No Fault Claims
Discussion
Some Background:
Went for a ride on Sunday and got knocked off my bike. Stationary traffic in a village. Filtering at around 10 mph, my mate was in front of me, and in between him and me, one of the cars decided to pull out and turn right. No mirror, no signal.
Big bruise on my left forearm where the car hit me. Bike dropped on its right hand side and lots of scratches and scuffs in the usual places - crank cover, brake lever, exhaust, handlebar etc.
The chap who hit me didn't have great English, but he was suitably apologetic. Checked out I was okay, admitted it was his fault, and we exchanged details.
I called him later on Sunday and on Monday with no answer then received a WhatsApp message from him, saying he wasn't prepared to argue on the phone and he would be pursuing it with his insurance company. I get a very strong feeling he's going to now say he was indicating and blame me.
So I called my Insurance company just to inform me of the incident and they gave me two options, 1: issue a claim on ,my own policy or 2: pursue a non-full claim. Naturally, I selected option 2. They gave me the impression they were putting me through to a different department, when, in fact, they were putting me through to a third-party claims handler. Now this handler, it says they will only pick my case up if I take one of the following services from them - loss of earnings claim, a loan bike, have them repair the bike or a personal injury claim.
The bike is rideable, and it would be disingenuous to pursue either of the other options, as I'm not that badly injured and it hasn't affected me working. How's the world gone mad? It seems I either have to over, inflate a third-party claim and take this chap to court or claim on my own insurance.
I'd be interested if anyone has got any experience in this about what my next move might be. Bike is in with my local Triumph dealer today. Had I dropped it myself I would probably replace the crank cover and a brake lever and get a cheap bar end. Probably £200 - £250. My dealer says that if everything that is damaged is to be replaced, it's going to be about £2,000.
Went for a ride on Sunday and got knocked off my bike. Stationary traffic in a village. Filtering at around 10 mph, my mate was in front of me, and in between him and me, one of the cars decided to pull out and turn right. No mirror, no signal.
Big bruise on my left forearm where the car hit me. Bike dropped on its right hand side and lots of scratches and scuffs in the usual places - crank cover, brake lever, exhaust, handlebar etc.
The chap who hit me didn't have great English, but he was suitably apologetic. Checked out I was okay, admitted it was his fault, and we exchanged details.
I called him later on Sunday and on Monday with no answer then received a WhatsApp message from him, saying he wasn't prepared to argue on the phone and he would be pursuing it with his insurance company. I get a very strong feeling he's going to now say he was indicating and blame me.
So I called my Insurance company just to inform me of the incident and they gave me two options, 1: issue a claim on ,my own policy or 2: pursue a non-full claim. Naturally, I selected option 2. They gave me the impression they were putting me through to a different department, when, in fact, they were putting me through to a third-party claims handler. Now this handler, it says they will only pick my case up if I take one of the following services from them - loss of earnings claim, a loan bike, have them repair the bike or a personal injury claim.
The bike is rideable, and it would be disingenuous to pursue either of the other options, as I'm not that badly injured and it hasn't affected me working. How's the world gone mad? It seems I either have to over, inflate a third-party claim and take this chap to court or claim on my own insurance.
I'd be interested if anyone has got any experience in this about what my next move might be. Bike is in with my local Triumph dealer today. Had I dropped it myself I would probably replace the crank cover and a brake lever and get a cheap bar end. Probably £200 - £250. My dealer says that if everything that is damaged is to be replaced, it's going to be about £2,000.
It's what fully comp insurance is for, in your situation, I would claim on my own cover. If they assess the accident as being the driver's fault, it will be classed as a non-fault at a later date. If you had just dropped it, or it had been hit whilst parked, or stolen, these are also 'non-fault' claims.
The issue will be if he denies turning without indicating when sent a claim form. Do you have any witnesses?
If it was very minor damage to his car, he may not have claimed so contact from your insurance firm to his will be needed. If he turns out to be uninsured (or not insured correctly, eg licence or name driver issues), depending on the company it may also be classed as non-fault.
I have a bike too, so I can understand your frustration that you may lose NCD for an accident not your own fault.
The issue will be if he denies turning without indicating when sent a claim form. Do you have any witnesses?
