WSB 2024 combined weight limits

[slopes]

With the announcemement that there will be a combined rider and machine weight limit introduced next year, how do we think this will affect the championship?
Will Bautista be penalised for being small and having the best bike?
Will it bring the races much closer and stop the potential runaway that has been this season and last?
Is this one more title for Bautista and Ducati before he says, okay enough is enough, i'm off elsewhere?

It will potentially make things far more exciting if they are going to be that much closer and maybe the moves by Toprak And Rea are not as daft as they might seem initially

[the cueball]

Race 2 last time out was decided with a 0.126 second gap..

not sure how much closer they want it!

[Tam_Mullen]

the cueball said:

Race 2 last time out was decided with a 0.126 second gap..

not sure how much closer they want it!

Those are the facts, but not the story if that makes sense. Toprak lead those last few laps from turn 1 to turn 15 (i.e the whole lap) but when they get to the straight Alvaro just blasted past like Wile E. Coyote on an Acme rocket.

On the whole I'm in favour of minimum weights, but I am interested to see how it affects those that need to add weight to their bikes. I feel like a little guy like Alvaro with a weighted bike would be at a disadvantage on change of directions vs Scott Redding (for example) who doesnt need to add any weight,

[slopes]

Tam_Mullen said:

the cueball said:

Race 2 last time out was decided with a 0.126 second gap..

not sure how much closer they want it!

Those are the facts, but not the story if that makes sense. Toprak lead those last few laps from turn 1 to turn 15 (i.e the whole lap) but when they get to the straight Alvaro just blasted past like Wile E. Coyote on an Acme rocket.

On the whole I'm in favour of minimum weights, but I am interested to see how it affects those that need to add weight to their bikes. I feel like a little guy like Alvaro with a weighted bike would be at a disadvantage on change of directions vs Scott Redding (for example) who doesnt need to add any weight,

And also, how much is the minimum going to be? Lets say the bike weighs for arguments sake 150kg. and the minimum has to be 250kg. Well Bautista weighs about 50kg or so as opposed to someone like Redding who probably weighs over 75kg, so that would in effect add 50kg of ballast to Bautista which is going to seriously hamper his overall performance as opposed to someone who may only have to add 10kg or so.

These are just random figures that i've made up for the purpose of this post, i don't think the actual weights have been mentioned yet but you have to think the likes of Redding, Rea, Razgatlioglou etc are going to be far better off out of this deal than Bautista.

[Tango13]

slopes said:

And also, how much is the minimum going to be? Lets say the bike weighs for arguments sake 150kg. and the minimum has to be 250kg. Well Bautista weighs about 50kg or so as opposed to someone like Redding who probably weighs over 75kg, so that would in effect add 50kg of ballast to Bautista which is going to seriously hamper his overall performance as opposed to someone who may only have to add 10kg or so.

These are just random figures that i've made up for the purpose of this post, i don't think the actual weights have been mentioned yet but you have to think the likes of Redding, Rea, Razgatlioglou etc are going to be far better off out of this deal than Bautista.

I agree with all of that which also begs the question, where do you put all the ballast?

You can gain some weight by swapping titanium fasteners etc to steel but the gain there will be minimal.

Heavier wheels? Good idea in theory but the reality is an adverse effect of steering and handling.

Use thicker metal for the frame? A stronger frame isn't always a good thing if it ends up too rigid.

Not sure if any of the bikes are using magnesium for their engine casings? Any team running magnesium engines can probably gain about 5kg there at the expense of binning large numbers of engines.

This leaves the one option no race team wants to contemplate, bolting lumps of tungsten to the bike. The one place you want to add weight with the minimal effect is right in the middle, an area already crammed full for the same reasons

[HybridTheory]

Maybe it’ll be lip service and the combined weight will be really quite low

[Zarco]

Tam_Mullen said:

the cueball said:

Race 2 last time out was decided with a 0.126 second gap..

not sure how much closer they want it!

Those are the facts, but not the story if that makes sense. Toprak lead those last few laps from turn 1 to turn 15 (i.e the whole lap) but when they get to the straight Alvaro just blasted past like Wile E. Coyote on an Acme rocket.

