Total newb - list of dumb questions...

[MiniMonty]

Hi all, been using this forum to keep my precious Austin Mini alive and well for years, grateful to you all.
Now my nephew is looking seriously at motorbikes and we're quite close so I want to be able to chat about
stuff with some knowledge. I've never had a bike, never ridden anything other than a holiday rental twist and go scooter. (I didn't crash it)!
I have a list of newb questions, very grateful for any guidance...

He's been saving hard and he's looking at a new Triumph Speed 400 - is this a suitable first bike?
He'll be commuting in London with very frequent trips to the peak district and the Lakes.
Any wise alternatives to consider?

1) The whole licensing system seems complex and impenetrable (to me). He's 27 and has a provisional car licence, what next?
2) Helmet - which one?
3) Gloves and leathers - essential or a luxury?
4) Any tips and tricks to bring his insurance down?
5) What are the obvious pitfalls for him to avoid as a new biker (assuming he gets a license)?

Thanks in advance all, please feel free to educate me as the caring uncle on any relevant topic.
M

[airsafari87]

Seeing as though I pointed you in this direction I’ll respond.

Those Triumph 400’s are mega looking little bikes and very well received by those who’ve ridden them. So yes, if that’s the style of bike he wants then it’s a good choice.

The best helmet is the one that fits him the best. Try loads on from all different brands, get some advice from someone in the store and buy the one which fits the best, not looks the best.

Gloves, absolutely essential.

Not 100% sure on the licences? But I believe he will have to do a CBT initially, then a Theory test, then his MOD1 which iirc doesn’t actually allow him to ride a bike bigger than 125cc just yet. Then his MOD2 which will allow him to ride a bigger power bike. I can’t say for sure if he will be restricted to a certain power bike (I think they are classed as A2 bikes and maximum of 40 bhp or something??) but if he is the Triumph 400 will fall in to that category anyway.

Insurance is a minefield. Garage it if possible, get additional rider training, fit a tracker is about all I can suggest.

Pitfalls.
Always buy the bike / kit you want, don’t buy something ‘that’ll do’ because you will always end up buying the kit and bike you really wanted in the first place.

And the #1 pitfall. Don’t ever ask about counter steering

Edited by airsafari87 on Sunday 29th September 22:42

Edited by airsafari87 on Sunday 29th September 22:42

[bimsb6]

As above plus lock it up wherever he leaves it .

[carinaman]

Check insurance first.

Would it be better to go for a used motorcycle given the possibility of crashing or dropping the first bike and chances of the bike getting stolen in London?

Matt black and grey helmets seem in fashion. I think commuting in cities a white or fluro coloured one may help improve visibility.

I think one of the most stolen motorcycles is the street triple. I don't know if the new 400s will be as desirable to thieves.

[darkyoung1000]

All sensible advice above, especially about counter steering...

I'll add that a lot of a nearly new kit can be had second hand (I wouldn't advise with helmets though), so you can get most jackets etc. a lot cheaper than you might think (I still have my very good quality 2 piece leathers that cost me £40).

Also, wear decent kit that will be comfortable to ride in for the riding he wants to do. 1 piece leathers might offer amazing protection on track, but they'll be a distracting pain in the arse for commuting.

Worth checking out advanced riding courses once he has a licence (bikesafe for example). It can bring the insurance down, but most importantly, helps make you a better rider!

[Exasperated]

MiniMonty said:

1) The whole licensing system seems complex and impenetrable (to me). He's 27 and has a provisional car licence, what next?

As he's over 24:

CBT - One day course which covers the basics of riding, which gets you out on a 125. After completing the CBT you can legally ride a 125cc bike (not exceeding 14.6bhp) on the road with L plates, then;
Theory Test - Yup, one of those, with a hazard perception test.
Module 1 Test - An off-road test, on tarmac, involving lots of cones.
Module 2 Test - An on-road test.

After passing all that, he can ride whatever he likes, so long as he can insure it

MiniMonty said:

2) Helmet - which one?

Fit is king. I would strongly advise him to go to a proper bike gear/clothing place (Bike Stop in Stevenage is very good) and get them to help him with selection and fitting. Do not buy without trying it on. Don't buy second hand.

MiniMonty said:

3) Gloves and leathers - essential or a luxury?

