as Baz who only had one go.
Edited by Viper on Tuesday 30th October 17:57
A lot off good answers and some awkward decesions to be made...
Personally think this sort of thing should be members only or at least active viper owners...
Think Neil did the right thing as he did win but the owner could of refussed and given it to the rightfull winner...
And not even a post of thanks afterwards....
Still had a great day though.....
Baz
Personally think this sort of thing should be members only or at least active viper owners...
Think Neil did the right thing as he did win but the owner could of refussed and given it to the rightfull winner...
And not even a post of thanks afterwards....
Still had a great day though.....
Baz
Edited by V1PER on Tuesday 30th October 13:23
No one is being blamed for a decision that was made I stick by any decision any of you make, Dave's post was only to make us aware of peoples feelings when club meets are available, those of you who go back 9 years yes thats me an Viper will remember the days we could get in any event for nothing, people started coming with us who we never saw again which was a pity. some people even complained when they had to pay or no longer received star parking.
The club and all of you who are truly in it have been very kind to each other over the years and I guess it is the feeling that someone used us for his own gains, but thats what some people are like.
I think Daves point is that all of us owe it to our selves to protect the Viper market and the value of these great cars, I strongly believe in the future, if we have a motoring one the Viper will be talked about in fushed tones much like a genuine 60's Cobra.
Now all you tight buggers join the VCA next year !!!!!!!!!
The club and all of you who are truly in it have been very kind to each other over the years and I guess it is the feeling that someone used us for his own gains, but thats what some people are like.
I think Daves point is that all of us owe it to our selves to protect the Viper market and the value of these great cars, I strongly believe in the future, if we have a motoring one the Viper will be talked about in fushed tones much like a genuine 60's Cobra.
Now all you tight buggers join the VCA next year !!!!!!!!!
Firstly, Hi Neil, Sorry mate, in no way did I mean to point a finger in your direction for any bad decisions being made, at the end of the day that was your call.
The thread was purely meant to highlight an issue which we are all aware of, namely that there are a couple of people on the forum, who's names have already been mentioned above who seem to be masquerading as owners and leaching free advice from us, which I think is wrong, if these people wish to run a business then good luck to them, but to get free advice and assistance from the club by masquerading as an owner I just don't think it's on. I'm afraid the dyno-day thing just was the last straw for me, I had no issue with Crackle coming along and testing his Viper, but to then walk away with a club donated trophy having turned up so late in the day and clearly showing no interest in the 'club aspect' of the day, and over a week later and not so much as a thanks... Well I've already said it all above.
I think Paul has definitely come up with some great ideas with regard to future events and the 'vetting procedure/criteria', which is great, and the support that this thread has generated both here on the forums and on the email etc is also great... Hopefully more people will chime in here with their thoughts.
Paul has previously mentioned ideas surrounding the 'Future of the Club' http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
And issues such as this possibly warrant further investigation into forming a more solid, less grey area club in the UK, the VCA is obviously a route which many of us have already taken, but clearly this doesn't suit everyone's wants/needs in the UK, but maybe we could look at something a little more streamlined in order to include other UK owners? Which would include the 'vetting procedure/criteria', (unfortunatley the more I type that the more authoritive it's sounding).
I guess my main reason for the thread was to get this issue off my chest and to give other members of the club a chance to chime in and vent their opinions about it all as well, which will hopefully give us all a stronger club future.
Everyone here is great, and there are some great Viper Owners/Members out there who we have not only turned to for help and assistance, but many who don't get that actively involved with Club Events, but are still an integral part of the Viper experience, some of whom I am still yet to meet. I myself have only been an owner/member for 10 months and am really enjoying all aspects of it all, but I don't like seeing people taken for granted which is why I started this.
I just think a more solid structure would be better for us all.
The thread was purely meant to highlight an issue which we are all aware of, namely that there are a couple of people on the forum, who's names have already been mentioned above who seem to be masquerading as owners and leaching free advice from us, which I think is wrong, if these people wish to run a business then good luck to them, but to get free advice and assistance from the club by masquerading as an owner I just don't think it's on. I'm afraid the dyno-day thing just was the last straw for me, I had no issue with Crackle coming along and testing his Viper, but to then walk away with a club donated trophy having turned up so late in the day and clearly showing no interest in the 'club aspect' of the day, and over a week later and not so much as a thanks... Well I've already said it all above.
I think Paul has definitely come up with some great ideas with regard to future events and the 'vetting procedure/criteria', which is great, and the support that this thread has generated both here on the forums and on the email etc is also great... Hopefully more people will chime in here with their thoughts.
Paul has previously mentioned ideas surrounding the 'Future of the Club' http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
And issues such as this possibly warrant further investigation into forming a more solid, less grey area club in the UK, the VCA is obviously a route which many of us have already taken, but clearly this doesn't suit everyone's wants/needs in the UK, but maybe we could look at something a little more streamlined in order to include other UK owners? Which would include the 'vetting procedure/criteria', (unfortunatley the more I type that the more authoritive it's sounding).
I guess my main reason for the thread was to get this issue off my chest and to give other members of the club a chance to chime in and vent their opinions about it all as well, which will hopefully give us all a stronger club future.
Everyone here is great, and there are some great Viper Owners/Members out there who we have not only turned to for help and assistance, but many who don't get that actively involved with Club Events, but are still an integral part of the Viper experience, some of whom I am still yet to meet. I myself have only been an owner/member for 10 months and am really enjoying all aspects of it all, but I don't like seeing people taken for granted which is why I started this.
I just think a more solid structure would be better for us all.
It may upset but the words were not mine in the post and I felt that with expressions like pay reasonable expenses really put me off it means that dues would need to be collected to do this....OK so we need:-
President
Treasurer
Events organiser
Committee member
Committe member
The last three would be required to stop it being in financial control of the first two ie three votes outnumbers two.