If it was very minor damage to his car, he may not have claimed so contact from your insurance firm to his will be needed. If he turns out to be uninsured (or not insured correctly, eg licence or name driver issues), depending on the company it may also be classed as non-fault.
I have a bike too, so I can understand your frustration that you may lose NCD for an accident not your own fault.
Similar experience but on a pushbike. In this case I contacted the other persons insurance company and dealt with them directly.
The other party refused all contact from their own insurance company so it was settled in my favour. This approach would at least allow you to see if your other party still accepts fault, if they do it should be possible to claim directly against them.
The other party refused all contact from their own insurance company so it was settled in my favour. This approach would at least allow you to see if your other party still accepts fault, if they do it should be possible to claim directly against them.
sixor8 said:
It's what fully comp insurance is for, in your situation, I would claim on my own cover. If they assess the accident as being the driver's fault, it will be classed as a non-fault at a later date. If you had just dropped it, or it had been hit whilst parked, or stolen, these are also 'non-fault' claims.
The issue will be if he denies turning without indicating when sent a claim form. Do you have any witnesses?
If it was very minor damage to his car, he may not have claimed so contact from your insurance firm to his will be needed. If he turns out to be uninsured (or not insured correctly, eg licence or name driver issues), depending on the company it may also be classed as non-fault.
I have a bike too, so I can understand your frustration that you may lose NCD for an accident not your own fault.
Maybe I’m unrealistic but losing my NCD for this seems very unfair. The issue will be if he denies turning without indicating when sent a claim form. Do you have any witnesses?
If it was very minor damage to his car, he may not have claimed so contact from your insurance firm to his will be needed. If he turns out to be uninsured (or not insured correctly, eg licence or name driver issues), depending on the company it may also be classed as non-fault.
I have a bike too, so I can understand your frustration that you may lose NCD for an accident not your own fault.
Moulder said:
Similar experience but on a pushbike. In this case I contacted the other persons insurance company and dealt with them directly.
The other party refused all contact from their own insurance company so it was settled in my favour. This approach would at least allow you to see if your other party still accepts fault, if they do it should be possible to claim directly against them.
That’s not a bad shout. How would I find out who he’s insured with? The other party refused all contact from their own insurance company so it was settled in my favour. This approach would at least allow you to see if your other party still accepts fault, if they do it should be possible to claim directly against them.
I'd always take the loan bike - as it becomes an incentive for the insurance companies to complete the claim sooner.
Not trying to apportion blame here - but is a crash while filtering always a non-fault claim? I was under the impression it would be shared responsibility due to the nature of it.
Not trying to apportion blame here - but is a crash while filtering always a non-fault claim? I was under the impression it would be shared responsibility due to the nature of it.
Lambo FirstBlood said:
Moulder said:
Similar experience but on a pushbike. In this case I contacted the other persons insurance company and dealt with them directly.
The other party refused all contact from their own insurance company so it was settled in my favour. This approach would at least allow you to see if your other party still accepts fault, if they do it should be possible to claim directly against them.
That’s not a bad shout. How would I find out who he’s insured with? The other party refused all contact from their own insurance company so it was settled in my favour. This approach would at least allow you to see if your other party still accepts fault, if they do it should be possible to claim directly against them.
If you want to go full Columbo you could also go back and see if any little shops CCTV or people with ring doorbells have a view of the accident.
Lambo FirstBlood said:
Maybe I’m unrealistic but losing my NCD for this seems very unfair.
Not really though as that's what insurance is for and how it works. If it's a slam dunk no fault claim with the other party admitting liability then it's simple to claim directly from them via their insurers. Anything else (and as someone has said it'll more than likely be contested and go 50/50) and that's what your insurance is for.Moulder said:
Lambo FirstBlood said:
Moulder said:
Similar experience but on a pushbike. In this case I contacted the other persons insurance company and dealt with them directly.
The other party refused all contact from their own insurance company so it was settled in my favour. This approach would at least allow you to see if your other party still accepts fault, if they do it should be possible to claim directly against them.
