Excess / long front brake level travel - Vincenzo method

[Momentofmadness]

Hi BB,

I have had a eureka moment... I had excess lever travel and my GSXR600, I rebuilt the master cylinder, new seals, replaced the bleed nipples (all genuine Suzuki parts £££) and used about a gallon of brake fluid but could not get rid of the excess travel.

Google suggests the "Vincenzo method" - basically take the calipers off and pump the brake a little bit then put the caliper back on.... it worked a treat after over 12 months of head scratching.

Cool story bro but I can't believe it's sorted at long last and I am posting this to save some other poor soul from suffering too!

As you were

Edited by Momentofmadness on Sunday 25th June 16:46

[Rubin215]

This allows the pistons to push out a little bit from the seals then, when you shimmy the calipers back on, the stiction of the pistons to the seals flexes the seal back slightly rather than the piston moving back in properly.
Effectively you are 'preloading' the piston slightly so any lever pressure is transmitted directly.

When you start with the pistons back in the caliper, the seals flex out the way slightly every time you pump the lever and then pull the piston back slightly when the pressure is released, hence the sponginess.


I thought everyone knew this but I didn't know it had a specific name...

[Marquezs Stabilisers]

Very timely. Having ridden in the awful weather in the West of Scotland this afternoon the lever travel on my FireBlade is getting too long so will be doing some bleeding later

[Zarco]

I like the cable tie over night method.

[Momentofmadness]

Thanks chaps!

I have rebuilt calipers before but never had this issue.

Zarco said:

I like the cable tie over night method.

Ahhhh but this is if there is air in the system; there was none in mine and the excess lever travel was driving me mad - this resetting of the pistons that were stuck on the seals had taken all of the excess travel away

Edited by Momentofmadness on Sunday 25th June 16:46

[Steve Bass]

Excellent ‘Top Tip’ Sir!!!

Cheers

[ThreadKiller]

Would it be simpler / easier to take the pads out and pump slightly?

[Momentofmadness]

Steve Bass said:

Excellent ‘Top Tip’ Sir!!!

Cheers

I can't take credit but I am very thankful to whoever Vincenzo is!

ThreadKiller said:

Would it be simpler / easier to take the pads out and pump slightly?

Maybe depends on the bike, but for me, no I just undid the caliper, left the pads in a pumped the brake lever - then slid the caliper back on - it took about 5 mins all in and has transformed this problem that I have had for the last 12 months... incredible!

[Mike 820]

Momentofmadness said:

Hi BB,
Google suggests the "Vincenzo method" - basically take the calipers off and pump the brake a little bit then put the caliper back on.... it worked a treat after over 12 months of head scratching.

Edited by Momentofmadness on Sunday 25th June 16:46

I've been having a lot of trouble with my brakes lately and like you had tried everything. I hadnt heard of this method. I will give it a go.
But could you clarify the method.

I assume removing the callipers and then pressing the brakes means you press the brake lever a little but not enough to close the pads up so they dont fit over the disk any more.?

[Biker9090]

I had this issue on my VFR recently. Pistons were sticking in the seals (both were brand new). Seals were either still stiff or not enough lube

[Momentofmadness]

Mike 820 said:

I assume removing the callipers and then pressing the brakes means you press the brake lever a little but not enough to close the pads up so they dont fit over the disk any more.?

Exactly that

Please let us know how you get on?

Biker9090 said:

I had this issue on my VFR recently. Pistons were sticking in the seals (both were brand new). Seals were either still stiff or not enough lube

It was a new concept to me and I had never experienced this problem before... I have been stressing myself over the last 12 months - hopefully this thread will save someone some heartache

[OutInTheShed]

It depends on what is causing the excess lever travel.

Can be several things:
Air in system
Lost motion before the lever start moving the MC piston
Not having goodridge hoses
Seals pulling the calipers back too much
Run out in the disc knocking the pads and caliper pistons back
Any other offers?


Find the cause to fix the effect.

[A993LAD]

Momentofmadness said:

Mike 820 said:

I assume removing the callipers and then pressing the brakes means you press the brake lever a little but not enough to close the pads up so they dont fit over the disk any more.?

Exactly that

Please let us know how you get on?

