Lithium Ion Battery Question
Discussion
My bike generally sits most of winter without much maintenance or care, and a few years ago I bought a Li-Ion battery in the hope it lasts better over the winter than the normal batteries which don't survive a long discharge. This year however, for the first time, it was dead after winter. I jumped the bike and let it run for half an hour or so, about a month ago. Yesterday it struggled to turn the bike over, which I was surprised at as Li-Ion are normally strong and then simply stop when they're low on juice. Jumped the bike again, and took it for a ride. Stopped for an hour at the gym and the bike did start on the way home, but didn't feel like it really wanted to.
So, have I killed the Li-Ion battery over winter? If not, would putting a charger/optimiser on it help it recover full health again? And finally what do I need to do to stop this happening every year?!
So, have I killed the Li-Ion battery over winter? If not, would putting a charger/optimiser on it help it recover full health again? And finally what do I need to do to stop this happening every year?!
Its probably because the cells have got imbalanced.
You need some good DIY skills to recover it as the charger won't properly detect the particular cell at fault and therefore not charge it.
There is loads on google about it including putting it in the freezer and jumping it off another battery. I tried the 'easy' stuff like that on a Milwaukee which failed in a similar way you describe yours doing to no avail.
You need some good DIY skills to recover it as the charger won't properly detect the particular cell at fault and therefore not charge it.
There is loads on google about it including putting it in the freezer and jumping it off another battery. I tried the 'easy' stuff like that on a Milwaukee which failed in a similar way you describe yours doing to no avail.
Might just need the Battery Management System resetting, ive had similar issues with one of my lithium batteries after I let it go completely flat once. My optimate lithium charger test and maintenance cycle sorted it out and it was like new again. Optimate do a range of lithium chargers, but the smallest one works fine. I have the older model, some of their chargers will do both lead acid and lithium.
https://www.optimate.co.uk/battery-chargers/optima...
Most winters the batteries have lasted through, but then its not often that there is not a dry day once a month for a ride out, except this last year, hence I used the charger winter on each bike every 4-6 weeks to keep them topped up.
https://www.optimate.co.uk/battery-chargers/optima...
Most winters the batteries have lasted through, but then its not often that there is not a dry day once a month for a ride out, except this last year, hence I used the charger winter on each bike every 4-6 weeks to keep them topped up.
Edited by bogie on Wednesday 1st May 12:39
Ken_Code said:
One reason I aid extra for a Noco lithium battery was managing to kill the cheap one over winter. Noco claim that the management system in the battery protects them better.
As others have said, get a proper lithium charger on one and it might sort itself out.
The newest lithium I have is a Noco, been in for 2 seasons and all great. Really nice batteries, great performance. Oldest battery I have in use is a Shido lithium must be 5 years old now, and been "saved" (reset) once but otherwise good. Previously had an OEM Shido that came with my MV, that lasted 8 years until replaced with another Noco.As others have said, get a proper lithium charger on one and it might sort itself out.
I’ve had mixed results with Li-Ion bike batteries. The Shido that I put in the Triumph works well when the ambient temperature is above about 10 degrees - below that, it doesn’t really like to put out enough juice to crank the motor over. Above that temp though it’s fine, bike starts on the button. And I’ve not seen any notable voltage drop on it when laid up over winter either - it’s exactly the same now as it was when I left it in late October.
Compare that to the one that comes as standard fitment in the Fireblade (Shorai I think) and literally zero issues with that - couldn’t care less if it was 30+ degrees or in the depths of winter.
Compare that to the one that comes as standard fitment in the Fireblade (Shorai I think) and literally zero issues with that - couldn’t care less if it was 30+ degrees or in the depths of winter.
Biker's Nemesis said:
Best way to save any battery over winter is to just disconnect it.
If a battery maintainer can't be used then I'd go with this option, just disconnect the negative lead.Lithium batteries will shutdown at low temps, usually 0C but sometimes as high as 5C and not put out any volts or accept charge until they have wamed up. This is why it's generally a poor option for road vehicles unless they have integrated heating (which is what electric cars have). Race cars/bikes is not an issue as they don't usually get used in very low temperatures.
Any battery, regardless of chemistry, will fail if discharged too deeply too often. Lithium is more robust than lead-acid but not indestructable.
bogie said:
Ken_Code said:
One reason I aid extra for a Noco lithium battery was managing to kill the cheap one over winter. Noco claim that the management system in the battery protects them better.
As others have said, get a proper lithium charger on one and it might sort itself out.
The newest lithium I have is a Noco, been in for 2 seasons and all great. Really nice batteries, great performance. Oldest battery I have in use is a Shido lithium must be 5 years old now, and been "saved" (reset) once but otherwise good. Previously had an OEM Shido that came with my MV, that lasted 8 years until replaced with another Noco.As others have said, get a proper lithium charger on one and it might sort itself out.
