Novice to Fast lap times

[Wheelie no can do]

So I've seen various threads on here regarding lap times at various UK tracks. Completely understand that officially it isn't about timing and it'a all about fun but I've not met many track dayers that don't record lap times or go home & check video footage to see what sort of lap times they are running.

I got into a interesting conversation with a friend who was suggesting that lap times are a lot faster than what I believe them to be. So for example, I suggested at Donington anything 1.50 or below would be fast group pace & anything over 2.00 would be novice, he's suggesting low 1.40s for fast group. I appreciate you are going to get a wide range in all groups but I'm just interested as to what the general consensus is as to what times each group will run.

So the question is as a rough guide (exc racers) what average lap times dictate novice, inters, advanced groups for the various UK circuits?

[Abdul Abulbul Amir]

Good thread.

Would be good to know people's thoughts on Brands Indy, mine are

Fast <55 secs
Inters 56-65 secs
Novice >66 secs

[dibblecorse]

Metzeler Newcomer 1000 & Ducati Coventry JHP Challenge qualifying from from Donny 2 weeks ago, all of these rider would be in the fast group at a trackday, you are hugely underestimating the gap between fast / inters / novice, there can be a 45-60 second spread if not more from the quickest in fast and the slowest innovice. This was run on the GP circuit.

I've been lapped in a 15 minute session by someone like Bob Collins !!!

This group would be closest in experience to regular trackdayers as its the primary home of all the newcomers.

thttps://www.tsl-timing.com/file/?f=NOLIMITS/2022/...

Also not all trackdays are equal, its very dependent on who turns up, you get slow days and fast days ...

[Wheelie no can do]

Dibblecorse - I agree with your points but I was trying to keep racers out of it, from what I see on TDA Bob Collins is an extremely fast/capable rider/racer.

If I was sticking with my example of say Donington, I'd expect racers to be around 1.30-1.40 dependent on bike/class/capability. So then a fast group of trackdayers would be around 1.40-1.50, inters 1.51-2 and novice 2+.

Again, I agree with you that it's dependent on day and that 10 sec isn't anywhere near enough to cover the group but part of that is people in the wrong group. I've seen people running nearly 2 mins running around in fast group at donington which when you see the closing speed into corners is crazy.

[Rob_F]

I did Donnington twice last year and improved from a mid/late 1.50 to a 1.50 flat on a ZX6R. I went from being middle or maybe slightly slower than middle in the Inters group to towards one of the quicker riders over those two days which correlates with your estimate.

Interesting to see the race times posted!

[dibblecorse]

Wheelie no can do said:

Dibblecorse - I agree with your points but I was trying to keep racers out of it, from what I see on TDA Bob Collins is an extremely fast/capable rider/racer.

If I was sticking with my example of say Donington, I'd expect racers to be around 1.30-1.40 dependent on bike/class/capability. So then a fast group of trackdayers would be around 1.40-1.50, inters 1.51-2 and novice 2+.

Again, I agree with you that it's dependent on day and that 10 sec isn't anywhere near enough to cover the group but part of that is people in the wrong group. I've seen people running nearly 2 mins running around in fast group at donington which when you see the closing speed into corners is crazy.

Those newcomer 1000 riders are your fast group, they are not even the faster end of the fast group. Plenty of non racing trsckdayers capable of times better than those but in the same window.

[Birky_41]

Wheelie no can do said:

Dibblecorse - I agree with your points but I was trying to keep racers out of it, from what I see on TDA Bob Collins is an extremely fast/capable rider/racer.

If I was sticking with my example of say Donington, I'd expect racers to be around 1.30-1.40 dependent on bike/class/capability. So then a fast group of trackdayers would be around 1.40-1.50, inters 1.51-2 and novice 2+.

Again, I agree with you that it's dependent on day and that 10 sec isn't anywhere near enough to cover the group but part of that is people in the wrong group. I've seen people running nearly 2 mins running around in fast group at donington which when you see the closing speed into corners is crazy.

