Advanced Training
Discussion
deffo believe in more training, Im looking myself.
My view is you need two different skills, and they go together.
Road craft - how to stay safe on public roads, and how to spot the risks.
bike control - how to get the most from your bike; where are the limits? this woud normally take the form of a track SCHOOL opposed to a track DAY.
bikesafe.co.uk will get you 2 days with a police biker or advanced trainer for £70, and teach you some good road skills. (reported 100mph in heavy rain!!) Its often mond over matter, the bike can do more than you believe, one needs to know whats enough, and whats TOO much. Also, one can often ride along, un aware of the dangers, and these get taught, so you spot them next time, rather than ride 'blind' passed a potential hazard.
track schools : plenty about. get to learn cornering, braking etc. The ron haslam school is often banded about, so is calfornia racing school (but its more toward advancement toward actual racing, but the lower levels are beneficial)
expect to pay £200 to get a school where you get some serious teaching. Any less and the groups are larger, and the training less specific to your riding.
Im sure hertsbiker will tell us more?
My view is you need two different skills, and they go together.
Road craft - how to stay safe on public roads, and how to spot the risks.
bike control - how to get the most from your bike; where are the limits? this woud normally take the form of a track SCHOOL opposed to a track DAY.
bikesafe.co.uk will get you 2 days with a police biker or advanced trainer for £70, and teach you some good road skills. (reported 100mph in heavy rain!!) Its often mond over matter, the bike can do more than you believe, one needs to know whats enough, and whats TOO much. Also, one can often ride along, un aware of the dangers, and these get taught, so you spot them next time, rather than ride 'blind' passed a potential hazard.
track schools : plenty about. get to learn cornering, braking etc. The ron haslam school is often banded about, so is calfornia racing school (but its more toward advancement toward actual racing, but the lower levels are beneficial)
expect to pay £200 to get a school where you get some serious teaching. Any less and the groups are larger, and the training less specific to your riding.
Im sure hertsbiker will tell us more?
Agree with what's been said, Eliminator mentions joining your local Rospa or IAM group, both provide equivalent training. Some will say one is better than the other but it really depends on the individual observers who coach you as the examiners are often the same for both organisations.
Our IAM group doesn't just prepare you for the advanced test, there is always a list of track days so that any trackday virgins can go along with some friendly faces. That's not to mention the social side of the group.
Getting some advanced training, wherever it comes from, is bound to make you a better, safer rider but it also helps you get more fun out of your biking and you can get more out of your bike, safely. And then you can be critical of the other nob'eads on the road.
Our IAM group doesn't just prepare you for the advanced test, there is always a list of track days so that any trackday virgins can go along with some friendly faces. That's not to mention the social side of the group.
Getting some advanced training, wherever it comes from, is bound to make you a better, safer rider but it also helps you get more fun out of your biking and you can get more out of your bike, safely. And then you can be critical of the other nob'eads on the road.
Being an advanced examiner and an advanced instructor, I am somewhat biased as I have a vested interest, but I would agree with everything said previously, although I do have some doubts about the benefits of track days as although it does teach confidence in the bike and its abilities, there is very little relation to what happens on the road, and sometimes this confidence gained on the track can be misplaced when applying it to road riding. This is not meant as a criticism simply an observation based on experience as in my full time job I often have to investigate these types of accidents and it is a fact that often comes to the fore.
As far as which is best IAM or RoSPA, although I am a RoSPA examiner and diploma instructor/examiner (one of only 4 in the UK) and a Btec assesor, both organisations have their merits.
The IAM by their own admittance are quantity over quality, and with a simple pass or fail grade, there is no way of comparing where you stand in the grand scale of things, whereas with RoSPA if you attain a gold grade (There are three grades, Bronze, Silver and Gold) you know you have achieved a grade on a par with a Police class 2 and is considered by everyone in the trade as being the highest civillian qualification, which is why some insurance companies offer up to 30% discount on RoSPA test passes against the IAM's 10%.
That having been said, the IAM is a good starting point, and they have a good social side to their groups as well although many RoSPA groups are catching up. The RoSPA instructors to be on the register have attained the diploma which at the moment along with Btec is the only recognised advanced motorcycle instructor qualification, and to maintain their place on the register they are retested every three years, whereas with the IAM observers it is a 1 off in house course with as far as I am aware no retest requirement.
Both organisations use Police class 1 riders as examiners (somethingI have done for 25+ years now, so the standard of examination in both camps is more or less on a par although the RoSPA test is more demanding in the areas that the rider is examined on.
As far as Bikesafe is concerned, worthwhile taking part if you want an unbiased opinion of your riding without shelling out a great wad of cash, and as far as the Police are concerned it is good PR. We did a similar thing in my force 20 years ago. The problem is that many Police riders although being good riders do not always make good instructors, simply because there is a world of difference in being able to ride the ride to assesing, evaluating and diagnosing riding habits, and this is a complaint I here on many occasions. This is not a criticism, merely an observation, but it is none the less a good way of starting out.