Now lets look back at the last couple of meets we were lucky to get ten cars so 50% of the club are now on the committee.
Now we collect what £50 per year for membership and we have 500 in the bank, take out peoples expenses which at presnet they do for nothing postage etc and you probably have nothing left.
If its anything like the number of people who belong to the VCA this side of the pond then we would have 10 members.....wow !!!!
No the original post was to take the club somewhere it would love to go but numbers prevent this.
I know that Tom will be along soon to slag off the VCA but overall they are our main point of contact, we all use the web site for forums and information, we get discounts off products by Chuck, Jon B, Shaun Roe and others.
Plus we get a great magazine which has featured us in the past and Viper notes to keep track of events.
And for Chesta, you had some great ideas, put some into practice organise something perhaps your way is the best way forward, but I do come back to the following.
We drive American cars spares are not easily available in the UK could we block book a hotel for UK VOI1 provide four glossy mags in a year and six copies of notes.
Go with the majority join the VCA.
President
Treasurer
Events organiser
Committee member
Committe member
The last three would be required to stop it being in financial control of the first two ie three votes outnumbers two.
Now lets look back at the last couple of meets we were lucky to get ten cars so 50% of the club are now on the committee.
Now we collect what £50 per year for membership and we have 500 in the bank, take out peoples expenses which at presnet they do for nothing postage etc and you probably have nothing left.
If its anything like the number of people who belong to the VCA this side of the pond then we would have 10 members.....wow !!!!
No the original post was to take the club somewhere it would love to go but numbers prevent this.
I know that Tom will be along soon to slag off the VCA but overall they are our main point of contact, we all use the web site for forums and information, we get discounts off products by Chuck, Jon B, Shaun Roe and others.
Plus we get a great magazine which has featured us in the past and Viper notes to keep track of events.
And for Chesta, you had some great ideas, put some into practice organise something perhaps your way is the best way forward, but I do come back to the following.
We drive American cars spares are not easily available in the UK could we block book a hotel for UK VOI1 provide four glossy mags in a year and six copies of notes.
Go with the majority join the VCA.
I won't comment on the tropy for obvious reasons. But I had a thoroughly good day, was amazed how much power the SRT made and the highlight, meeting and chatting to old friends and new.
Happy to further the club in the UK, happy with the VCA even though my membership application went astray this year!
Well done Dave for raising your head above the parapet of an issue I hadn't been aware of (idocy rules supreme in my family) but I support the cause certainly now.
Phil
Happy to further the club in the UK, happy with the VCA even though my membership application went astray this year!
Well done Dave for raising your head above the parapet of an issue I hadn't been aware of (idocy rules supreme in my family) but I support the cause certainly now.
Phil
I am glad this has come out into the open at last, and I salute Dave and everyone else for their diplomatic methods of explanation. I would have just sworn all the way through!
Personally, I only think it right that Crackle, if he ever reads this post, should return the trophy and banner and give it to Phil (XYY man) who really is the rightful owner.
Let's face it - if Joel had posted that he was running his car I'm sure he wouldn't have taken the trophy or no one would have turned up.
I know it's not just for the trophy but its the principle.
Personally, I only think it right that Crackle, if he ever reads this post, should return the trophy and banner and give it to Phil (XYY man) who really is the rightful owner.
Let's face it - if Joel had posted that he was running his car I'm sure he wouldn't have taken the trophy or no one would have turned up.
I know it's not just for the trophy but its the principle.
Viper said:
500 RAM said:
With the above comments in mind should we return the viper disc brake clock won on the northen viper run,as we are non-members!!!!!!
I think Baz and i were in a close place Andrew 
Edited by Viper on Wednesday 31st October 19:08
Andrew you won that fair and square,, You have been to events all over the country and are a regular....
Baz
PS and you have nice boobs.....
Edited by V1PER on Wednesday 31st October 21:42
Wise words Dave, in total agreement. Whilst the VCA has some great points it seems that year on year we have this debate about how to form a UK Viper Club. Maybe the way to go to increase numbers would be a UK Viper V10 Club, and have all V10 engined cars(Rams) or replicas able to join? I hear what Paul is saying re numbers but you must also remember that just because owners can,t make events doesn,t mean they don,t want to be part of a club. As a point of interest despite being "out of it" in Wales I,d love to be part of the running of any future UK Club (take note Dave). I think this issue will keep on rising to the surface, its gonna take a group of us to step forward and have a go at some point. There are some very small one make car clubs in the UK that seem to be able to make it work. I`m happy to stand up and be counted if a working group is needed to make this happen.
(See.....not a neg word about the VCA!)
(See.....not a neg word about the VCA!)
spent a while trying to decide what to post in here as i don't disagree with all that has been said if crackle is indeed a dealer, but at the end of the day we didn't set rules so couldn't make them up as we felt like it.
Perhaps we should make it an annual event and the trophy's get passed on to the top HP and noise each year and I'm sure sput can have a go. That'll also give me a chance to find that extra 0.01db over baz as well
Failing that if the supercharged RT is being sold then the trophy should at least remain with the car and hopefully then the new owner will become a full participating member deserving of the trophy
If we are going to do the full club thing, I'll do whatever i can to help but i have posted my thoughts on that previously
Perhaps we should make it an annual event and the trophy's get passed on to the top HP and noise each year and I'm sure sput can have a go. That'll also give me a chance to find that extra 0.01db over baz as well
Failing that if the supercharged RT is being sold then the trophy should at least remain with the car and hopefully then the new owner will become a full participating member deserving of the trophy
If we are going to do the full club thing, I'll do whatever i can to help but i have posted my thoughts on that previously
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