On the whole I'm in favour of minimum weights, but I am interested to see how it affects those that need to add weight to their bikes. I feel like a little guy like Alvaro with a weighted bike would be at a disadvantage on change of directions vs Scott Redding (for example) who doesnt need to add any weight,

I'm in favour and was calling for this last year when Bautista was smashing everyone. Although I do think Bautista is making the biggest difference with his skill, rather than just being light. So whether minimum weight limits are actually fair or not is debatable. Be interesting to see how much difference it actually makes.

RE that last race at Portimao. Fantastic entertainment and I really enjoyed it, but afterwards I did wonder why Bautista didn't just follow Toprak round until the last corner and make the pass. The multiple passes every lap seemed a bit pointless with hindsight!

[slopes]

Tango13 said:

slopes said:

And also, how much is the minimum going to be? Lets say the bike weighs for arguments sake 150kg. and the minimum has to be 250kg. Well Bautista weighs about 50kg or so as opposed to someone like Redding who probably weighs over 75kg, so that would in effect add 50kg of ballast to Bautista which is going to seriously hamper his overall performance as opposed to someone who may only have to add 10kg or so.

These are just random figures that i've made up for the purpose of this post, i don't think the actual weights have been mentioned yet but you have to think the likes of Redding, Rea, Razgatlioglou etc are going to be far better off out of this deal than Bautista.

I agree with all of that which also begs the question, where do you put all the ballast?

You can gain some weight by swapping titanium fasteners etc to steel but the gain there will be minimal.

Heavier wheels? Good idea in theory but the reality is an adverse effect of steering and handling.

Use thicker metal for the frame? A stronger frame isn't always a good thing if it ends up too rigid.

Not sure if any of the bikes are using magnesium for their engine casings? Any team running magnesium engines can probably gain about 5kg there at the expense of binning large numbers of engines.

This leaves the one option no race team wants to contemplate, bolting lumps of tungsten to the bike. The one place you want to add weight with the minimal effect is right in the middle, an area already crammed full for the same reasons

I think once we know what the minimum will be, it will all become clearer. It might only be a minimal amount but then it still penalises the likes of Redding who is a big lump compared to bautista who looks like he weighs the same as one of my hiking boots.
It is a bit harsh on Bautista who through no fault of his own has been the dominant force the last two seasons but i guess the organisers want to see closer racing instead of him disappearing and then every concentrating on the fight for second and third place, although if you believe Toprak the BMW has some serious pace so he might be that much closer next season.
We shall soon see but yeah, if it comes down to needing to add say 20kg to Bautista's overall weight, where do you add it? And how do you add it, is it like you said bolting Tungsten to the bike, or can certain things be swapped out for other materials?

[rodericb]

Tam_Mullen said:

the cueball said:

Race 2 last time out was decided with a 0.126 second gap..

not sure how much closer they want it!

Those are the facts, but not the story if that makes sense. Toprak lead those last few laps from turn 1 to turn 15 (i.e the whole lap) but when they get to the straight Alvaro just blasted past like Wile E. Coyote on an Acme rocket.

On the whole I'm in favour of minimum weights, but I am interested to see how it affects those that need to add weight to their bikes. I feel like a little guy like Alvaro with a weighted bike would be at a disadvantage on change of directions vs Scott Redding (for example) who doesnt need to add any weight,

And if the track was run the other way then Toprak may have been the winner. The thing is that Bautista and Ducati are both in top form. Ducati built a bike suited to superbike and they drew from MotoGP to do so. Where would Bautista be if they were still on the v-twin? Next year Toprak will be on the BMW, which is said to be pretty strong. And don't forget virtually six in a row championships by Rea/Kawasaki - were people squealing as hard back then as they are now about Bautista and Ducati?

[slopes]

rodericb said:

Tam_Mullen said:

the cueball said:

Race 2 last time out was decided with a 0.126 second gap..

not sure how much closer they want it!

Those are the facts, but not the story if that makes sense. Toprak lead those last few laps from turn 1 to turn 15 (i.e the whole lap) but when they get to the straight Alvaro just blasted past like Wile E. Coyote on an Acme rocket.

