What Makes a Premium Brand
Discussion
I have an S1000rr which is now 3 years old and whether or not this type of motorcycle would be your first choice you may accept that as a riding machine it is absolutely superb, and has the image of representing a 'Premium' brand. I have just had the service done and on delivering the bike was told there was a 'circlip' recall, whatever that is, and that it would be done during the service. That is now this bikes third manufacturer recall. On a previous service there was an issue with the front fork assembly, no problem say the garage there is an upgrade, this resulted in the bike having a whole brand new fork assembly. Today I have been told that the exhaust manifold 'valvey,flappy thing' is stuck and needs replacing. This necessitates a new exhaust system at a cost of £2200 plus vat plus labour. So far this 11000 mile 3 year old bike has had in excess of £4000 of repairs done to it. No skin off my nose because I have found the main dealer and the warranty to be very good. All these issues are manufacturing issues not just that I've got a one off dodgy bike. So my question BMW quality or hype?
Having had BMWs for some 6 years, its pretty much par for the course.
BMW quality now is certainly worse than the older models , the finish considerably so.
The main driver for the cost is BMWs insistence on replacing complete assemblies.
BMW dont offer seals for things like master cyclinders, water pumps….they swop out the whole thing.
Your exhaust most likely could have been repaired with the required parts but thats not the way they operate.
Ive always find the warranty and service to be excellent but owning one out of warranty can be a little bit un-nerving I find…defintley not like japanese bike ownership where I never gave a second thought to it.
BMW quality now is certainly worse than the older models , the finish considerably so.
The main driver for the cost is BMWs insistence on replacing complete assemblies.
BMW dont offer seals for things like master cyclinders, water pumps….they swop out the whole thing.
Your exhaust most likely could have been repaired with the required parts but thats not the way they operate.
Ive always find the warranty and service to be excellent but owning one out of warranty can be a little bit un-nerving I find…defintley not like japanese bike ownership where I never gave a second thought to it.
Triaguar said:
. So my question BMW quality or hype?
You've been living under a rock if you think perceived BMW quality is real. In the car world BWM has been known to be extremely flaky for years.I seem to recall the UK police force dropping BMW cars and possibly bikes because the poor build and ultimately reliability makes them dangerous.
I went from a 2002 Aprilia Mille R to a 2012 S1000RR and my first impression of the componentry and build quality was that it was pretty naff!
Light years ahead in tech and ability but when you get under the bodywork, tank, airbox etc. everything looks/feels like it's been 'value engineered' to death.
The Gen 4 is even worse, with a load of actual metal fixings being replaced with plastic clips etc.
I could forgive recalls etc. and the way they're handled could even contribute to my impression of a premium brand but, for me, premium should be the use of premium materials/finishes, well thought out and screwed together with the intention of optimum performance and maximum lifespan.
Light years ahead in tech and ability but when you get under the bodywork, tank, airbox etc. everything looks/feels like it's been 'value engineered' to death.
The Gen 4 is even worse, with a load of actual metal fixings being replaced with plastic clips etc.
I could forgive recalls etc. and the way they're handled could even contribute to my impression of a premium brand but, for me, premium should be the use of premium materials/finishes, well thought out and screwed together with the intention of optimum performance and maximum lifespan.
BMW used to produce a product that was a premium product. The old air cooled boxer twins and the early "brick" K series were better built, using higher quality components that lasted longer than most of the competition. You tended to pay more for their bikes but they lasted longer with fewer issues. There's a reason there are so many old BMWs being "sliced and diced" to make cafe racers. There are still lots of them around!
BMW bikes stopped being a premium product in the early 90's.While they are slightly better now they went through a period of being really good at putting cheap components together very well. The finish was good but things started failing very quickly, and often.
All that said, their customer service was and still is better than most others. Does better customer service make it a premium brand?.
BMW bikes stopped being a premium product in the early 90's.While they are slightly better now they went through a period of being really good at putting cheap components together very well. The finish was good but things started failing very quickly, and often.
