Gore-Tex a gimmick?
Discussion
Wondering what the thoughts are on this video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGEzJJYiROk&t=...
Can't say I've personally had any issues with any of the "knock off" own brands. My Bering suit didn't let a drop of water in on last years unbelieveably wet Dragon Rally (never ridden in so much rain).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGEzJJYiROk&t=...
Can't say I've personally had any issues with any of the "knock off" own brands. My Bering suit didn't let a drop of water in on last years unbelieveably wet Dragon Rally (never ridden in so much rain).
Some very valid points in the video although I think his assessment misrepresented a key point.
Anyone who thinks you wont get wet from sweat in breathable clothing is not thinking. I worked in the garden last dry weekend in a woolen jumper. The ultimate in breathability. It was soaked with sweat.
Nothing will stop you being soaked with sweat if the air around is not able to evaporate that sweat quickly, regardless what you are wearing.
I have used a couple of garments with non-GoreTex membranes. Both leaked! Neither were expensive but that's the point. It's difficult to tell the good from the bad with the alternatives and the most expensive item is the one that doesn't work.
Anyone who thinks you wont get wet from sweat in breathable clothing is not thinking. I worked in the garden last dry weekend in a woolen jumper. The ultimate in breathability. It was soaked with sweat.
Nothing will stop you being soaked with sweat if the air around is not able to evaporate that sweat quickly, regardless what you are wearing.
I have used a couple of garments with non-GoreTex membranes. Both leaked! Neither were expensive but that's the point. It's difficult to tell the good from the bad with the alternatives and the most expensive item is the one that doesn't work.
ks off and it can’t go anywhere.All my gore-tex kit has worked really well and never leaked. The gore-tex a-like copy kit has always leaked, last item was Dainese winter leather gloves with their own waterproof membrane and they leaked as soon as they got properly wet. Same with boots, my Gore-Tex boots never leak but the copy membrane boots may as well have mesh toe covering.
Maybe it's the way gore-tex specify the garment has to be made that makes it effective ? I don't bother buying kit for the wet now unless it's gore-tex, Klim was last jacket, excellent in the storm yesterday, even at the seams it was completely dry, but for £700 and only a year old it ought to be.
Maybe it's the way gore-tex specify the garment has to be made that makes it effective ? I don't bother buying kit for the wet now unless it's gore-tex, Klim was last jacket, excellent in the storm yesterday, even at the seams it was completely dry, but for £700 and only a year old it ought to be.
Excellent video. He's absolutely correct, Gore-Tex is neither fully waterproof nor is it breathable when soaked. The DWR which in theory prevents complete wetting out is absolutely crucial to its function, which is one part of why the performance of the kit degrades over time. DWR can be refreshed with various products. But you're in a losing battle, as the integrity of the fabric itself degrades over time, making it more like an old bin liner than a new one - creases and wear points create micro and macroscopic holes, resulting in a serious performance decrement if you're working the gear hard.
Gore textiles these days are the exact same as their competitors, so the differential is just in quality of construction (particularly seams) and the durability of the DWR. Here, Gore-Tex do have a potential slight edge on the competition due to their insistence on standardised manufacturing processes. Ironically though, for a product aimed at mountaineers, the use case for Gore-tex on a motorcycle is actually a bit more robust: the amount of physical work when road riding in wet conditions is low meaning you don't get soaked with sweat, air movement can help water shed, and you have relatively light body movement and overall wear in comparison with activities like climbing and skiing.
Anecdotally I've had some potentially serious Gore-Tex fails over the years - one a very expensive pair of gloves that became soaked on the first pitch of a fairly long ice climbing route, and another more recently with a new Dainese Gore-Tex jacket. This failed in some (to be fair) completely atrocious conditions while preparing for my Mod 2. Once home I actually had to wring out the jacket's thermal liner.
The answer for hillwalkers & mountaineers at least is kit which in theory, isn't really waterproof at all. Paramo is one example, I think Keela another. Their textiles rapidly wick moisture away from the skin, while a DWR-treated hydrophobic layer of tight outer shell prevents water getting in. As I said it's not actually waterproof - sit in a puddle and you'll get a wet bum - but it's surprisingly effective, especially once you're moving and generating heat. Apparently uses the same physical principles as animal fur to move water away from the skin and minimise the water coming in. I've used this kit hillwalking and climbing year in year out in all kinds of foul weather, and have never been anything but comfortable dry and warm. I've also used it on the bike - under said Dainese jacket - and remained nice and dry despite the poor show from the outer, armoured kit.