I rode with Bob last year first time at brands GP. Fluffed it end of first lap but truth be told he was quicker than me video here
https://youtu.be/6OqWDZp7bAo

Doni I do 1.39s on my stock GSXR 1000 with slicks. I can do 1.40-1.41s on my Tuono road bike running slicks but everything decks out. I'm not a road racer I just do a bit of track days for fun but I do have racing experience off road

I think everyone has their own perception of what's quick and what should be a Racer, fast pace, Inters etc but would say your numbers are pretty good as a ball park

[Birky_41]

Abdul Abulbul Amir said:

Good thread.

Would be good to know people's thoughts on Brands Indy, mine are

Fast <55 secs
Inters 56-65 secs
Novice >66 secs

Hmm I guess depends on the bike, engine size etc. 55 seconds on a 1000 is pretty easy. Doing that on a middleweight naked road bike in a road setup on sports touring tyres is a bit more challenging

[Abdul Abulbul Amir]

Birky_41 said:

Abdul Abulbul Amir said:

Good thread.

Would be good to know people's thoughts on Brands Indy, mine are

Fast <55 secs
Inters 56-65 secs
Novice >66 secs

Hmm I guess depends on the bike, engine size etc. 55 seconds on a 1000 is pretty easy. Doing that on a middleweight naked road bike in a road setup on sports touring tyres is a bit more challenging

Well, I'm still miles away.

I guess the times I put were what I thought you'd have to achieve without being in the wrong group.

[GYTRDave]

I can offer my experience, going from trackdays and fast group to racing in Rookie 1000s and powerbikes.

With trackdays is all dependant on who shows up, but i've guessed as best as i can from my own experiences.

All my best times from racing, best results I've had this year is a handful of 4ths and 5th. Times via I2M Data.

Donington Park GP (Fast group normally between 1:40-1:50)

My best 1:37

Donington National

My best 1:13

Brands GP (fast group normally between 1:38 - 1:55)

My best 1:36

Brands Indy (Fast group normally between 49 - 1:00)

My best 48

Snetterton 300 (Fast group normally between 1:57 - 2:15)

My best 1:56

Pembrey (fast group normally between 1:03 - 1:10)

My best 1:01

Fast group lap times are only an average, of course if there's racers out then it's different.

a quick lesson i learnt on my first race weekend was being in fast group means absolutely F%£" all when it comes to racing.

[Birky_41]

GYTRDave said:

I can offer my experience, going from trackdays and fast group to racing in Rookie 1000s and powerbikes.

With trackdays is all dependant on who shows up, but i've guessed as best as i can from my own experiences.

All my best times from racing, best results I've had this year is a handful of 4ths and 5th. Times via I2M Data.

Donington Park GP (Fast group normally between 1:40-1:50)

My best 1:37

Donington National

My best 1:13

Brands GP (fast group normally between 1:38 - 1:55)

My best 1:36

Brands Indy (Fast group normally between 49 - 1:00)

My best 48

Snetterton 300 (Fast group normally between 1:57 - 2:15)

My best 1:56

Pembrey (fast group normally between 1:03 - 1:10)

My best 1:01

Fast group lap times are only an average, of course if there's racers out then it's different.

a quick lesson i learnt on my first race weekend was being in fast group means absolutely F%£" all when it comes to racing.

Cant get more accurate than that! Spot on and puts me in what I class as top end of fast group

I do Doni in 1.39s
Brands Indy in 49s
Snett in 1.59s

I class myself as fast group. I think anyone wanting a gauge of times just read this post from GYTRDave

[christhreadgill]

Just going to through my 2 pence in here. I've done a lot of trackdays, and a lot of racing as well. Below are my PBs around some circuits, can't remember exact conditions at the time they were set, but gives a good idea of "race" times.

2016 MV Agusta F3 675 - BSB "Superstock" spec bike. These were all from BSB Superstock 600 classes, and I'm not even going to claim to be one of the faster lads. A top-20 finish was a good day for me!

Donington GP - 1:39.4
Brands Indy - 50.3
Brands GP - 1:35.9
Oulton Park (Full) - 1:45.4
Thruxton - 1.23.3
Cadwell Park - 1.36.9
Silverstone GP - 2.18.2

Way back in 2009, I was also able to get an Aprilia RS125 around Brands Indy in 58s. Always been quite proud of that lap, and it stuck me on the Superteens podium against some of my now-extremely fast mates of the time such as Tarran Mackenzie, Tom Ward, and the dearly missed Chrissy Rouse.

As an anecdotal note on how much faster racing can be than "just trackdays", I give the below comparison between BSB Stock600 racers, and "club level" racers, who I would say are all Fast Group TD level.

Silverstone International - No Limits Racing Cup 600 - 1:18.5 (wet) on the above mentioned MV. Started back of the grid, P30 or so (club rules for BSB riders), and finished in P7 after 8 laps (11 minutes). It was won by some lad called "Matt Truelove" doing 1:18.6 laps, and P3 was another lad called "Davy Todd" doing 1:17.8 laps. Both exceptionally fast riders, and "household names" if you watch BSB these days. The three of us the only ones doing a sub 1:20 lap, all 3 on "superstock" bikes in an "open" category class. The guys at the back doing 1:23-1:25 laps.

And to give an idea on how much track conditions can play a big part, on the same day, the "Novice 600" class had a dry race and fastest times were in the 1:14s, slowest being 1:28s.


TL;DR - I personally think it is hard to group people by times on a trackday, unless it's one of those events where your first session is timed, and then people are grouped based on their times set.

[Mortgage_tom]

I asked a similar question a while back but about Anglesey.

Was something like.

Novice - 1.55+
Inters - 1.45 to 1.55
Fast - under 1.45

Think lap record pace is around 1.30



Mallory under a minute fast group?

Edited by Mortgage_tom on Thursday 20th October 14:33

[GYTRDave]

Birky_41 said:

Cant get more accurate than that! Spot on and puts me in what I class as top end of fast group

I do Doni in 1.39s
Brands Indy in 49s
Snett in 1.59s

I class myself as fast group. I think anyone wanting a gauge of times just read this post from GYTRDave

Cheers bud, you'd do well racing, I remember reading I think you did a bit before?
Come do few rounds with Bemsee next year!

[Zarco]

Do you think if the fast group had a race they'd go faster?

[Steve Bass]

Zarco said:

Do you think if the fast group had a race they'd go faster?

Not necessarily. Some people are fast on their own but lack the 'killer' instinct to execute overtakes when they might be more polite on a TD....

Good friend of mine is mooi fast on his own but when he races, he's significantly slower because he's more circumspect passing people ..... keeps waiting for the ideal opportunity rather than getting in and making it happen....

[Abdul Abulbul Amir]

Zarco said:

Do you think if the fast group had a race they'd go faster?

We aren't racing?

[GYTRDave]

I generally think that most fast group riders will go faster in a race, it just happens, but the issues come with overtaking, there's plenty of fast guys that just lack the ruthlessness to do it, and you have to be ruthless you really do ime.

[Birky_41]

GYTRDave said:

Cheers bud, you'd do well racing, I remember reading I think you did a bit before?
Come do few rounds with Bemsee next year!

Just waiting for my broken leg to fix and think I will. Got my ACU just need to add tarmac to it and do the 1 day thing

Problem I have is even at my age my old pushes the Mx a lot but think I need to hang the boots and go tarmac now do my 40s racing that

[christhreadgill]

Zarco said:

Do you think if the fast group had a race they'd go faster?

Yes. Even if you lack that "instinct" for overtaken, getting tucked in behind someone who is 1-2s a lap quicker, will drag you along to faster times, more consistently. Once you've followed someone for a couple of laps at a faster pace, it's much easier to then repeat that by yourself.

Doesn't really work on a TD, as your rhythm of following could be disrupted by an overtaker or an overtakee.