Follow up to flip plate removal
Discussion
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...
Follow up to original post above.
I've finally received a summons after being stopped for a routine check several months ago.
Offences are lettering to small on plate, (0.7 inches too small), no BS number and the plate could be folded down to make it unreadable.
So deciding how to plead as guilty for the undersized lettering, but as the bike is year 2000 i do't think the BS number has to be printed on the plate as they do after Sept 2001.
As for the fold over plate, the plate was visible at all times until the oficer tampered with it.
I beleive the 3 offences above are part of a single offence so really not sure how to plead.
Follow up to original post above.
I've finally received a summons after being stopped for a routine check several months ago.
Offences are lettering to small on plate, (0.7 inches too small), no BS number and the plate could be folded down to make it unreadable.
So deciding how to plead as guilty for the undersized lettering, but as the bike is year 2000 i do't think the BS number has to be printed on the plate as they do after Sept 2001.
As for the fold over plate, the plate was visible at all times until the oficer tampered with it.
I beleive the 3 offences above are part of a single offence so really not sure how to plead.
couldnt they attach a "attempting to pervert the course of justice" in top of that?
http://www.policespecials.com/forum/index.php?show...
http://www.policespecials.com/forum/index.php?show...
battenburg2009 said:
y2blade said:
couldnt they attach a "attempting to pervert the course of justice" in top of that?
No, shame thoughI love people that knowingly break the law then cry "not fair" when caught
why else would it be fitted? if not to pervert the course?
battenburg2009 said:
I love people that knowingly break the law then cry "not fair" when caught
Yeah but in this case he's saying it's fair do's to be done for undersize lettering, but how is having a plate that capable of being obsured illegal? As said on his original thread any plate is capable of being obscured. I'd have thought that would be one of those things that's legal to own but illegal to use (like radar jammers). I'd have thought attempting to pervert the course of justice would make more sense as said aboveEdited by RizzoTheRat on Thursday 2nd July 15:35
battenburg2009 said:
y2blade said:
couldnt they attach a "attempting to pervert the course of justice" in top of that?
No, shame thoughI love people that knowingly break the law then cry "not fair" when caught
The issue is the folding number plate which it is not clear if that is or is not breaking the law. On that subject Lewy has clearly stated that he did not know he was breaking the law and the ‘not fair’ call is about the fact that it is going to court (which will almost inevitably result in increased costs for the small number plate issue) over something that to many believe doesn’t appear to be illegal.
most crimes have two parts; actus reus and mens rea. The actus reus being the guilty action and the mens rea being the intention to commit that act. It would be unjust for people to be declared criminals if, for instance, they broke the speed limit because they had a heart attack while driving. (Though speeding offences are harder to escape as they're strict liability offences)
I don't see how having a number plate that can be flipped down amounts to a crime as it lacks both a guilty action (assuming it's not in use) and a guilty mind (Being in posession of something that can be used to commit a crime is not sufficient to satisfy intention to commit that crime). You may have bought the vehicle with the equipment to fold the plate down and not been aware that it wasn't standard, consequently you wouldn't have had any intention to ever use it either.
They are attempting to convict you on the basis you were able to commit a crime, not that you had committed one or ever intended to.
As for the number plate lettering, yeah nothing there.
The BS stuff, I don't know about. If you're right then I guess it's pretty clear cut. If they're doing this as one offence, you should get off unless you have an utterly retarded magistrate which is sadly more likely than you'd want to believe.
I don't see how having a number plate that can be flipped down amounts to a crime as it lacks both a guilty action (assuming it's not in use) and a guilty mind (Being in posession of something that can be used to commit a crime is not sufficient to satisfy intention to commit that crime). You may have bought the vehicle with the equipment to fold the plate down and not been aware that it wasn't standard, consequently you wouldn't have had any intention to ever use it either.
They are attempting to convict you on the basis you were able to commit a crime, not that you had committed one or ever intended to.