Advanced training does not have to be expensive, but it can be a lot of fun, I regularly do training days out for riders for no more than the cost of a tank of fuel and coffee, and many groups work the same way.
So, in conclusion, I would say go along to a local meeting, sign up and see how you get on, at the end of the day you have absolutely nothingto lose but everything to gain.
As far as which is best IAM or RoSPA, although I am a RoSPA examiner and diploma instructor/examiner (one of only 4 in the UK) and a Btec assesor, both organisations have their merits.
The IAM by their own admittance are quantity over quality, and with a simple pass or fail grade, there is no way of comparing where you stand in the grand scale of things, whereas with RoSPA if you attain a gold grade (There are three grades, Bronze, Silver and Gold) you know you have achieved a grade on a par with a Police class 2 and is considered by everyone in the trade as being the highest civillian qualification, which is why some insurance companies offer up to 30% discount on RoSPA test passes against the IAM's 10%.
That having been said, the IAM is a good starting point, and they have a good social side to their groups as well although many RoSPA groups are catching up. The RoSPA instructors to be on the register have attained the diploma which at the moment along with Btec is the only recognised advanced motorcycle instructor qualification, and to maintain their place on the register they are retested every three years, whereas with the IAM observers it is a 1 off in house course with as far as I am aware no retest requirement.
Both organisations use Police class 1 riders as examiners (somethingI have done for 25+ years now, so the standard of examination in both camps is more or less on a par although the RoSPA test is more demanding in the areas that the rider is examined on.
As far as Bikesafe is concerned, worthwhile taking part if you want an unbiased opinion of your riding without shelling out a great wad of cash, and as far as the Police are concerned it is good PR. We did a similar thing in my force 20 years ago. The problem is that many Police riders although being good riders do not always make good instructors, simply because there is a world of difference in being able to ride the ride to assesing, evaluating and diagnosing riding habits, and this is a complaint I here on many occasions. This is not a criticism, merely an observation, but it is none the less a good way of starting out.
Advanced training does not have to be expensive, but it can be a lot of fun, I regularly do training days out for riders for no more than the cost of a tank of fuel and coffee, and many groups work the same way.
So, in conclusion, I would say go along to a local meeting, sign up and see how you get on, at the end of the day you have absolutely nothingto lose but everything to gain.
Just spoke with these guys, seems a tenner very well spent, anyone else done this ? they're in Aberdeen BTW.
www.thebreakfastclub.info/index.html
www.thebreakfastclub.info/index.html
For advanced concepts the best thing you can do is read.
Get the "Twist of the wrist" books, read them then read them again.
Once you are familiar with the techniques go and do the Califonia superbike school, and do as many of the levels as is possible.
Everything they teach you is applicable to road and track.
Then watch your riding improve 1000 fold
Get the "Twist of the wrist" books, read them then read them again.
Once you are familiar with the techniques go and do the Califonia superbike school, and do as many of the levels as is possible.
Everything they teach you is applicable to road and track.
Then watch your riding improve 1000 fold
zorro said: Thanks for the feedback, based on this I think I'll have a crack at Bikesafe then move on to RoSPA.
Seems like a good plan. Having been through both IAM and RoSPA Gold training in the car, but not yet on two wheels, I completely agree with T-C's remarks about both organisations.
954 Girlie said:
although I do have some doubts about the benefits of track days as although it does teach confidence in the bike and its abilities, there is very little relation to what happens on the road, and sometimes this confidence gained on the track can be misplaced when applying it to road riding. .
I disagree with this, IMHO ANY experience gained in any way on 2 wheels will make you a more capable & experienced rider - track days do many things including teaching you to handle small slides, throttle control etc in a safe environment.
Anna
Perhaps I will have to re-evalutate all the accidents I have investigated, where this issue has come to light then.
954 Girlie said:
Like I said in my post, I am receptive to ALL information - techniques & experiences because I believe it makes me more knowledgable & capable as a rider
Thanks!!
Anna
heres some useful info you could take on board or ignore.. to avoid cars not seeing you on the road, wear a bikini. your gauranteed that drivers will see you!
seriously tho, how do you get on a police pursuit course? Id love that.
954 Girlie said:
Like I said in my post, I am receptive to ALL information - techniques & experiences because I believe it makes me more knowledgable & capable as a rider - I fully believe that doing track days has enhanced my skills and ablilities tenfold!!!. At the end of the day I am a single parent with big responsibilities and want to stay alive whilst still enjoying my chosen passtime to it's fullest.
I would be very interested to learn from from your experiences & understand why my opinion is wrong in your view - If I am making an error of judgement then I would like to know -
please could you explain how and investigation has proven that doing a track day has been the cause of an accident???
Thanks!!
Anna
I will try and explain, and forgive me if it comes out sounding wrong or pompous, that is not my intention.
Many riders have attempted to put techniques learnt on the track into practice out on the road, for example positioning where they will exit a right hander out towards the centre white line (One guy was completely decapitated by an oncoming vehicle, braking through the bend, or more particularly dragging their rear brake through the bend.