On the whole I'm in favour of minimum weights, but I am interested to see how it affects those that need to add weight to their bikes. I feel like a little guy like Alvaro with a weighted bike would be at a disadvantage on change of directions vs Scott Redding (for example) who doesnt need to add any weight,

And if the track was run the other way then Toprak may have been the winner. The thing is that Bautista and Ducati are both in top form. Ducati built a bike suited to superbike and they drew from MotoGP to do so. Where would Bautista be if they were still on the v-twin? Next year Toprak will be on the BMW, which is said to be pretty strong. And don't forget virtually six in a row championships by Rea/Kawasaki - were people squealing as hard back then as they are now about Bautista and Ducati?

I think part of the problem is the apparent disparity in the way the bikes have been hampered by reductions in rev limits.
According to Rea, Kawasaki were docked 1400rpm over the period he was dominant, yet Ducati have only been docked 500rpm. Okay granted they have only won last year and almost certainly this year and i am sure if Bautista naffs off again next year they will deduct more revs but you can kind of understand people wanting him to be pegged back when you see the disparity like that.

However, kind of like Verstappen in F1, what is Bautista supposed to do if he is in the form of his life as far as WSBK goes and on the best bike? Ride slower? stop every other lap for a breather? So i get your point and i agree, he is in top form and on the best bike so he is making hay while the sun shines.

[Fundoreen]

The new weight thing reminds me of the opposite at the airport. Your are .2kg over on your hand luggage and they want to charge you. Meanwhile the giant fat bd behind you gets off scott free . Enought of those fkers check in and your plane cant get off the ground lol.
Apologises to the sensetive of fuller figure.
As for WSBK 2024, I welcome it to see what happens. Maybe someone anonymous down the grid would suddenly be running top 3 all the time.
Why the hell should 10-15 teams spend millions participating when some whippet clears off all the time.
As for how they do it, I cant see where you hide say 30kg plates of metal. Even in the belly pan.
Just run a bike off the showroom floor I guess.

[slopes]

Fundoreen said:

The new weight thing reminds me of the opposite at the airport. Your are .2kg over on your hand luggage and they want to charge you. Meanwhile the giant fat bd behind you gets off scott free . Enought of those fkers check in and your plane cant get off the ground lol.
Apologises to the sensetive of fuller figure.
As for WSBK 2024, I welcome it to see what happens. Maybe someone anonymous down the grid would suddenly be running top 3 all the time.
Why the hell should 10-15 teams spend millions participating when some whippet clears off all the time.
As for how they do it, I cant see where you hide say 30kg plates of metal. Even in the belly pan.
Just run a bike off the showroom floor I guess.

Good point but the Ducati V4R from the showroom floor is still a pretty fast motorcycle.
I did a bit of checking into this to see about weights

So Bautista weighs 60kg. Redding weighs 90kg. The Ducati weighs somewhere around the 194kg weight on the grid, so with Buatista onboard it is approximately 246kg.
The BMW M1000RR weigh approximately 191kg on the grid, so with Redding on board will be approximately 281kg a difference of 35kg.
Then Ducati can then feel rightly aggrieved that they are being punished for making a better bike than everyone else but it might make things a lot more interesting next year.
Ducati pegged back a bit, BMW with Toprak on board what is allegedly a missile, Rea on an improved R1 and Bassani on the ZX10 which i have no doubt Kawasaki will want to pep up a bit to make Rea realise he should have stayed.
Has all the hallmarks on paper of a vintage season.

[rodericb]

Fundoreen said:

The new weight thing reminds me of the opposite at the airport. Your are .2kg over on your hand luggage and they want to charge you. Meanwhile the giant fat bd behind you gets off scott free . Enought of those fkers check in and your plane cant get off the ground lol.
Apologises to the sensetive of fuller figure.
As for WSBK 2024, I welcome it to see what happens. Maybe someone anonymous down the grid would suddenly be running top 3 all the time.
Why the hell should 10-15 teams spend millions participating when some whippet clears off all the time.
As for how they do it, I cant see where you hide say 30kg plates of metal. Even in the belly pan.
Just run a bike off the showroom floor I guess.

Those teams could hire a whippet too. The good thing with this discussion is that Honda hired the whippet and he didn't win so much. Which lends a bit of weight to the argument that minimum weights aren't really the answer. Being one of the, ahem, fuller figure I appreciate the position of fellows such as Scott Redding, Luca Marini and co who have to starve themselves. I would like it if they got some sort of weight reduction on their bike, rather then putting ballast onto the bike of a lighter rider. As you say, where do you stick all of the ballast to get the Ducati and Bautista package to equal BMW and Redding? Should there be a sliding scale which involves adding small amounts of weight or reducing it, depending on bike and rider combination?