A full charge ! I have just bought a noco for my ktm 640 after losing the ability to kickstart it , it is an awesome battery, its now with a new owner .
Biker's Nemesis said:
Best way to save any battery over winter is to just disconnect it.
Also if your garage is cold (not attached to the house like mine) and you're not riding, just take it indoors.Living in a cold environment where I don't ride for months, I take all of the batteries out of the bikes and put them in the basement in the Winter, charging them every now and then.
what brand is it? i went with antigravity as it has a low voltage cut-off. when the battery is drained beyond a certain point it has some internal circuit that isolates it. for their car versions there's a remote control for re-engaging, but with the bikes its a push button on the battery itself.
i have the opposite problem in that my bike sees 45-50deg every day in summer. the antigravity has been on for 3 years and i've never once had to charge it and its always started within 2 attempts no matter how long it's been laid up for. vtwin air cooled so not exactly an easy start either.
i have the opposite problem in that my bike sees 45-50deg every day in summer. the antigravity has been on for 3 years and i've never once had to charge it and its always started within 2 attempts no matter how long it's been laid up for. vtwin air cooled so not exactly an easy start either.
Its an Exige (?) battery. Put the Optimate on it earlier and after a while charging is now telling me the battery is fine. Seems over the next few hours it will run several tests to ascertain the health, and so hopefully by tomorrow it will know if there is any issue beyond being drained over winter. Thanks for the help.
EDIT - Exide Battery - https://www.exidegroup.com/eu/en/battery/ELTZ10S
EDIT - Exide Battery - https://www.exidegroup.com/eu/en/battery/ELTZ10S
Edited by Condi on Thursday 2nd May 19:10
https://www.exidegroup.com/eu/sites/default/files/...
Interesting that there's no mention of undervoltage protection - it must not have it. I have Earth-X batteries in two bikes and have C-Tek "comfort indicators" wired in so I can see the state of charge. Those Earth-X batteries will isolate themselves when they get down to some lower voltage (I don't know what) and you give them a belt with a dumb 12v charger to reset the isolator. My C-tek charger has a reset button but it's extremely difficult to make work.
Interesting that there's no mention of undervoltage protection - it must not have it. I have Earth-X batteries in two bikes and have C-Tek "comfort indicators" wired in so I can see the state of charge. Those Earth-X batteries will isolate themselves when they get down to some lower voltage (I don't know what) and you give them a belt with a dumb 12v charger to reset the isolator. My C-tek charger has a reset button but it's extremely difficult to make work.
It’s recommended to store lithium ion batteries at 40% to 60% as a full charge promotes faster discharge.
In theory they also prefer to be cold so as long as your bike doesn’t have a voltage drain they should be fine just left alone over a winter layup. Lead acid also discharges slower in the cold. The cold killing lead acid belief comes from the CCA being drastically reduced at cold temperatures.
That being said I’ve had a quality brand drill battery brick itself for no reason and am happy with lead acid in my bike as I know where I am with it.
In theory they also prefer to be cold so as long as your bike doesn’t have a voltage drain they should be fine just left alone over a winter layup. Lead acid also discharges slower in the cold. The cold killing lead acid belief comes from the CCA being drastically reduced at cold temperatures.
That being said I’ve had a quality brand drill battery brick itself for no reason and am happy with lead acid in my bike as I know where I am with it.
Condi said:
Been out this morning and the Optimate is still saying the battery is fine, so hopefully it just needed a decent charge and it can sit on the maintainer now until next required.
Do you know how quickly the charger went green after you plugged it in?If it was minutes rather hours you could well still have a problem.
trickywoo said:
Do you know how quickly the charger went green after you plugged it in?
If it was minutes rather hours you could well still have a problem.
Not sure, I checked it about an hour and a half, maybe 2 hours after plugging it in and it was green then, but don't think it was minutes. Not 5 mins at least.If it was minutes rather hours you could well still have a problem.
Lithium batteries have been developed a lot over the last 10 years. I remember the first Shorai I had in 2013 didn't like the cold. Sub 7 degC the first press of the starter led you to believe it was flat. However if you left the bike with the ignition on for a couple of minutes before pressing the starter, all was fine, it leaped into life, battery was fully charged. This need of "warming up" for a couple of mins seemed to be common for early adopters of various brands of lithium batteries.
Now the latest big Noco lithium battery in my Triumph does not care about the cold...well not as much as I do, it fires up at 3 deg C faster than myself and I dont tend to ride when its cooler
Now the latest big Noco lithium battery in my Triumph does not care about the cold...well not as much as I do, it fires up at 3 deg C faster than myself and I dont tend to ride when its cooler
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