That’s not a bad shout. How would I find out who he’s insured with? The other party refused all contact from their own insurance company so it was settled in my favour. This approach would at least allow you to see if your other party still accepts fault, if they do it should be possible to claim directly against them.
If you want to go full Columbo you could also go back and see if any little shops CCTV or people with ring doorbells have a view of the accident.
I have ridden back up there and checked for CCTV and knocked on a couple of doors opposite too.
I don’t concede I’m 50% responsible here. Traffic was stationery and I’m always very cautious when filtering and there was no indication whatsoever this car was turning right until he turned right. Ironically, if I was traveling at double the speed, I probably would have got past him in time!
Put a claim in with your insurance, but if he disputes then they will most likely settle based on existing caselaw Pell Vs Moseley, he should have noticed you before making the turn, but you should have also been careful overtaking at a junction, and should have been ready for someone to turn into the junction, so thats how the portion blame.
https://www.motorcyclelawscotland.co.uk/caselaw/pe...
https://www.motorcyclelawscotland.co.uk/caselaw/pe...
Lambo FirstBlood said:
I’m cross with myself for not putting more effort in to witness statements at the time.
I have ridden back up there and checked for CCTV and knocked on a couple of doors opposite too.
I don’t concede I’m 50% responsible here. Traffic was stationery and I’m always very cautious when filtering and there was no indication whatsoever this car was turning right until he turned right. Ironically, if I was traveling at double the speed, I probably would have got past him in time!
Personally, I'd be dubious that any insurance process will go 100% in your favour.I have ridden back up there and checked for CCTV and knocked on a couple of doors opposite too.
I don’t concede I’m 50% responsible here. Traffic was stationery and I’m always very cautious when filtering and there was no indication whatsoever this car was turning right until he turned right. Ironically, if I was traveling at double the speed, I probably would have got past him in time!
A stationary car cannot turn right.
I think bikes filtering have in the past been held to be at least partly to blame for not anticipating where a car may move out of its lane.
The mere fact that there is somewhere to turn right into is an indication that a car may turn right.
Was this a road junction, or did he turn right into a driveway?
Personally my excess is £300, so I would just do the £250 fix and move on.
But where does that leave you in terms of de-valuing the bike?
If you get involved with claims management companies and don't win 100%, what's the consequences?
Can you end up owing them money?
Basically unless you have rock solid witnesses, you have to assume people may see the events differently and/or lie.
Killboy said:
I'd always take the loan bike - as it becomes an incentive for the insurance companies to complete the claim sooner.
Not trying to apportion blame here - but is a crash while filtering always a non-fault claim? I was under the impression it would be shared responsibility due to the nature of it.
Never take the so called loan bike unless your bike is unrideable and you need to have a bike to use, you can end up with a sizeable bill to pay otherwise. That's how some of these claims handling firms make their money by charging ridiculous bike hire prices. Not trying to apportion blame here - but is a crash while filtering always a non-fault claim? I was under the impression it would be shared responsibility due to the nature of it.
When I was rammed off mt MT09 five years ago they tried to get me to take a hire bike, when I told them I did not want one they then refused to pick the bike up for assessment and possible repair.
Claims handling firms are a good part of the reason why vehicle insurance costs are sky rocketing, it was a lot easier when you made a claim and your insurance company told you to get a couple of quotes from local garages and sorted it all out for you in house.
I've pursued such claims myself, directly with the other party's insurer
Presumably your mate would be a witness so it should be an easy win
The last time was for a minor shunt in traffic I was only claiming for a rear bumper and as they started to drag their feet I said "it's funny but whilst you're dragging this out my neck is starting to ache" I had a cheque through within days
Presumably your mate would be a witness so it should be an easy win
The last time was for a minor shunt in traffic I was only claiming for a rear bumper and as they started to drag their feet I said "it's funny but whilst you're dragging this out my neck is starting to ache" I had a cheque through within days
Onelastattempt said:
Never take the so called loan bike unless your bike is unrideable and you need to have a bike to use, you can end up with a sizeable bill to pay otherwise. That's how some of these claims handling firms make their money by charging ridiculous bike hire prices.
When I was rammed off mt MT09 five years ago they tried to get me to take a hire bike, when I told them I did not want one they then refused to pick the bike up for assessment and possible repair.