Whilst a helmet is the only legal requirement, I'm of the opinion that gloves, boots, and either decent textiles or leathers are essential. Skin comes off *really* easily.

MiniMonty said:

4) Any tips and tricks to bring his insurance down?

Don't buy a Ducati Desmosedici, and build no claims. Have it parked in a garage overnight. Don't live in London.

MiniMonty said:

5) What are the obvious pitfalls for him to avoid as a new biker (assuming he gets a license)?

Don't be tempted to ride like a plum. Passing the test is relatively easy but teaches you very little about how to actually ride. Patience is key.

[trickywoo]

New bikes are always more expensive to insure.

It may therefore be worth considering a secondhand SV650.

[KTMsm]

Regular trips to the lakes and the peaks from London - I wouldn't consider anything under a 600

It would also want to be comfortable, which for me would mean an SM / or Adventure bike

I bought a new helmet but secondhand everything else, you need good gear for long trips

Even at used prices I probably have £2k of gear for on and off road

[LosingGrip]

MiniMonty said:

1) The whole licensing system seems complex and impenetrable (to me). He's 27 and has a provisional car licence, what next?
2) Helmet - which one?
3) Gloves and leathers - essential or a luxury?
4) Any tips and tricks to bring his insurance down?
5) What are the obvious pitfalls for him to avoid as a new biker (assuming he gets a license)?

Thanks in advance all, please feel free to educate me as the caring uncle on any relevant topic.
M

1) Someone has covered this already. I'd get a CBT done before spending lots of money on kit incase he hates it. It saying that...CBT is horrible when you are an adult!

2) Try loads on at the shop and buy on fit more than style/looks. I'd rather have a cheap good fitted helmet than an expensive one that is too big as it looked nice (most fatal collisions I attend with motorcycles the helmet has come off). Don't buy second hand as you don't know the history.

3) Proper kit is essential. Especially boots and gloves. You can spend as much as you want here. For commuting I'd personally go for textiles that are Goretex. I've got Richa which have kept me warm and dry. Before that I had Rukka which again kept me warm and dry. Second hand is fine. You might pick up some bargains now.

4) It's going to be expensive. I pay £630 for mine kept on the road. 35, licence for 12 years. Two years NCB. Garage would be half the price. This is in a decent area. I'd hate to see what it's like in London etc.

5) Get the bike he wants. If he wants that sportsbike he'll just he disappointed that he didn't as he's riding in. Throttle goes both ways.

Look into some advanced riding. Bike Safe is a good place to start, but also IAM and RoSPA.

Treat everyone as they are out to kill you. Don't feel you have to keep up with anyone. Ride your own ride.

Enjoy it. I only use mine for commuting at the moment, but 7,000 miles of smiles on the way to and from!

[RazerSauber]

Q1. has been covered. CBT, Theory, Mod 1, Mod 2. Make sure he asks about the angled start for Mod 2. It's one of those "you'll never get one on your test" that you will end up getting on your test.

Q2. This is a lot of personal preference. Go to a shop. Something like a J&S Superstore if there's one nearby. They've got tonnes and tonnes in. Take one, as well as any buff/balaclava he wants to wear and try on everything. Make sure it fits properly and isn't some cack £39.99 job that'll last about 15 minutes. This is one area of biking you absolutely want to spend a few quid. Do not go used. Used helmets are exclusively for man cave decorations.

Q3. All protective gear is essential. Regular clothes aren't built to withstand a drop off a bike. Even some rugged jeans will last literally seconds when falling off. Get proper biker jeans at a minimum. Leathers are good for what they are but they're restrictive. Find a balance between ruggedness, weather protection and comfort. Again, go to a large bike shop. There will be all sorts of things. Absolute minimum I say is gloves, jacket and a helmet for a very short trip (as in literally to town and back). Any longer than that, or for regular commuting, then trousers and boots are essential. The term "meat crayon" is rife on social media for when people wear no gear and fall off.

Q4. Garage, security devices (plural) and a tracker will help. The Martin Lewis 23 day trick can save a few quid on insurance, too. He also used to have a job picker that would help pick a role that had a slightly lower insurance premium depending on what job he does but it was legal. Worth looking into what job he does and how to word it.