All that said, their customer service was and still is better than most others. Does better customer service make it a premium brand?.
Are there really any premium brands in the world of mainstream motorcycles? Ducati perhaps, but even that is probably more perception than reality backed up by an expensive sticker price.
Stick with the recognised brands and there’s no such thing as a bad bike these days - just that some brands are more reliable than others, but being very reliable doesn’t qualify them as “premium”.
Stick with the recognised brands and there’s no such thing as a bad bike these days - just that some brands are more reliable than others, but being very reliable doesn’t qualify them as “premium”.
black-k1 said:
All that said, their customer service was and still is better than most others. Does better customer service make it a premium brand?.
mmm no, CS is no better than anywhere else, i thought, very naively, that buying a BMW bike would be the same experience as buying one of their cars, or at least pretending to as I leased it. It was nothing like and, I am not the only person who thought the same.buying was no different to any other dealer of any manufacturer, nothing special
H2 has not had anything wrong.
GSA has had software update/recall, circlip recall, finally had the LED light fitted (told three months – turned out to be twelve), emergency call error, roadside assistance kept wating for 5.5 hrs.
Circlip recall, is literally replacing the circlips on the foot pegs. Found two were missing off my rear footpads, parts sent me out the replacement for free, took me all of 3 mins to replace. But if yours haven't departed, then just keep an eye on them, or get the new circlips from parts and replace easy.
Exhaust flap has been an issue since 2014, have had at least 4 sets of headers on various RTs since then. There are no parts to replace or fix, it's built in. There are plenty of videos of how you can lube the flap if out of warranty, otherwise let BMW sort.
As mentioned in previous posts, all bikes have issues, even Japanese ones, it's more about how the dealers look after you that matters. I once had a 28k Harley CVO, first two years 6 recalls and 8 warranty claims, each claim, was a trip to the dealer, photos taken and then if approved take the bike back. Cost does not mean premium.
Exhaust flap has been an issue since 2014, have had at least 4 sets of headers on various RTs since then. There are no parts to replace or fix, it's built in. There are plenty of videos of how you can lube the flap if out of warranty, otherwise let BMW sort.
As mentioned in previous posts, all bikes have issues, even Japanese ones, it's more about how the dealers look after you that matters. I once had a 28k Harley CVO, first two years 6 recalls and 8 warranty claims, each claim, was a trip to the dealer, photos taken and then if approved take the bike back. Cost does not mean premium.
podman said:
Having had BMWs for some 6 years, its pretty much par for the course.
BMW quality now is certainly worse than the older models , the finish considerably so.
The main driver for the cost is BMWs insistence on replacing complete assemblies.
BMW dont offer seals for things like master cyclinders, water pumps….they swop out the whole thing.
Your exhaust most likely could have been repaired with the required parts but thats not the way they operate.
Ive always find the warranty and service to be excellent but owning one out of warranty can be a little bit un-nerving I find…defintley not like japanese bike ownership where I never gave a second thought to it.
That's horrendous, and extremely wasteful. I just replaced both inner and outer water pump seals on my Triumph for a total cost of less than a tenner, whereas it would have been £118 for the whole pump.BMW quality now is certainly worse than the older models , the finish considerably so.
The main driver for the cost is BMWs insistence on replacing complete assemblies.
BMW dont offer seals for things like master cyclinders, water pumps….they swop out the whole thing.
Your exhaust most likely could have been repaired with the required parts but thats not the way they operate.
Ive always find the warranty and service to be excellent but owning one out of warranty can be a little bit un-nerving I find…defintley not like japanese bike ownership where I never gave a second thought to it.
If the question really is “what makes a premium brand” it’s when desirability allows them to charge a premium over the competition.
Premium product would normally be made to high standards from the best materials. BMW are really a middle of the road / upper middle brand in these terms. There are other ways to view it though….