Many of the techniques taught are appropriate to a nice smooth tarmacadam surface with good run off areas, good visibility, everyone travelling in the same direction and often makes no account from a road point of view of all the rubbish that road riders have to contend with.
Following on from that, because much of the day is spent without having to pay too much regard to speed limits, it is often forgotten that once back on the road, limits have to be complied with, but many suffer from a gung ho (not everyone, so I am not trying to tar everyone with the same brush) attitude, and due to a lack of forward observation and planning, poor road positioning, excess speed and lack of concentration, things can and often do go pear shaped.
I have three fatals on my desk at the moment, and all happened within about 30 - 60 minutes of leaving a track day, and alll the accompanying riders/witnesses stated that they were applying what they learnt on the track into their road riding. It proved to be a lethal cocktail.
As I said earlier, I am not saying that a track day has no benefits, far from it, but the benefits as far as the actual riding of the bike are minimal at best, potentialy fatal at worst, but they are a lot of fun, and that is inmy opinion how they should be viewed, a fun day out.
Sorry if that offends, but this is my honest opinion. If you put a racer and a good rider together on the road, the road rider will usually leave the racer for dead (excuse the pun).
>> Edited by t-c on Thursday 19th June 14:01
954 Girlie said:
Thats a pretty impressive list!!
You obviously get a buzz from them then! & I'm sure you'd agree that *most* people know how to adapt their riding between road & track & the small percentage that don't there probably isn't much hope for anyway!!
Ever done Nogaro? I am off there in a month
Funnily enough, It has never really bothered me. The track days I have done have been because I was asked to and I got free travel 1st class, and I never turn down the chance to travel at someone elses expense.
s2ooz said:
seriously tho, how do you get on a police pursuit course? Id love that.
954 Girlie said:
Police Pursuit Course ... It is not for everybody - but it was the best thing I ever did - very fast but safe road riding - one to one instruction over 3 full days ... I will find out if he knows anyone else who is still doing it?
Anna
There are a (small) number of police instructors who can teach you this. E-mail me off the Gassing Station and I'll see if I can point you in the right direction.
It has to be said that a police advanced course, i.e. the fast pursuit stuff, is a four week full time affair. And that's after completing the basic response course (two weeks training) and possibly an intermediate course too. So don't expect to reach police Class 1 standard! Doesn't mean you won't have a ball though
Obviously you'll get more out of a police instructor if you've already got the basics behind you (IAM or ideally RoSPA Gold) but either way you'll learn loads and it's truly wicked fun
You'll be faster, safer and could well enjoy it more than a track day
Huge
Edited to say that my e-mail may be on the blink. Ask www.rapidtraining.co.uk about this sort of training.
>> Edited by huge_ego on Saturday 21st June 18:48
huge_ego said:
Obviously you'll get more out of a police instructor if you've already got the basics behind you (IAM or ideally RoSPA Gold) but either way you'll learn loads and it's truly wicked fun
If you get a Police class 1 rider, make sure that they have some form of instructional qualification. The fact that they can ride doesn't mean that they can instruct as the two disciplines are miles apart in many ways. I examine a lot of Police riders for Btec and the RoSPA diploma and many of them fail because they are too regimented in the way they teach and what they teach, and often miss important areas that need to be diagnosed, recognised and then rectified.
A RoSPA diploma holder or a Btec qualified advanced instructor has to prove their instructional ability every three years, and if they are not up to the mark then they get struck off until they re-qualify, and when the new DSA advanced instructor register comes into force in the near future, there will be a lot of current advanced instructors struggling to make the grade.
I examined two Police riders only today. Both hold Police class 1 tickets, both rode to a standard I would expect from such riders, but niether of them could diagnose basic faults or suggest a suitable course of action to assist in remedying those faults, as a result I failed them both.
What I am getting around to saying is just because someone holds a class 1 ticket, doesn't mean you are going to get first class instruction.
DennisTheMenace said:
Im seriously considering doing bikesafe But what would they say about the race can on the ZX6r
Not a lot depending on the Force area you live in. Most bobbies who run Bikesafe are more interested in how you ride the bike that what you have fixed to it.
It is not dissimilar to us conducting advanced test, we get a lot who turn up with black visors, noisy pipes and small plates, and most are even more surprised when we arrive wearing black visors and in some cases noisy pipes as well.
t-c said:
If you get a Police class 1 rider, make sure that they have some form of instructional qualification. The fact that they can ride doesn't mean that they can instruct as the two disciplines are miles apart in many ways.
I totally endorse T-C's view (and indeed all he's said on this post).
The best people I know are, or have recently been, instructors from a Police Driving School. If you can get one of them - and there is at least one at www.rapidtraining.co.uk - then you have unearthed a goldmine of how to drive/ride very, very fast on the road whilst remaining safe.
(A surprisingly different skill set from the track.)Gassing Station | Biker Banter | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff