Corners better... improving cornering skills
Discussion
OK I've only been riding for five months and even though I've got probably 5,000+ miles across four countries under my belt I know I can still learn and want to still learn.
One of the areas that I want to learn more is cornering/bends..
I've found this vid as a start
https://youtu.be/KjLVwTGt2Ds
Do you have any tips?
One of the areas that I want to learn more is cornering/bends..
I've found this vid as a start
https://youtu.be/KjLVwTGt2Ds
Do you have any tips?
I haven’t watched the whole video but their first point nails it: looking further ahead. If you’re not looking far enough ahead then by the time your brain has processed what it saw the bike has passed that point. You go where you’re looking so look where you want to go. Realising this brought about a step-change in my riding ability in corners. Like you, I am a recently qualified rider, passing my test in September 2021 and getting a F1RST with the IAM in October 2022.
https://i2imca.com/ do a range of bike handling courses that are great VFM and will help you get to the next level and brake/steer more confidently
For more road biased training then IAM or RoSPA are both great ( individual preference is usually dependent on who you get as your local instructor) both can be very cost effective ways to get road experience. Check out your local group and go along for an assessment ride, see if you like it.
There are track based training schools like https://britishsuperbikeschool.com/ really good way to experience track riding in an organised way (versus a public trackday) with an instructor in small groups interspersed with classroom theory.
For more road biased training then IAM or RoSPA are both great ( individual preference is usually dependent on who you get as your local instructor) both can be very cost effective ways to get road experience. Check out your local group and go along for an assessment ride, see if you like it.
There are track based training schools like https://britishsuperbikeschool.com/ really good way to experience track riding in an organised way (versus a public trackday) with an instructor in small groups interspersed with classroom theory.
One thing that really helped me on my cornering was actually learning "look where you want to go". I thought it was with the eyes, it's not. Point with your nose.
As with driving a car, most of the results of a corner are in the build-up and not with the corner itself. Observations and planning ahead will get you way, way further than quick reactions. Looking round the bend, checking for hazards on the bend (mud, horse turds, metal covers etc), position and planning your route through a corner is the most beneficial thing I found. I'm not a particularly amazing rider but I'm safe enough.
As with driving a car, most of the results of a corner are in the build-up and not with the corner itself. Observations and planning ahead will get you way, way further than quick reactions. Looking round the bend, checking for hazards on the bend (mud, horse turds, metal covers etc), position and planning your route through a corner is the most beneficial thing I found. I'm not a particularly amazing rider but I'm safe enough.
Some thoughts from the video.
1. You can cross the centre line IF you can see that it is safe to do so and it's not a solid line. All the advantages from a wide approach can be made even better if that wide approach can be even wider by using the off side of the road. But, do not compromise safety for position.
2. Stay wide in the corner until you can see the kerb/bank beyond the corner exit on the same side of the road as the corner. If it's a left hander you need to be able to see the kerb/bank on the left side beyond the corner. If it's a right hander, you need to be able to see the kerb/bank on the right side. Only then should you start the acceleration out of the corner.
3. Getting into a low gear on approach allows much more speed control from the throttle without the need for brakes. Although most bikes, and the bigger the engine, the more this is true, have the torque to pull the lower third of the usable rev range in most cornering situations, cornering is safer, easier and smoother if you enter the corner in the middle third of the rev range. As an example, if the bike red lines at 12,000 rpm then the lower third is 3,000 - 6,000 rpm. The middle third is 6,000 - 9,000 rpm.
4. The BMWs I've had with "funny front ends" have always reacted better to counter steering input that is pulling the opposite bar rather than pushing the "same side" bar. Try it on your bike and see if it's better.
The final, and most important, thing I'd add is to look, AND KEEP LOOKING where you want to go. As demonstrated beautifully by James here on Stelvio last year.
1. You can cross the centre line IF you can see that it is safe to do so and it's not a solid line. All the advantages from a wide approach can be made even better if that wide approach can be even wider by using the off side of the road. But, do not compromise safety for position.
2. Stay wide in the corner until you can see the kerb/bank beyond the corner exit on the same side of the road as the corner. If it's a left hander you need to be able to see the kerb/bank on the left side beyond the corner. If it's a right hander, you need to be able to see the kerb/bank on the right side. Only then should you start the acceleration out of the corner.
3. Getting into a low gear on approach allows much more speed control from the throttle without the need for brakes. Although most bikes, and the bigger the engine, the more this is true, have the torque to pull the lower third of the usable rev range in most cornering situations, cornering is safer, easier and smoother if you enter the corner in the middle third of the rev range. As an example, if the bike red lines at 12,000 rpm then the lower third is 3,000 - 6,000 rpm. The middle third is 6,000 - 9,000 rpm.
4. The BMWs I've had with "funny front ends" have always reacted better to counter steering input that is pulling the opposite bar rather than pushing the "same side" bar. Try it on your bike and see if it's better.
The final, and most important, thing I'd add is to look, AND KEEP LOOKING where you want to go. As demonstrated beautifully by James here on Stelvio last year.
Black-k1 has some great advice there.
Coaching IAM associates, a very common issue I find is not using gears properly. On an RT on a typical British windy B road, you’d probably want 3rd at most for corners and 2nd if it gets tight. Too high a gear and you’ll have a tendency to run wide, and not feel in control of the bike.
outnumbered said:
Coaching IAM associates, a very common issue I find is not using gears properly. On an RT on a typical British windy B road, you’d probably want 3rd at most for corners and 2nd if it gets tight. Too high a gear and you’ll have a tendency to run wide, and not feel in control of the bike.