I might try this too. The brakes on my wife's nearly new gsxs1000gt have way too much lever travel for my liking. I've already tried cleaning the pistons/calipers, changing the pads and bleeding the lines. Front brake lever still feels spongy and has to much travel. Wanted to get the dealer to check it but they have a 6-8 week delay for service dept bookings ffs!

[trickywoo]

A993LAD said:

I might try this too. The brakes on my wife's nearly new gsxs1000gt have way too much lever travel for my liking. I've already tried cleaning the pistons/calipers, changing the pads and bleeding the lines. Front brake lever still feels spongy and has to much travel. Wanted to get the dealer to check it but they have a 6-8 week delay for service dept bookings ffs!

Front brakes seem to be a consistent issue on Suzuki bikes but the reviews I’ve seen on the GT say they are better than most.

That being said if you are used to top level ‘European’ brakes anything Japanese will feel broken.

[Momentofmadness]

A993LAD said:

I might try this too. The brakes on my wife's nearly new gsxs1000gt have way too much lever travel for my liking. I've already tried cleaning the pistons/calipers, changing the pads and bleeding the lines. Front brake lever still feels spongy and has to much travel. Wanted to get the dealer to check it but they have a 6-8 week delay for service dept bookings ffs!

Everything should be in good order so it's definitely worth a try if the lever has too much travel.

Just take the caliper off, pump the lever to get the pistons out slightly more than they were and slide it back on.

Good luck buddy and let us know how you get on.

[A993LAD]

A quick update on this to say that I have now implemented the vincenzo method and it has greatly improved the brakes on my wife's gsxs 1000 GT.

I first measured the thickness of the disc and it came in it just over 6mm. So I removed each caliper and placed a piece of 5 mm plywood between the pads pumped the brake lever a couple of times and then pushed the caliper back onto the disc and bolted it up.

It has greatly reduced the lever travel and the brakes are biting much quicker.

So thanks for the tip I'll remember this in future.

[mikey_b]

Momentofmadness said:

Thanks chaps!

I have rebuilt calipers before but never had this issue.

Zarco said:

I like the cable tie over night method.

Ahhhh but this is if there is air in the system; there was none in mine and the excess lever travel was driving me mad - this resetting of the pistons that were stuck on the seals had taken all of the excess travel away

Edited by Momentofmadness on Sunday 25th June 16:46

I don't follow the logic of the 'cable tie overnight' system removing air. I accept that it works to firm up the lever (have done it a few times myself) but the only time air can leave the system is if the air bubble trapped in the pipework can pass all the way up the hoses, through the master cylinder, and into the reservoir - which, if the brakes are held on, it can't do because the master cylinder isn't open. And why would pressurising the system make the air bubble more likely to move upwards through the pipework, anyway?

Suspect that cabling tieing the brakes on hard for hours at a time simply allows the seals to very slowly adjust their position on the piston so they don't retract quite so far afterwards - basically the same as this other method.

[Condi]

For what it costs to get them refurbished then why wouldn't you do it properly.

[A993LAD]

Condi said:

For what it costs to get them refurbished then why wouldn't you do it properly.

Hmm?

Wonder if you have missed the key points here or perhaps not read the thread?

[OutInTheShed]

mikey_b said:

I don't follow the logic of the 'cable tie overnight' system removing air. I accept that it works to firm up the lever (have done it a few times myself) but the only time air can leave the system is if the air bubble trapped in the pipework can pass all the way up the hoses, through the master cylinder, and into the reservoir - which, if the brakes are held on, it can't do because the master cylinder isn't open. And why would pressurising the system make the air bubble more likely to move upwards through the pipework, anyway?

Suspect that cabling tieing the brakes on hard for hours at a time simply allows the seals to very slowly adjust their position on the piston so they don't retract quite so far afterwards - basically the same as this other method.

Possibly it lets air out of the part of the master cylinder outside the pressure seal?
Possibly it makes the bubbles smaller due to the pressure, so they rise up the hose rather than jamming?

It does work, sometimes, I guess it depends what the exact problem is.
I tend to bleed my brakes with a syringe to push clean fluid up the system.
Another thing that can work is suction, to make any air bubbles bigger, but this can draw in air atound the threads of the bleed screw.