Tell me about counter steering
Discussion
I was chatting to an ex bike journo today about this and that and bike cornering came up.
I mentioned to him that I wanted to get my bike over further to enable me to take a tighter line, but was struggling to get it over far enough and asked whether I should simply get more body weight over to the side of the bike. Anyway, he suggested counter steering, so on a right hander he suggests giving the bars a very slight pull to the left and the bike will drop down nicely enabling you to take the corner.
Now, he is an expert and I am not but do any of you guys use this method, or is it best to just use your bodyweight to get the required angle of lean.
Your thoughts are most welcome.
I mentioned to him that I wanted to get my bike over further to enable me to take a tighter line, but was struggling to get it over far enough and asked whether I should simply get more body weight over to the side of the bike. Anyway, he suggested counter steering, so on a right hander he suggests giving the bars a very slight pull to the left and the bike will drop down nicely enabling you to take the corner.
Now, he is an expert and I am not but do any of you guys use this method, or is it best to just use your bodyweight to get the required angle of lean.
Your thoughts are most welcome.
Garlick said:
I was chatting to an ex bike journo today about this and that and bike cornering came up.
I mentioned to him that I wanted to get my bike over further to enable me to take a tighter line, but was struggling to get it over far enough and asked whether I should simply get more body weight over to the side of the bike. Anyway, he suggested counter steering, so on a right hander he suggests giving the bars a very slight pull to the left and the bike will drop down nicely enabling you to take the corner.
Now, he is an expert and I am not but do any of you guys use this method, or is it best to just use your bodyweight to get the required angle of lean.
Your thoughts are most welcome.
He can't be that much of an expert as you don't pull with your left you push with your right for right hand bends and push with the left for left hand bends........that's why he's a journoI mentioned to him that I wanted to get my bike over further to enable me to take a tighter line, but was struggling to get it over far enough and asked whether I should simply get more body weight over to the side of the bike. Anyway, he suggested counter steering, so on a right hander he suggests giving the bars a very slight pull to the left and the bike will drop down nicely enabling you to take the corner.
Now, he is an expert and I am not but do any of you guys use this method, or is it best to just use your bodyweight to get the required angle of lean.
Your thoughts are most welcome.
Andy OH said:
Garlick said:
I was chatting to an ex bike journo today about this and that and bike cornering came up.
I mentioned to him that I wanted to get my bike over further to enable me to take a tighter line, but was struggling to get it over far enough and asked whether I should simply get more body weight over to the side of the bike. Anyway, he suggested counter steering, so on a right hander he suggests giving the bars a very slight pull to the left and the bike will drop down nicely enabling you to take the corner.
Now, he is an expert and I am not but do any of you guys use this method, or is it best to just use your bodyweight to get the required angle of lean.
Your thoughts are most welcome.
He can't be that much of an expert as you don't pull with your left you push with your right for right hand bends and push with the left for left hand bends........that's why he's a journoI mentioned to him that I wanted to get my bike over further to enable me to take a tighter line, but was struggling to get it over far enough and asked whether I should simply get more body weight over to the side of the bike. Anyway, he suggested counter steering, so on a right hander he suggests giving the bars a very slight pull to the left and the bike will drop down nicely enabling you to take the corner.
Now, he is an expert and I am not but do any of you guys use this method, or is it best to just use your bodyweight to get the required angle of lean.
Your thoughts are most welcome.
Andy OH said:
He can't be that much of an expert as you don't pull with your left you push with your right for right hand bends and push with the left for left hand bends........that's why he's a journo
????Push or pull, makes no difference, just do it the "wrong way" if you know what I mean.
Hi Garlick -
You'll find (eventually) that you are counter-steering without being aware of it. I found (for quite some time, and even now on the odd occasion) that a positive countersteer feels alien. But you'll be doing it without realising, I guarantee you.
Find a long, empty car park and get up to 25mph. Gently push the opposite bar, and the bike will "drop in" and start going the opposite way. The more you want to turn, the more you push.
Some people find pulling the correct bar back, rather than pushing the opposite bar more natural - I certainly do. The net effect is still the same - the front wheel points in the opposite direction to where you want to go, for a short while.
Countersteering is also known as positive steering - in case you hear it called different and wonder what's being talked about.
Give it a go and practice!
Soss
You'll find (eventually) that you are counter-steering without being aware of it. I found (for quite some time, and even now on the odd occasion) that a positive countersteer feels alien. But you'll be doing it without realising, I guarantee you.
Find a long, empty car park and get up to 25mph. Gently push the opposite bar, and the bike will "drop in" and start going the opposite way. The more you want to turn, the more you push.
Some people find pulling the correct bar back, rather than pushing the opposite bar more natural - I certainly do. The net effect is still the same - the front wheel points in the opposite direction to where you want to go, for a short while.
Countersteering is also known as positive steering - in case you hear it called different and wonder what's being talked about.
Give it a go and practice!
Soss
Thurbs said:
Andy OH said:
He can't be that much of an expert as you don't pull with your left you push with your right for right hand bends and push with the left for left hand bends........that's why he's a journo
????Push or pull, makes no difference, just do it the "wrong way" if you know what I mean.
Anybody who goes round any bend is already counter steering, we all do it automatically as if we didnt the bike wont go round a corner. When people talk about counter steering what they are really saying is active counter steering, e.g. counter steering more!