Claims handling firms are a good part of the reason why vehicle insurance costs are sky rocketing, it was a lot easier when you made a claim and your insurance company told you to get a couple of quotes from local garages and sorted it all out for you in house.
A mates experience was the opposite of this. But each to their own.When I was rammed off mt MT09 five years ago they tried to get me to take a hire bike, when I told them I did not want one they then refused to pick the bike up for assessment and possible repair.
Claims handling firms are a good part of the reason why vehicle insurance costs are sky rocketing, it was a lot easier when you made a claim and your insurance company told you to get a couple of quotes from local garages and sorted it all out for you in house.
OutInTheShed said:
Personally, I'd be dubious that any insurance process will go 100% in your favour.
A stationary car cannot turn right.
I think bikes filtering have in the past been held to be at least partly to blame for not anticipating where a car may move out of its lane.
The mere fact that there is somewhere to turn right into is an indication that a car may turn right.
Was this a road junction, or did he turn right into a driveway?
Personally my excess is £300, so I would just do the £250 fix and move on.
But where does that leave you in terms of de-valuing the bike?
If you get involved with claims management companies and don't win 100%, what's the consequences?
Can you end up owing them money?
Basically unless you have rock solid witnesses, you have to assume people may see the events differently and/or lie.
He was stationary in traffic and turned right into a pub car park. I accept we take some responsibility on bikes when filtering, but I was very careful, and he turned out of a traffic jam without signaling or looking in his mirror.A stationary car cannot turn right.
I think bikes filtering have in the past been held to be at least partly to blame for not anticipating where a car may move out of its lane.
The mere fact that there is somewhere to turn right into is an indication that a car may turn right.
Was this a road junction, or did he turn right into a driveway?
Personally my excess is £300, so I would just do the £250 fix and move on.
But where does that leave you in terms of de-valuing the bike?
If you get involved with claims management companies and don't win 100%, what's the consequences?
Can you end up owing them money?
Basically unless you have rock solid witnesses, you have to assume people may see the events differently and/or lie.
I’ve had the bike looked over by Triumph and I was delusional on all the damage. Apparently the front wheel is buckled and there’s lots of minor damage on the left-hand side of the bike, including bent gearshift and bent clutch lever. The quote is over £4600!
I don’t need the loan bike, but the dealer said to me if I don’t take the long bike, it will be very hard for any accident claims company to help me!
I can see this is why everybody’s insurance is so high, but my insurance has given me two options - either process a claim in my own policy or use their appointed accident claims partner to pursue a no-fault claim and that company has in turn said they will only help me with that if I take the loan bike.
Onelastattempt said:
Killboy said:
I'd always take the loan bike - as it becomes an incentive for the insurance companies to complete the claim sooner.
Not trying to apportion blame here - but is a crash while filtering always a non-fault claim? I was under the impression it would be shared responsibility due to the nature of it.
Never take the so called loan bike unless your bike is unrideable and you need to have a bike to use, you can end up with a sizeable bill to pay otherwise. That's how some of these claims handling firms make their money by charging ridiculous bike hire prices. Not trying to apportion blame here - but is a crash while filtering always a non-fault claim? I was under the impression it would be shared responsibility due to the nature of it.
When I was rammed off mt MT09 five years ago they tried to get me to take a hire bike, when I told them I did not want one they then refused to pick the bike up for assessment and possible repair.
Claims handling firms are a good part of the reason why vehicle insurance costs are sky rocketing, it was a lot easier when you made a claim and your insurance company told you to get a couple of quotes from local garages and sorted it all out for you in house.
OutInTheShed said:
Lambo FirstBlood said:
I’m cross with myself for not putting more effort in to witness statements at the time.
I have ridden back up there and checked for CCTV and knocked on a couple of doors opposite too.
I don’t concede I’m 50% responsible here. Traffic was stationery and I’m always very cautious when filtering and there was no indication whatsoever this car was turning right until he turned right. Ironically, if I was traveling at double the speed, I probably would have got past him in time!
Personally, I'd be dubious that any insurance process will go 100% in your favour.I have ridden back up there and checked for CCTV and knocked on a couple of doors opposite too.