Gore textiles these days are the exact same as their competitors, so the differential is just in quality of construction (particularly seams) and the durability of the DWR. Here, Gore-Tex do have a potential slight edge on the competition due to their insistence on standardised manufacturing processes. Ironically though, for a product aimed at mountaineers, the use case for Gore-tex on a motorcycle is actually a bit more robust: the amount of physical work when road riding in wet conditions is low meaning you don't get soaked with sweat, air movement can help water shed, and you have relatively light body movement and overall wear in comparison with activities like climbing and skiing.
Anecdotally I've had some potentially serious Gore-Tex fails over the years - one a very expensive pair of gloves that became soaked on the first pitch of a fairly long ice climbing route, and another more recently with a new Dainese Gore-Tex jacket. This failed in some (to be fair) completely atrocious conditions while preparing for my Mod 2. Once home I actually had to wring out the jacket's thermal liner.
The answer for hillwalkers & mountaineers at least is kit which in theory, isn't really waterproof at all. Paramo is one example, I think Keela another. Their textiles rapidly wick moisture away from the skin, while a DWR-treated hydrophobic layer of tight outer shell prevents water getting in. As I said it's not actually waterproof - sit in a puddle and you'll get a wet bum - but it's surprisingly effective, especially once you're moving and generating heat. Apparently uses the same physical principles as animal fur to move water away from the skin and minimise the water coming in. I've used this kit hillwalking and climbing year in year out in all kinds of foul weather, and have never been anything but comfortable dry and warm. I've also used it on the bike - under said Dainese jacket - and remained nice and dry despite the poor show from the outer, armoured kit.
I'm no stan for a multinational chemical company, but personal experience is what drives people to a given product even if the underlying tech is nothing special.
My few pieces of Gore-Tex bike gear have been 100% dry. Ditto loads of hillwalking kit over the years, and my partner has the same experience with her all-Gore bike kit.
Most of my bike gear isn't Gore Tex and quite a lot of it leaks. Including stuff that purports to be as good, like my Halvarsson's Dryway+ suit with a leaky crotch and arm seams. Yet my Alpinestars Drystar gloves and boots have been perfect.
I reckon his technical analysis might be spot on, but he's looking at the wrong thing. Perhaps their secret sauce isn't in the chemical any more but in the production controls & rules they enforce on their licensees.
Also entirely possible that I'm just lucky and many people have the exact opposite experience.
My few pieces of Gore-Tex bike gear have been 100% dry. Ditto loads of hillwalking kit over the years, and my partner has the same experience with her all-Gore bike kit.
Most of my bike gear isn't Gore Tex and quite a lot of it leaks. Including stuff that purports to be as good, like my Halvarsson's Dryway+ suit with a leaky crotch and arm seams. Yet my Alpinestars Drystar gloves and boots have been perfect.
I reckon his technical analysis might be spot on, but he's looking at the wrong thing. Perhaps their secret sauce isn't in the chemical any more but in the production controls & rules they enforce on their licensees.
Also entirely possible that I'm just lucky and many people have the exact opposite experience.
Blippy said:
I'm no stan for a multinational chemical company, but personal experience is what drives people to a given product even if the underlying tech is nothing special.
My few pieces of Gore-Tex bike gear have been 100% dry. Ditto loads of hillwalking kit over the years, and my partner has the same experience with her all-Gore bike kit.
Most of my bike gear isn't Gore Tex and quite a lot of it leaks. Including stuff that purports to be as good, like my Halvarsson's Dryway+ suit with a leaky crotch and arm seams. Yet my Alpinestars Drystar gloves and boots have been perfect.
I reckon his technical analysis might be spot on, but he's looking at the wrong thing. Perhaps their secret sauce isn't in the chemical any more but in the production controls & rules they enforce on their licensees.
Also entirely possible that I'm just lucky and many people have the exact opposite experience.
100% agree. Ever Gore-Tex alike I've tried has never been as good as the real stuff.My few pieces of Gore-Tex bike gear have been 100% dry. Ditto loads of hillwalking kit over the years, and my partner has the same experience with her all-Gore bike kit.
