World Supersport engines

[Skyedriver]

Watching World Supersport after near on 30 years of MotoGP/2/3 (500/250/125) could someone explain how a Ducati 955 fits into the class when I read:

To be eligible for World Supersport, a motorcycle must have a four stroke engine of between 400 and 600 cc for four cylinder, 500 and 675 cubic centimetres for triples and between 600 and 750 cc for twins and must satisfy the FIM homologation requirements.

Thanks

[dibblecorse]

https://www.roadracingworld.com/news/world-supersp...

[rodericb]

Wow, it's like back to the future - kind of. GSXR750's and Ducati 955's!

[flatlandsman]

If you recall Ducati also did this back in the day with the 748, it did well initially but never dominated as the 916 did in Superbike. You could also argue that the class was failing as it stood and this rule change has revitalised it, in favour, of guess who, the marque that is currently utterly dominating every top class in World bike racing.

I think in AMA they did a similar thing years ago that allowed Harley engines Buells into the class and they started to do very well, not sure now.

But that would be a different story.

[slopes]

It works though, look at BSSP, they have Ducatis and GSXR750's running against Triumph's and 4 cylinder 600's and despite what that might look like, it is now guarantee who is going to win. Okay ben Currie is almost a shoe in for the title on the Ducati but that is because he is consistent and same goes for WSSP, Nicolo Bulega is almost champion because he has finished almost every single race either winning or in second place. But otherwise, the R6 riders can keep up with him as can the MV riders

[graeme4130]

slopes said:

It works though, look at BSSP, they have Ducatis and GSXR750's running against Triumph's and 4 cylinder 600's and despite what that might look like, it is now guarantee who is going to win. Okay ben Currie is almost a shoe in for the title on the Ducati but that is because he is consistent and same goes for WSSP, Nicolo Bulega is almost champion because he has finished almost every single race either winning or in second place. But otherwise, the R6 riders can keep up with him as can the MV riders

You could also argue that Bulega is only having to ride at 98% to win (comfortably) whereas the R6's and MV's are having to ride over 100% to keep up - He is, after all, on a full factory bike with all their effort into him - I understand Aruba owners are very good friends of the Bulega family, so will be pumping some serious ££££'s in
Ultimately, he's a decent rider, but he didn't exactly set the world on fire in Moto2/3
It'll be interesting to see how well he goes on the SBK next year

In terms of the OP question, I can only see the inclusion of other capacities being a good thing for SS600 at BSB and World level though as it's made the championships interesting again

[slopes]

graeme4130 said:

slopes said:

It works though, look at BSSP, they have Ducatis and GSXR750's running against Triumph's and 4 cylinder 600's and despite what that might look like, it is now guarantee who is going to win. Okay ben Currie is almost a shoe in for the title on the Ducati but that is because he is consistent and same goes for WSSP, Nicolo Bulega is almost champion because he has finished almost every single race either winning or in second place. But otherwise, the R6 riders can keep up with him as can the MV riders

You could also argue that Bulega is only having to ride at 98% to win (comfortably) whereas the R6's and MV's are having to ride over 100% to keep up - He is, after all, on a full factory bike with all their effort into him - I understand Aruba owners are very good friends of the Bulega family, so will be pumping some serious ££££'s in
Ultimately, he's a decent rider, but he didn't exactly set the world on fire in Moto2/3
It'll be interesting to see how well he goes on the SBK next year

In terms of the OP question, I can only see the inclusion of other capacities being a good thing for SS600 at BSB and World level though as it's made the championships interesting again

Valid point but last year he was nowhere near as dominant, in fact i don't think he won a single race last year did he?
He's come on massively as a rider this year and he won't win next year as that will still be Bautista, Rea and Razgatlioglou winning between them but i expect he will be at the sharp end and occasional podium finisher

[Chipchap]

WSBK apply a "Balancing factor" between all the eligible bikes. This includes all data such as corner entry and exit speed, acceleration and top speed, bike capacity, bhp and torque and of course bike weight. They then use some complex algorythm or similar to arrive at engine ecu maps to release or restrict bikes.

No doubt they get this wrong but can recalc every 3 rounds I think. So any huge advantage is negated quite quickly.