Q5. Where to start. Overconfidence is one. Riding way too fast for the conditions, overtaking at silly times, wheelies, burnouts, there are a plethora of ways to get into serious trouble without an air bag to save him. Treat the roads, and the bike, with the utmost respect at all times. The time you take the mick can be the time you end up in hospital. Also, riding a bike isn't the same as driving a car. Awareness needs to be double at least. Assume that drivers haven't seen a motorbike and act accordingly. It doesn't matter who has priority, or who is "in the right", you will lose on a bike.

[carinaman]

trickywoo said:

New bikes are always more expensive to insure.

It may therefore be worth considering a secondhand SV650.

KTMsm said:

Regular trips to the lakes and the peaks from London - I wouldn't consider anything under a 600

It would also want to be comfortable, which for me would mean an SM / or Adventure bike

I bought a new helmet but secondhand everything else, you need good gear for long trips

Even at used prices I probably have £2k of gear for on and off road.

V-Strom 650? (same engine as the SV650)

Again go used. They're discounting them new you don't want to pay too much.

The engine has a broad torque curve that makes it easy to ride. in the lanes you can ride it on the throttle in a high gear and just roll on and off the throttle and not use the brakes. Some people like the engine braking of a V-Twin. The wide torque curve can make it seem like an automatic in that you just leave it in fourth and speed up and slow down using the throttle. I think they're pretty idiot proof.

I reckon an SV650 or V-Strom would be much better suited to a M-Way slog to the lake district than a 400cc single. It's my understanding the V-Strom has a much better headlight than the SV650.

https://www.44teeth.com/suzuki-sv650-best-bike-eve...

If he's going to do London to Cumbria often I suggest he looks past the 400cc singles and besides the V-Strom 650 considers a Yamaha MT 700 or MT 7 Tracer that comes with a fairing, or if he wants to stay in the Triumph camp the Tiger 660 Sport:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN_Qq9PeUdo

Some here reckon Adventure bikes have suspension more suited to our potholed roads so I'd imagine the V-Strom 650 ticks that box.

It's a bit of a compromise and struggle going for a bike that has the looks and image that appeal versus what the motorcycle is to be used for. Is the motorcycle to be a lifestyle accessory or a tool to be used? What will the motorcycle be used for? Heart Vs head is difficult.

Watch out for manhole covers and paint on the road surface when it's wet.

Edited by carinaman on Monday 30th September 11:28

[boyse7en]

MiniMonty said:

1) The whole licensing system seems complex and impenetrable (to me). He's 27 and has a provisional car licence, what next?
2) Helmet - which one?
3) Gloves and leathers - essential or a luxury?
4) Any tips and tricks to bring his insurance down?
5) What are the obvious pitfalls for him to avoid as a new biker (assuming he gets a license)?

Thanks in advance all, please feel free to educate me as the caring uncle on any relevant topic.
M

!) He'll need to do a CBT, a Mod 1 test (which is in a car park or similar) and Mod 2 test. Easiest way to complete this is to do a DAS Course which does training and tests in around a week and means he will walk away with a licence.

2) Any helmet bought from a reputable supplier will be OK, as they have to comply with standards to be allowed to be sold (ECE 22.06 is the latest standard). Best to go to a local dealer rather than buying online as the fit is important for safety, not just comfort. You can pay anywhere from £100 to £1000 on a lid, with more money buying better comfort and features.

3) Gloves are essential. Hands get cold really quickly and also are often the first thing to hit the floor in an accident. Leathers are not essential, and he would probably be better with armoured jeans (look for an AA or AAA rating) and a textile motorbiking jacket. Get some proper CE-rated boots too.

4) Live in a rural area and buy an old and little-coveted bike. My Old BMW in Devon is under £100 a year to insure fully comp.

5) The most obvious pitfall for a newbie is dropping the bike. Easy to do at low speed or while pushing it around, and if it is a new bike it will be expensive to replace or repair the damaged bits.

[carinaman]

boyse7en said:

5) The most obvious pitfall for a newbie is dropping the bike. Easy to do at low speed or while pushing it around, and if it is a new bike it will be expensive to replace or repair the damaged bits.

Indeed. I don't get out enough, but the nearest I've been to dropping a bike have been stopping or when stopped be it on sloped drive ways or stopping in the nearside and putting the sidestand down when it's very near the damp, slippery edge of a ditch.