The best thing to do is find an empty car park on a sunday and try stuff. Ride is a straight line and then push the bars one way or another, if you push right you will steer right, oush left and steer left - its down to gyroscopic force. Then in corners that you are 100% happy with, gently (and I mean gently) try counter steering a bit more, your line will tighten.
The main thing is to be careful, counter steering is one of those things that can go really wrong when you start to think about it!! if you just ride, then you dont need to think... Take it easy!!!
The best thing to do is find an empty car park on a sunday and try stuff. Ride is a straight line and then push the bars one way or another, if you push right you will steer right, oush left and steer left - its down to gyroscopic force. Then in corners that you are 100% happy with, gently (and I mean gently) try counter steering a bit more, your line will tighten.
The main thing is to be careful, counter steering is one of those things that can go really wrong when you start to think about it!! if you just ride, then you dont need to think... Take it easy!!!
You'll be counter steering already without realising it. As you're building confidence you'll need to be more aggressive on the initial 'shove' in order to get that initial lean as the centrifugal force is trying to keep you upright.
That's how I understand it. A positive push makes all the difference! There are some good YouTube vids on counter steering too, go have a looky.
That's how I understand it. A positive push makes all the difference! There are some good YouTube vids on counter steering too, go have a looky.
Sossige, Maruchino and TwitAbove 10 or so miles an hour, you are counter steering whether you know it or not. Without it, it would not be possible to turn.
You can add more consciously to tip you into corners quicker, or to tighten up the line you are already following if the corner is sharper than you thought etc.
It takes some effort to consciously do it, but you are doing it already. It feels unnatural to tug the bars the wrong direction to get round, but it’s a great way of tipping yourself in.
You can add more consciously to tip you into corners quicker, or to tighten up the line you are already following if the corner is sharper than you thought etc.
It takes some effort to consciously do it, but you are doing it already. It feels unnatural to tug the bars the wrong direction to get round, but it’s a great way of tipping yourself in.
As other peeps have said, you have to countersteer to turn at all. You're already doing it although you might not realise it.
What he's suggesting is consciously countersteering more and more forcefully.
What this does is shift the bike from straight to banked for the correct turn radius in a shorter time and distance.
The snappier the countersteering the sharper and quicker the movement.
At higher speeds it requires a bit more force.
Once setup on this new line, with some throttle the bike will just carve its way through the bend with no further steering inputs.
hey presto.
What he's suggesting is consciously countersteering more and more forcefully.
What this does is shift the bike from straight to banked for the correct turn radius in a shorter time and distance.
The snappier the countersteering the sharper and quicker the movement.
At higher speeds it requires a bit more force.
Once setup on this new line, with some throttle the bike will just carve its way through the bend with no further steering inputs.
hey presto.
Edited by cmsd2 on Monday 26th October 16:26
It's more about centre of mass and momentum than gyroscopic effect.
Stand a pencil up on your desk. Now push the base of it to the left, the pencil will fall to the right, that's because you pushed the extremity, causing it rotate around the centre of mass, resulting init being unstable because the support point is now to the side of the centre. Same thing with the bike, push the right bar, the wheel turns to the left, this moves the contact point to the left of the centre of mass, so the bike rotates to the right around it's centre.
Stand a pencil up on your desk. Now push the base of it to the left, the pencil will fall to the right, that's because you pushed the extremity, causing it rotate around the centre of mass, resulting init being unstable because the support point is now to the side of the centre. Same thing with the bike, push the right bar, the wheel turns to the left, this moves the contact point to the left of the centre of mass, so the bike rotates to the right around it's centre.
Very boring of me, but can I suggest again reading A Twist Of The Wrist - Volume 2, by Keith Code.
It explains this in great detail.
AF
(P.S - No, I am not Keith Code trying to plug my book, I have just read it numerous times on the advice of a friend and it has helped me to disect certain problems I may have had with my riding and puts into words and diagrams / pictures the "feelings" including survival reactions etc etc that you may have had on the bike, but may not have nessicarily been able understand or explain yourself.)
It explains this in great detail.
AF
(P.S - No, I am not Keith Code trying to plug my book, I have just read it numerous times on the advice of a friend and it has helped me to disect certain problems I may have had with my riding and puts into words and diagrams / pictures the "feelings" including survival reactions etc etc that you may have had on the bike, but may not have nessicarily been able understand or explain yourself.)
Actually Fast said:
Very boring of me, but can I suggest again reading A Twist Of The Wrist - Volume 2, by Keith Code.
It explains this in great detail.
AF
(P.S - No, I am not Keith Code trying to plug my book, I have just read it numerous times on the advice of a friend and it has helped me to disect certain problems I may have had with my riding and puts into words and diagrams / pictures the "feelings" including survival reactions etc etc that you may have had on the bike, but may not have nessicarily been able understand or explain yourself.)
I bet you are Kieth!It explains this in great detail.
AF
(P.S - No, I am not Keith Code trying to plug my book, I have just read it numerous times on the advice of a friend and it has helped me to disect certain problems I may have had with my riding and puts into words and diagrams / pictures the "feelings" including survival reactions etc etc that you may have had on the bike, but may not have nessicarily been able understand or explain yourself.)
I am now going to order the bloomin book you have subliminally suggested it enough to get me to buy it!
If you're not kieth then you name is Derrin Brown... you know the guy of C4.
Twit said:
Anybody who goes round any bend is already counter steering, we all do it automatically as if we didnt the bike wont go round a corner.
Exactly.Also, lean angle is a function of speed and bend radius so to lean more go round the same corner faster or find a tighter corner and go round it at the same speed.
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