I don’t concede I’m 50% responsible here. Traffic was stationery and I’m always very cautious when filtering and there was no indication whatsoever this car was turning right until he turned right. Ironically, if I was traveling at double the speed, I probably would have got past him in time!
A stationary car cannot turn right.
I think bikes filtering have in the past been held to be at least partly to blame for not anticipating where a car may move out of its lane.
The mere fact that there is somewhere to turn right into is an indication that a car may turn right.
Was this a road junction, or did he turn right into a driveway?
Personally my excess is £300, so I would just do the £250 fix and move on.
But where does that leave you in terms of de-valuing the bike?
If you get involved with claims management companies and don't win 100%, what's the consequences?
Can you end up owing them money?
Basically unless you have rock solid witnesses, you have to assume people may see the events differently and/or lie.
It’s also a good question about what happens if I do pass you through a claims company rack up a bill on loan bikes, and then the liability is split in court. I’ll ask that question tomorrow.
The bike is a three month old speed triple 1200 RR so not doing the work would have a big impact on the value of the bike and a reflection I’m not willing to do that certainly now I know there’s a lot more damage than I initially anticipated.
Lambo FirstBlood said:
He was stationary in traffic and turned right into a pub car park. I accept we take some responsibility on bikes when filtering, but I was very careful, and he turned out of a traffic jam without signaling or looking in his mirror.
I’ve had the bike looked over by Triumph and I was delusional on all the damage. Apparently the front wheel is buckled and there’s lots of minor damage on the left-hand side of the bike, including bent gearshift and bent clutch lever. The quote is over £4600!
I don’t need the loan bike, but the dealer said to me if I don’t take the long bike, it will be very hard for any accident claims company to help me!
I can see this is why everybody’s insurance is so high, but my insurance has given me two options - either process a claim in my own policy or use their appointed accident claims partner to pursue a no-fault claim and that company has in turn said they will only help me with that if I take the loan bike.
You need to understand where you will be if you don't 100% win.I’ve had the bike looked over by Triumph and I was delusional on all the damage. Apparently the front wheel is buckled and there’s lots of minor damage on the left-hand side of the bike, including bent gearshift and bent clutch lever. The quote is over £4600!
I don’t need the loan bike, but the dealer said to me if I don’t take the long bike, it will be very hard for any accident claims company to help me!
I can see this is why everybody’s insurance is so high, but my insurance has given me two options - either process a claim in my own policy or use their appointed accident claims partner to pursue a no-fault claim and that company has in turn said they will only help me with that if I take the loan bike.
Claims companies are not charities. They are 200% in it to make money.
Who is paying them? If it ain't 100% the other bloke, it's at least partly YOU.
One view of the matter is that you were overtaking a car when it turned right.
There is a lot of onus on the overtaker.
Can you prove he didn't indicate?
Can you prove how fast you were going?
If he says he looked but didn't see you, that does not put you 100% in the right.
One of my rules of filtering is that cars can only be relied on not to turn when they are jammed by being too close to the car in front.
If they start to leave space that's often a clue that they intend to turn.
You've had the incident now, so you have the joy of explaining it to every broker when you want a car or bike quote for the next 5 years.
I would suggest some research into the true cost of just claiming on your own insurance, vs taking on the other guy's insurer and 100% winning or it turning into a s
tfest. Even 100% 'winning' affects your costs. It's a while since I've been there and everyone's 'risk' is viewed differently, but I'd suggest a bit of research into where you'll stand according to how the blame might get shared. Get some quotes for your bike and car with various outcomes declared and weigh it up. If you can talk to an actual 'broker who knows' better still.Lambo FirstBlood said:
I think your point about filtering when there’s a right hand junction is a really good one and I’m always really mindful of that and would rarely filter without stopping just behind a car closest to the junction, but I didn’t see your entrance to the pub as a bona fide junction particular for someone in the middle of the traffic jam.
The legal position on filtering is defined in case law and the filtering bike is better protected in law than you might think. This is why the Highway Code now says specifically to look out for filtering bikes.As said above, talk to a solicitor who knows the law around motorcycles. If they don't think you have a case they'll tell you. If they think you have a case they'll likely recover all your costs.
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