As for the number plate lettering, yeah nothing there.
The BS stuff, I don't know about. If you're right then I guess it's pretty clear cut. If they're doing this as one offence, you should get off unless you have an utterly retarded magistrate which is sadly more likely than you'd want to believe.
RizzoTheRat said:
1 - Get a lawyer
Probably the best advice. Your local Citizens' Advice Bureau may have a list of specialist motoring lawyers, or a quick Google or a trawl through the ads in most of the bike magazines will probably point you in the right direction.I can't say whether or not the non-flipping up flip up plate flipper is legal or not, as it's a while since I did any traffic law, and it's all fading away now.
I think you'd be best off speaking with a specialist motoring lawyer, and deciding what to do when you've spoken to them. If you go to see a lwayer, make sure you take all the paperwork/summonses with you.
LOGiK said:
most crimes have two parts; actus reus and mens rea. The actus reus being the guilty action and the mens rea being the intention to commit that act. It would be unjust for people to be declared criminals if, for instance, they broke the speed limit because they had a heart attack while driving. (Though speeding offences are harder to escape as they're strict liability offences)
I don't see how having a number plate that can be flipped down amounts to a crime as it lacks both a guilty action (assuming it's not in use) and a guilty mind (Being in posession of something that can be used to commit a crime is not sufficient to satisfy intention to commit that crime). You may have bought the vehicle with the equipment to fold the plate down and not been aware that it wasn't standard, consequently you wouldn't have had any intention to ever use it either.
They are attempting to convict you on the basis you were able to commit a crime, not that you had committed one or ever intended to.
As for the number plate lettering, yeah nothing there.
The BS stuff, I don't know about. If you're right then I guess it's pretty clear cut. If they're doing this as one offence, you should get off unless you have an utterly retarded magistrate which is sadly more likely than you'd want to believe.
Crimes of attempt do not always require the actus reus to be complete. I don't see how having a number plate that can be flipped down amounts to a crime as it lacks both a guilty action (assuming it's not in use) and a guilty mind (Being in posession of something that can be used to commit a crime is not sufficient to satisfy intention to commit that crime). You may have bought the vehicle with the equipment to fold the plate down and not been aware that it wasn't standard, consequently you wouldn't have had any intention to ever use it either.
They are attempting to convict you on the basis you were able to commit a crime, not that you had committed one or ever intended to.
As for the number plate lettering, yeah nothing there.
The BS stuff, I don't know about. If you're right then I guess it's pretty clear cut. If they're doing this as one offence, you should get off unless you have an utterly retarded magistrate which is sadly more likely than you'd want to believe.
black-k1 said:
From what I have read, Lewy has no real issue with being nicked for the ‘wrong size number plate’ (other than the issue we all have with the police time spent on enforcing such a minor indiscretion and the inconstancies between the MoT requirements and the law) and would accept the £30 FPN.
The issue is the folding number plate which it is not clear if that is or is not breaking the law. On that subject Lewy has clearly stated that he did not know he was breaking the law and the ‘not fair’ call is about the fact that it is going to court (which will almost inevitably result in increased costs for the small number plate issue) over something that to many believe doesn’t appear to be illegal.
k1, your spot on, so i'm now in a position where i could plead guilty to the offence which includesThe issue is the folding number plate which it is not clear if that is or is not breaking the law. On that subject Lewy has clearly stated that he did not know he was breaking the law and the ‘not fair’ call is about the fact that it is going to court (which will almost inevitably result in increased costs for the small number plate issue) over something that to many believe doesn’t appear to be illegal.
(1) letters too small
(2) No BS mark
(3) Fold over plate
Offence of non compliant Number plate (Section 59 Vehicles Excise Act 1994 and Road Vehicles Display of Registration Marks Regulations 2001)
And hope they would take into account the fold over plate has never worked, was on the bike when I purchased it, passed many MOT’s and always been readable.
Or hire a solicitor at some silly ££££ per hour which could end up for than the fine.
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