Up until 2yrs ago it was simply The R6 Cup as nothing else could compete.

Now you can run:

MV F3 800

Ducati V2

Yamaha R6

Kawasaki ZX6 & 636 version

Suzuki GSXR 750 in UK but not sure of WSBK

Triumph 765

Probably more in the wings with KTM and BMW having 900 twins.


The MV's are almost up with the Ducati's but just a tad short. Perhaps for next year the Duke gets strangled a bit and its all a bit closer.

[flatlandsman]

Bulega let's face it is a bit of a strange rider.

Rossi picked him from a very young age and he did not last long there, was next to useless on a Moto2 and now has found a level in SBK.

Maybe he doesn't work hard, maybe he loses concentration, I don't know but the talent Rossi saw is clearly there now.

Maybe the other teams did not get the best out of him, Ducati will always strongly favor and desire a young Italian rider in any of their teams.

[slopes]

Chipchap said:

WSBK apply a "Balancing factor" between all the eligible bikes. This includes all data such as corner entry and exit speed, acceleration and top speed, bike capacity, bhp and torque and of course bike weight. They then use some complex algorythm or similar to arrive at engine ecu maps to release or restrict bikes.

No doubt they get this wrong but can recalc every 3 rounds I think. So any huge advantage is negated quite quickly.

Up until 2yrs ago it was simply The R6 Cup as nothing else could compete.

Now you can run:

MV F3 800

Ducati V2

Yamaha R6

Kawasaki ZX6 & 636 version

Suzuki GSXR 750 in UK but not sure of WSBK

Triumph 765

Probably more in the wings with KTM and BMW having 900 twins.


The MV's are almost up with the Ducati's but just a tad short. Perhaps for next year the Duke gets strangled a bit and its all a bit closer.

Pretty much but then last year was the R6 cup too as they won all bar about 4 races and they were won by MV. Yes the Ducati is dominant this year but it isnt walking away with things due to performance as Manzi has been pushing Bulega all year. For me this year is down to Bulega finally having the consistency to match his pace and we all know that is how you wint championships. Don't have to win every race but you do need to finish on the pdoium every round, look at Rea in 2019.
Bautista was off and away but Rea finished second more or less every race, then when Bautista started making mistakes, Rea was there to capitalise and that is what won him the title that year

[Birky_41]

Chipchap said:

WSBK apply a "Balancing factor" between all the eligible bikes. This includes all data such as corner entry and exit speed, acceleration and top speed, bike capacity, bhp and torque and of course bike weight. They then use some complex algorythm or similar to arrive at engine ecu maps to release or restrict bikes.

No doubt they get this wrong but can recalc every 3 rounds I think. So any huge advantage is negated quite quickly.

Up until 2yrs ago it was simply The R6 Cup as nothing else could compete.

Now you can run:

MV F3 800

Ducati V2

Yamaha R6

Kawasaki ZX6 & 636 version

Suzuki GSXR 750 in UK but not sure of WSBK

Triumph 765

Probably more in the wings with KTM and BMW having 900 twins.


The MV's are almost up with the Ducati's but just a tad short. Perhaps for next year the Duke gets strangled a bit and its all a bit closer.

I've not watched any racing but seeing the GSXR750 being able to compete really surprises me. I would have thought that would have quite a strong advantage over the ZX600/636 and the MV/Triumph which is essentially similar CC but missing a cylinder

Or am I missing something here?

[Normodog]

Birky_41 said:

I've not watched any racing but seeing the GSXR750 being able to compete really surprises me. I would have thought that would have quite a strong advantage over the ZX600/636 and the MV/Triumph which is essentially similar CC but missing a cylinder

Or am I missing something here?

I think the gsxr is pretty much a stock engine vs the r6 being full supersport spec.

I seem to remember Rhys Irwin talking about them being able to run the same engine all year compared to the R6 needing multiple rebuilds.

Something like that anyway.

[airsafari87]

Birky_41 said:

I've not watched any racing but seeing the GSXR750 being able to compete really surprises me. I would have thought that would have quite a strong advantage over the ZX600/636 and the MV/Triumph which is essentially similar CC but missing a cylinder

Or am I missing something here?

I think the revs are quite heavily capped on the GSXR?