Only done car IAM and RoSPA, passed RoSPA at Gold once but one of the things from my first IAM lessons was to be in a lower gear in narrow, country lanes and control speed with the throttle even if it felt like it was raking it. Once I got to the bends I could ease off the throttle rather than arrive at the bend and trying to brake, slow and change gear all at the same time.Hugo Stiglitz said:
OK I've only been riding for five months and even though I've got probably 5,000+ miles across four countries under my belt I know I can still learn and want to still learn.
One of the areas that I want to learn more is cornering/bends..
I've found this vid as a start
https://youtu.be/KjLVwTGt2Ds
Do you have any tips?
Good video. I actually watched this a few months ago during my DAS training, I thought I'd absorbed it fully but have to admit I'm not applying all of what's said. One of the areas that I want to learn more is cornering/bends..
I've found this vid as a start
https://youtu.be/KjLVwTGt2Ds
Do you have any tips?
And thinking back on my riding, in faster turns I'm not doing what Razer and others say i.e. leading with my head, but instead my eyes shiftily and desperately focused on the exit, gritted teeth more than half the time
Revisiting this stuff is invaluable.
I'm not in a position to offer much in terms of tips. But reading 'twist of the wrist 2' (and watching the film, link below) gave me confidence in cracking open and rolling on the throttle, which does make a big difference in how the bike feels in corners. MotoJitsu and Reg Local (latter being a member of this forum) are a good resource on YouTube. And 'Proficient Motorcycling' is a really good book, bit ponderous in places but lots of valuable info and rationale to back it up. I'm starting IAM RoadSmart in the new year, and plan to do a James Whitham trackday at Cadwell in April. Hopefully I'll be a better rider soon. Just trying to get as much seat time as I can, while focusing on relaxing as much as I can.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK9AoAAy7uM&ab...
bogie said:
https://i2imca.com/ do a range of bike handling courses that are great VFM and will help you get to the next level and brake/steer more confidently
Second this, Tom's courses are mega.Kawasicki said:
ThreadKiller said:
And if it goes a bit wrong….
Still look where you want to go!
Don’t target fixate on hazards… or you will hit them.
It’s bloody hard to do sometimes though…Still look where you want to go!
Don’t target fixate on hazards… or you will hit them.
If it was easy it would be boring!
t" moment 
, overridden instinct and forced a re-focus onto where you want to go, as suddenly, it all becomes easy to handle. 
Another good source of info for the road rider, focused on motorcycle handling theory with some useful drills to practice is the Lee Parks book "total control"
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Total-Control-Performance...
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Total-Control-Performance...
ThreadKiller said:
And if it goes a bit wrong….
Still look where you want to go!
Don’t target fixate on hazards… or you will hit them.
The one thing I learned from my first crash, was, trust your tyres. They have way more grip than you think.Still look where you want to go!
Don’t target fixate on hazards… or you will hit them.
Looking where you want to go is step 1. But learning to trust your tyres I think is step 2. A lot of people target fixate at the same time they are grabbing a handful of front brake and straightening up, which leads to the (often seen on youtube) 'riding straight off the road' crash. Which is what my first one was. The reason for going off like this is that you've prejudged the corner, i.e., you've already made your mind up that you're not going to get around it at the speed you're going. You're probably wrong.
Ever since then, every time I think I've gone into a corner a bit to hot I just think, look, push (countersteer) and lean, look, push and lean. And it's worked every time. Because I'm nowhere near the limit of the bike or the tyres, no matter how I think I'm cornering. In fact I'm probably only leant over at 30 degrees.
So as long as you don't hit gravel or something else, just looking and leaning more with get you around a corner, trust your tyres to grip, and they probably will.
One of the best bits of advice I was given about cornering was to use the vanishing point.
I'm sure this has saved my sorry ass a few times on roads that I don't know when I have been riding in a spirited way.
When you are approaching a corner the vanishing point is the spot where the the road furniture on either side of the road meets. This is usually hedgerows walls or trees. It is very clear when you start looking for it it and becomes difficult to miss once you get used to using it. After a while you can identify it in your peripheral vision rather than focus on it specifically.
The way it works is that if the vanishing point is coming towards you, then you definitely need to be off the throttle and possibly on the brakes depending on the speed at which it is approaching you.
You don't start using the throttle to accelerate until the vanishing Point starts to move away from you and you can Accelerate more and chase the vanishing point as you gain experience and confidence.
It is a fantastic technique for instantly realising when the radius of a corner unexpectedly tightens up because you can have a vanishing point that starts to move away and you start accelerating out of the corner and suddenly the vanishing Point stops and starts coming back towards you at which point you should instantly be back off the throttle because the radius is going to tighten up.
I was taught how to use this on a high speed road driving course and it has always worked well for me so give it a try if you are not using it already.
Apologies if this is already covered above
I'm sure this has saved my sorry ass a few times on roads that I don't know when I have been riding in a spirited way.
When you are approaching a corner the vanishing point is the spot where the the road furniture on either side of the road meets. This is usually hedgerows walls or trees. It is very clear when you start looking for it it and becomes difficult to miss once you get used to using it. After a while you can identify it in your peripheral vision rather than focus on it specifically.
The way it works is that if the vanishing point is coming towards you, then you definitely need to be off the throttle and possibly on the brakes depending on the speed at which it is approaching you.
You don't start using the throttle to accelerate until the vanishing Point starts to move away from you and you can Accelerate more and chase the vanishing point as you gain experience and confidence.
It is a fantastic technique for instantly realising when the radius of a corner unexpectedly tightens up because you can have a vanishing point that starts to move away and you start accelerating out of the corner and suddenly the vanishing Point stops and starts coming back towards you at which point you should instantly be back off the throttle because the radius is going to tighten up.
I was taught how to use this on a high speed road driving course and it has always worked well for me so give it a try if you are not using it already.
Apologies if this is already covered above
Edited by A993LAD on Sunday 11th December 11:40
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