‘Premium’ may better apply to BMW for dynamics and performance. Far more so than quality or desirability.
Premium product would normally be made to high standards from the best materials. BMW are really a middle of the road / upper middle brand in these terms. There are other ways to view it though….
‘Premium’ may better apply to BMW for dynamics and performance. Far more so than quality or desirability.
I'm not entirely sure there are any "premium" brands as such beyond what they think they can charge. I've got a 1974 BMW R75 in the garage and the quality of the components is far better than the present range, it's built like a brick out house. But they were never "cheap" bikes as such there was always a premium for this.
I think manufacturers like to think premium when the talk of v4 engines, bikes packed with tech etc not so much our view that it keeps running, quality basics and your treated well by the dealer.
I think manufacturers like to think premium when the talk of v4 engines, bikes packed with tech etc not so much our view that it keeps running, quality basics and your treated well by the dealer.
In my experience it is total hype. There is no such thing as quality German enginerring, just expensive German engineering.
Even something mundane like a CB500 or a CG125 is premium to me as the things just bloody work and continue to work day in and day out.
Fancy toys and parts that fail are not conducive to a premium brand. Product testing, metalurgy, paint quality and build quality is what makes something premium to me.
I've said it before and I will say it again. After owning two K bikes (K1200R and K1300), both of which had full BMW dealer service history, I will never again own one of their bikes. I go out on my (relatively) low tech VFR1200F and I don't ever feel as though something is going to come lose/fall off/malfunction/blow up/burn out or otherwise - THAT is premium to me.
Even something mundane like a CB500 or a CG125 is premium to me as the things just bloody work and continue to work day in and day out.
Fancy toys and parts that fail are not conducive to a premium brand. Product testing, metalurgy, paint quality and build quality is what makes something premium to me.
I've said it before and I will say it again. After owning two K bikes (K1200R and K1300), both of which had full BMW dealer service history, I will never again own one of their bikes. I go out on my (relatively) low tech VFR1200F and I don't ever feel as though something is going to come lose/fall off/malfunction/blow up/burn out or otherwise - THAT is premium to me.
Edited by Biker9090 on Wednesday 8th November 12:07
Superhoop said:
Clever marketing and the desire to keep up with the Jones'
This /\I came here to post the exact same thing. Although I think there’s a clear difference between “Premium Brand” & over engineered, I’ll happily pay extra for something that’s over engineered but I’d try not to pay extra for a perceived Premium Brand product.
I've had three BMW's, and my present one is a three year old 1250 RT, which I bought as an "approved used BMW" last year. It was within the manufacturer warranty when I bought it, and had an extended BMW warranty. It went in for a service in August, and while it was being done I asked the salesman to give me a value on it against another bike. He went to the workshop to check it over, and when he came back he said he would have to lower the valuation due to corrosion on the engine. My reply was that it's within the warranty, but he said that doesn't cover corrosion. I told them that I wasn't satisfied and that I wanted them to take this up with BMW. It went back in for an inspection, with lots of photos being taken. BMW admitted that the corrosion would have been there when I bought it (approved used), but it was sold at a "reflective price". It wasn't. I paid the full sticker price. Also, when it was being serviced, and the corrosion became apparent to me, I spoke to one of the mechanics about it, and he said "if we see any corrosion while we are working on the bike, we have been told to NOT TELL THE CUSTOMER". I have now written to BMW, and asked them to confirm their policy on allowing their dealers to sell corroded bikes under the banner of "approved used", and to clarify the policy of not telling their customers about corrosion on their bikes. The complaint has now been escalated, but could take upto eight weeks. Quite frankly, they are a disgrace.
bogie said:
Surely what makes a "premium brand" these days is the fancy big show room, free coffee and biscuits, attractive reception ladies, sales guys with flash cars and a £150 ph labour rate for servicing 
Pretty much this. I will say that I think the fit and finish on Triumphs is pretty damn good. On the flip-side, Aprilia is pretty shonky in places.
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