I seem to recall Irwin saying that it was a cheaper way for them to run a bike as the engine is understressed and won’t require the same level of rebuilds etc … as a 600 would.

[Zarco]

Normodog said:

Birky_41 said:

I've not watched any racing but seeing the GSXR750 being able to compete really surprises me. I would have thought that would have quite a strong advantage over the ZX600/636 and the MV/Triumph which is essentially similar CC but missing a cylinder

Or am I missing something here?

I think the gsxr is pretty much a stock engine vs the r6 being full supersport spec.

I seem to remember Rhys Irwin talking about them being able to run the same engine all year compared to the R6 needing multiple rebuilds.

Something like that anyway.

That's basically it.

To me it feels like Ben Currie has had a bike advantage in the second half of the season since he found a good setting.

[slopes]

Zarco said:

Normodog said:

Birky_41 said:

I've not watched any racing but seeing the GSXR750 being able to compete really surprises me. I would have thought that would have quite a strong advantage over the ZX600/636 and the MV/Triumph which is essentially similar CC but missing a cylinder

Or am I missing something here?

I think the gsxr is pretty much a stock engine vs the r6 being full supersport spec.

I seem to remember Rhys Irwin talking about them being able to run the same engine all year compared to the R6 needing multiple rebuilds.

Something like that anyway.

That's basically it.

To me it feels like Ben Currie has had a bike advantage in the second half of the season since he found a good setting.

That's a fair assesment of Currie's season but again, he's had to actually finish the races and that is something Booth Amos and Irwin haven't always done and when Currie hasn't won, he has nearly always been on the podium.

[Zarco]

slopes said:

Zarco said:

Normodog said:

Birky_41 said:

I've not watched any racing but seeing the GSXR750 being able to compete really surprises me. I would have thought that would have quite a strong advantage over the ZX600/636 and the MV/Triumph which is essentially similar CC but missing a cylinder

Or am I missing something here?

I think the gsxr is pretty much a stock engine vs the r6 being full supersport spec.

I seem to remember Rhys Irwin talking about them being able to run the same engine all year compared to the R6 needing multiple rebuilds.

Something like that anyway.

That's basically it.

To me it feels like Ben Currie has had a bike advantage in the second half of the season since he found a good setting.

That's a fair assesment of Currie's season but again, he's had to actually finish the races and that is something Booth Amos and Irwin haven't always done and when Currie hasn't won, he has nearly always been on the podium.

Yes I agree. Wasn't commenting on who deserves to win the championship or whatever. The Ducati seems to have a smaller setup 'window' too, so kudos to the team for finding the performance.

Looking at BSS and WSS the Ducati does seem to be the best package if you can find the sweet spot.

[slopes]

Zarco said:

slopes said:

Zarco said:

Normodog said:

Birky_41 said:

I've not watched any racing but seeing the GSXR750 being able to compete really surprises me. I would have thought that would have quite a strong advantage over the ZX600/636 and the MV/Triumph which is essentially similar CC but missing a cylinder

Or am I missing something here?

I think the gsxr is pretty much a stock engine vs the r6 being full supersport spec.

I seem to remember Rhys Irwin talking about them being able to run the same engine all year compared to the R6 needing multiple rebuilds.

Something like that anyway.

That's basically it.

To me it feels like Ben Currie has had a bike advantage in the second half of the season since he found a good setting.

That's a fair assesment of Currie's season but again, he's had to actually finish the races and that is something Booth Amos and Irwin haven't always done and when Currie hasn't won, he has nearly always been on the podium.

Yes I agree. Wasn't commenting on who deserves to win the championship or whatever. The Ducati seems to have a smaller setup 'window' too, so kudos to the team for finding the performance.

Looking at BSS and WSS the Ducati does seem to be the best package if you can find the sweet spot.

Fair point, look at Bulega last year which was the first year of racing the Panigale V2, granted he finished 4th overall but the R6 dominated last year in WSSP. With a years worth of data, look at the results...
Moto Rapido have done a cracking job this year with getting their bike set up and all credit to Currie for using it to his advantage but it's funny how in BSSP, the bikes are all fairly close, last time out the Kawasaski was the bike.But in WSSP, if you aren't on a Ducati or are Manzi, you are almost stuffed for the year.