I don't know if a Varadero would appeal to thieves in London or anywhere else?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LViwhIQLSPc

Edited by carinaman on Monday 30th September 11:59

[kurokawa]

MiniMonty said:

2) Helmet - which one?

Different head, different shape, best to find a shop and try it, fitting is the key, and I would always go for full face. Weight is another issue, heavy one will put lots of strain on the neck on a long ride.

MiniMonty said:

3) Gloves and leathers - essential or a luxury?

Riding gear is essential, I had an accident where I drop my bike and got pull down roll over to next lane, nothing dramatic but enough to give me road rash and bruising. I was only wearing normal jeans and long sleeves.
Gloves is 100%, but i found textile jacket with pad is quite enough in most daily riding

MiniMonty said:

5) What are the obvious pitfalls for him to avoid as a new biker (assuming he gets a license)?

i am not some super skill rider but what i learn from my and other mistake
Over confident,
not able to predict what other road user intension

It is easy to ride a bike fast, but hard to ride it fast and safe.
Each bike have their own characters, I had years under a Monster 800 S2R, Bandit 1250, when I first jump onto the VFR800, got caught out but the throttle and weight of the bike.

Knowing what other road users are doing what their next move is key, there are lots of dash cam video where bike put him/herself in avoidable danger. We can be 100% right in the view of law but we are the one that get hurt or injuries at the end of day.

[CoreyDog]

Looks like everyone has given some great advice above.

I’d just add :-

Look at used bikes, generally cheaper to insure and first bike is most likely going to get dropped at a minimum, easy to shrug off minor scraps to fairings etc if it’s not shiny new.

When comes to helmets I use https://sharp.dft.gov.uk/ to give me an idea of the ratings and have never picked anything below 4*. Make sure he tries the helmets on first though as different brands fit different heads better. I have a Shark shaped head, tried an AGV and felt like my temples where going to be forced out my nose! Each to their own.

[towser44]

Insurance will be the biggie. I've just returned to biking after an 11 year lay off. I'm 42, held my bike licence for 24 years and have no points on licence etc and live in rural Cheshire. Insurance was higher than it was when I insured bikes the first time around, but it was VERY bike dependent. For example, cheapest quote I could get for a 2010 Triumph Sprint ST 1050 I was really interested in was £800 fully comp. A week later, I bought a 2010 Triumph Tiger 1050 and the insurance was £350 fully comp. I also looked at mid 2000s XJR1300s, Bandit 1250s and they were cheap to insure, but a 2006 Fazer 1000 was over £600. Initially my heart was set on a 2020 to 2022 V-Strom 1050, but insurance was crazy high for them as well.

Oh and 2nd hand prices are madness.

My last bike was a SV1000. I bought it in 2008 at 4 years old with 2,000 miles on the clock for £3,200 and it had every extra on it (bellypan, seat cowl, crash bungs, braided lines, hugger, nice exhausts, tail tidy etc). I looked at an identical 2003 one a couple of months ago apart from it was bog standard, with 5,000 miles on the clock and it was £4,000.

I paid £4,200 for the Tiger from a main dealer. Full Dealer Service History with 11,000 miles on the clock. Had 4 services in the last 1,500 miles including the big one checking valve clearances a few months earlier. I personally think it was expensive, but, it was the about the going rate considering the hundreds of other bikes I looked at.

Edited by towser44 on Monday 30th September 13:05

Edited by towser44 on Monday 30th September 13:08

[Steve_H80]

His first bike is going to hit the deck at some time, usually it's just a sidestand fumble but it is still depressing if it's a brand new shiny bike.
Get a used 500cc Honda, get those early fumbles over, flog it for pretty much what you paid in 6 months and then buy with your heart.

[airsafari87]

LosingGrip said:

Treat everyone as they are out to kill you.

Sorry, but that is terrible advice.

Anybody, whether they ride a motorbike, pushbike or drive a car and go around with a view that everyone is going to kill them then they shouldn’t be anywhere near the road.

[LosingGrip]

airsafari87 said:

Sorry, but that is terrible advice.

Anybody, whether they ride a motorbike, pushbike or drive a car and go around with a view that everyone is going to kill them then they shouldn’t be anywhere near the road.

Whys that then?

[Biker9090]

They will Roger him hard for insurance on a new bike like that