But it's ongoing fiddling, like with the rev limits..... It may well turn out that Toprak and the BMW become the next dominant combination!

[Higgs boson]

slopes said:

Redding weighs 90kg.

I know that this figure is reported in the press, but I can't believe that it's accurate.

He may be tall, but his body fat is likely to be in single figures, and with all the training, nutritionists selecting appropriate foods, the desire to perform at his best, I just can't see it.

Maybe they mean fully kitted out, and I'm being a bit obtuse! (highly possible)

[rodericb]

Higgs boson said:

I know that this figure is reported in the press, but I can't believe that it's accurate.

He may be tall, but his body fat is likely to be in single figures, and with all the training, nutritionists selecting appropriate foods, the desire to perform at his best, I just can't see it.

Maybe they mean fully kitted out, and I'm being a bit obtuse! (highly possible)

When you hear what the bigger guys have to put themselves through you can't help but think their strength is impacted negatively, which then negates part of the advantage of being bigger in that you've got more strength than a smaller fellow like Buatista (or more extremely, Pedrosa). That negative impact might be small, but we're talking tiny differences when the packages are lapping within tenths of a second of each other.

I just had a brainwave - maybe they should do superpole on baggers? Or the manufacturers respective adventure bikes? that'd level it up!

[Zarco]

A minimum weight limit doesn't mean every bike/rider combo has to weigh as much as the heaviest combo. It just means the lightest riders are penalised to some extent.

Bautista won't necessarily be having to match Redding.

[flatlandsman]

They are not really penalised at all. It just levels things up a little

All it means is that the bike and rider combo have to weigh something, instead of at the moment just the bike, so the bike has to hit weight, it might already be heavily ballasted right now to meet that weight, and that ballast can be put where it benefits the bike either centrally or nearer each wheel.

Redding for example has to probably ride a bike with no ballast anywhere which could impact his ability to do things on the bike, might affect front end, or rear grip.

Alvaro can therefore have 20 or 30 KG's scope for ballast placement anywhere, as he will now have to ride the same weight limits as every else. But he can put ballast in places that benefit him. Every rider who is light will be able to make this choice, but now have to hit a combined weight ratio.

At the moment it is obvious that the DUcati has acceleration and top speed gains, not every rider has this, but you do not also know the relative spec of each bike, but at some tracks, notably Aragon the basic bike was clearly a lot faster than every other bike on that day as lots of their riders did well.

Alvaro makes the difference elsewhere, but his advantage is clear and it is not just his ability, this decision was made once the title was sewn up for 23, this is also very obvious, would have been simple to fix this earlier but Dorna want his to win, so hey ho.

[Fundoreen]

Oh well I had my fun but I guess its more complicated than that. I also doubt as posted, that redding is 14st.
I doubt he would have even gotten the grid with any team if it was true.
My favourite series is moto3 and quite often you see a giant scrum of bikes for the whole race.
Tiddlers on tiddlers lol.

[slopes]

Fundoreen said:

Oh well I had my fun but I guess its more complicated than that. I also doubt as posted, that redding is 14st.
I doubt he would have even gotten the grid with any team if it was true.
My favourite series is moto3 and quite often you see a giant scrum of bikes for the whole race.
Tiddlers on tiddlers lol.

Don't forget though that Redding is 6ft so 14 stone isn't outrageous for someone that height. I'm 5'7" and 12 stone plus and at my heaviest i was 13 stone so it's not impossible for him to be 14 stone but i am willing to bet that his advertised weight of 90kg includes his riding kit.

[Tango13]

Zarco said:

A minimum weight limit doesn't mean every bike/rider combo has to weigh as much as the heaviest combo. It just means the lightest riders are penalised to some extent.

Bautista won't necessarily be having to match Redding.

I'd agree with that, no need to bring the weight up to parity as even a small amount of extra weight on the bike will penalise a lighter rider every which way. Hurts the acceleration and braking which has a knock on effect on the tyres and how they last over the race distance.

If Bautista does indeed only weigh 60kg then a 10kg penalty is 1/6th of his body weight and the extra effort involved in throwing a bike 10kg heavier about over a race distance gets old real fast.