Most of my bike gear isn't Gore Tex and quite a lot of it leaks. Including stuff that purports to be as good, like my Halvarsson's Dryway+ suit with a leaky crotch and arm seams. Yet my Alpinestars Drystar gloves and boots have been perfect.
I reckon his technical analysis might be spot on, but he's looking at the wrong thing. Perhaps their secret sauce isn't in the chemical any more but in the production controls & rules they enforce on their licensees.
Also entirely possible that I'm just lucky and many people have the exact opposite experience.
My Spidi H2OUT jacket has never leaked, despite some proper soakings over the past couple of years use. The outer layer does seem to get water logged as it can take several hours to dry sometimes, but it sheds really effectively and more than a few people have queried why my jacket is "dry" after I've come in from the pissing rain. Dry, warm, comfortable and half the price (or less) than GoreTex; what would I get from paying more?
I've got some old boots. Bought them when I passed my full test in 2006 (secondhand) and used them everyday for a few years and still use them now.
They've never leaked and are Goretex.
Whereas for hill walking I prefer no waterproof liner just good quality leather otherwise feet get too sweaty.
They've never leaked and are Goretex.
Whereas for hill walking I prefer no waterproof liner just good quality leather otherwise feet get too sweaty.
My cheapo RST pants gave up the ghost this summer after 7 years abuse, but they have been getting a little leaky in extended heavy rain for a couple of years.
Out of curiosity I chopped them apart to see why I was getting a very wet arse. The tape on the crotch seams had split apart, although the legs were still fine. This is understandable I suppose, the crotch will get pulled about more stretching to get on or off the bike and moving about while travelling.
Gortex are very brand protective so I imagine they are strict about the quality of seam taping.
Out of curiosity I chopped them apart to see why I was getting a very wet arse. The tape on the crotch seams had split apart, although the legs were still fine. This is understandable I suppose, the crotch will get pulled about more stretching to get on or off the bike and moving about while travelling.
Gortex are very brand protective so I imagine they are strict about the quality of seam taping.
Goretex is worth the premium for the warranty also.
I've not purchased winter gloves for nearly 10yrs as they've started to leak at 3yrs and then been replaced free of charge by goretex to the latest equivalent model. They ask a few questions but haven't declined the warranty, these are heavily used year round commuter service.
Doubt you'd get that service from own brand equivalents...
I've not purchased winter gloves for nearly 10yrs as they've started to leak at 3yrs and then been replaced free of charge by goretex to the latest equivalent model. They ask a few questions but haven't declined the warranty, these are heavily used year round commuter service.
Doubt you'd get that service from own brand equivalents...
I did Geology at university, which meant a lot of field work in all sorts of weathers (including snow in the Scottish Highlands...in May). The only thing I've come across that wasn't Gore-Tex that was reliably all day waterproof was Decathlon stuff - and they don't make motorcycle kit.
As an instructor I'd say everything that wasn't Gore-Tex wasn't waterproof on the motorcycle clothing market, not if you're out all day.
That said, like a helmet, it is waterproof versus a reference standard for waterproof clothing (10,000 mm of water). FortNine did an older video showing just how much better Gore-Tex was than some own brand membranes - the current one he tests at at 28,000 mm of water which is a bucket load more.
Also, it doesn't stop you sweating in hot weather, it just helps it get out. If you're in the jungle you're going to sweat. I didn't think this video was up to his usual standards to be honest.
So whilst their business practices don't seem delightful, if I want to guarantee to stay dry, I know where my money needs to go.
As an instructor I'd say everything that wasn't Gore-Tex wasn't waterproof on the motorcycle clothing market, not if you're out all day.
That said, like a helmet, it is waterproof versus a reference standard for waterproof clothing (10,000 mm of water). FortNine did an older video showing just how much better Gore-Tex was than some own brand membranes - the current one he tests at at 28,000 mm of water which is a bucket load more.
Also, it doesn't stop you sweating in hot weather, it just helps it get out. If you're in the jungle you're going to sweat. I didn't think this video was up to his usual standards to be honest.
So whilst their business practices don't seem delightful, if I want to guarantee to stay dry, I know where my money needs to go.
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