I really need help with my riding
Discussion
This is a strange one and I really don’t know what to do.
I wrote a post a couple of weeks ago to say that after 12 years of riding I have suddenly started having problems turning right from stationary. Am absolutely fine once moving and fully confident at speed, cornering, and even turning right when moving. It’s only from stationary.
I got lots of good tips from my post and have been trying to implement them. I went to an empty carpark to practice and that went well.
Last weekend I went out for a ride and at the end found another carpark for some practice. At the first attempt I stalled while moving off, and the bike went down. This has unsurprisingly hit my confidence even more.
I know it’s all in my head but I can’t shake it off and it’s getting worse. Been out today and although I’m absolutely fine once I’m moving, turning right from stationary is a nightmare. And during the whole ride it’s worrying me - when will I have to turn right at a junction, how tight will it be, etc.
This will sound over-dramatic but at the moment I feel like it’s the end of my riding. I certainly don’t want to go out on the bike again. I don’t ride in the winter anyway so I have 6 months to decide what to do. It just seems so strange.
Some ideas I had:
- Get some professional training (if anything exists for something like this).
- Change my bike for something smaller & easier to manoeuvre, and build up my confidence from scratch.
My bike is too tall for me and I think that’s a contributing factor (although I’ve had it two years). I thought I would get used to the height with time, but it doesn’t seem to be happening. And being a sportsbike there’s very little steering movement for setting off. So i’m sure swapping to a midweight naked would be much easier. But that seems like a drastic solution to a problem which only started a few weeks ago. Is there another way?
Not sure what I’m expecting from this post but am feeling really down and desperate for a solution.
I wrote a post a couple of weeks ago to say that after 12 years of riding I have suddenly started having problems turning right from stationary. Am absolutely fine once moving and fully confident at speed, cornering, and even turning right when moving. It’s only from stationary.
I got lots of good tips from my post and have been trying to implement them. I went to an empty carpark to practice and that went well.
Last weekend I went out for a ride and at the end found another carpark for some practice. At the first attempt I stalled while moving off, and the bike went down. This has unsurprisingly hit my confidence even more.
I know it’s all in my head but I can’t shake it off and it’s getting worse. Been out today and although I’m absolutely fine once I’m moving, turning right from stationary is a nightmare. And during the whole ride it’s worrying me - when will I have to turn right at a junction, how tight will it be, etc.
This will sound over-dramatic but at the moment I feel like it’s the end of my riding. I certainly don’t want to go out on the bike again. I don’t ride in the winter anyway so I have 6 months to decide what to do. It just seems so strange.
Some ideas I had:
- Get some professional training (if anything exists for something like this).
- Change my bike for something smaller & easier to manoeuvre, and build up my confidence from scratch.
My bike is too tall for me and I think that’s a contributing factor (although I’ve had it two years). I thought I would get used to the height with time, but it doesn’t seem to be happening. And being a sportsbike there’s very little steering movement for setting off. So i’m sure swapping to a midweight naked would be much easier. But that seems like a drastic solution to a problem which only started a few weeks ago. Is there another way?
Not sure what I’m expecting from this post but am feeling really down and desperate for a solution.
Professional training, videos, better fitting bike might all help, but as you say, it's likely just a confidence thing.
What's helped me with such maneuvers when I was new/returning to riding?
- grip tank with knees
- relax arms/shoulders
- gentle pressure on rear brake
- slip the clutch lots
- plenty of throttle
- look exactly where you want to go only
You can gain finesse in this over time, just trust yourself (you can do it), and trust the bike.
What's helped me with such maneuvers when I was new/returning to riding?
- grip tank with knees
- relax arms/shoulders
- gentle pressure on rear brake
- slip the clutch lots
- plenty of throttle
- look exactly where you want to go only
You can gain finesse in this over time, just trust yourself (you can do it), and trust the bike.
Sorry to hear that, I remember your previous post on the subject and was hoping the car park practice would do the trick. I haven't got any specific suggestions but I would have thought the answer would have to be training. I don't know who from - IAM, Rospa, Rapid Training all seem to be more focused on road riding at higher speeds - but there must be people who can help with training in low speed manoeuvers. Some sort of off-road training maybe? The fact that you've identified the specific technique/bit of riding you're having a problem with might enable a trainer to target and adapt their training? Good luck, anyway.
edit: Pebbles167 posted while I was typing, I 100% agree with his practical suggestions, all good advice.
edit: Pebbles167 posted while I was typing, I 100% agree with his practical suggestions, all good advice.
underwhelmist said:
- but there must be people who can help with training in low speed manoeuvers. -
What's the cone maneuvers stuff that you often see police all over the world doing? It's impressive. I reckon asking a police biker at a Bikesafe day or something would give good insight.underwhelmist said:
- Some sort of off-road training maybe? -
Almost certainly. Not that I was any good, but my low speed control got better after only 20 minutes riding a Suzuki Van Van on some dirt. In addition to what the fine gentlemen above have said, may I suggest another course of action.
If you're concerned about the bike (and of course concerned about dropping something you care about) - why not get a little used 125 to get some practice in - even over winter since the 125 getting a bit tatty isnt going to lose you much if any money. Once you've 'proved' to yourself that you can master that and build up your confidence again, get out on your big boy bike and see how it fares.
If all goes well; come spring sell the 125 snotter for near or above what you bought it for and get back out on your current bike, if you've managed it on the 125 but on yours remains a challenge maybe look at a different bike with a lower seat height.
If you're concerned about the bike (and of course concerned about dropping something you care about) - why not get a little used 125 to get some practice in - even over winter since the 125 getting a bit tatty isnt going to lose you much if any money. Once you've 'proved' to yourself that you can master that and build up your confidence again, get out on your big boy bike and see how it fares.
If all goes well; come spring sell the 125 snotter for near or above what you bought it for and get back out on your current bike, if you've managed it on the 125 but on yours remains a challenge maybe look at a different bike with a lower seat height.
i2i might help. Not that close to you but if it fixes the problem it would be worth it i reckon.
https://i2imca.com/Home/CoursesMachineControl
https://i2imca.com/Home/CoursesMachineControl
A good idea getting a cheap bike to practice on.
I've thought about it a bit more and I reckon the solution is a combination of Pebbles167's points - relaxed shoulders, bent elbows, look where you want to go, revs up, slip clutch, modulate speed with back brake - and just being confident that once the bike is moving at any speed (even below walking pace), it's going to want to stay upright. The only thing that will make it fall over is if you hit the front brake, so don't touch the front brake, or stall, so keep the revs up and slip the clutch. Some of the best riding advice I ever received was that the bike will go where you're looking, so look up and off into the direction you want to go in.
What bike is it, and why do you say it's too tall for you? Does it have a particularly lumpy power delivery, like a big single? Is it running right - are things like the throttle cable and chain adjusted correctly? If they're not then drive can be snatchy, which would cause problems with slow maneouvres. s
t, I cannot spell that word!
I've thought about it a bit more and I reckon the solution is a combination of Pebbles167's points - relaxed shoulders, bent elbows, look where you want to go, revs up, slip clutch, modulate speed with back brake - and just being confident that once the bike is moving at any speed (even below walking pace), it's going to want to stay upright. The only thing that will make it fall over is if you hit the front brake, so don't touch the front brake, or stall, so keep the revs up and slip the clutch. Some of the best riding advice I ever received was that the bike will go where you're looking, so look up and off into the direction you want to go in.
What bike is it, and why do you say it's too tall for you? Does it have a particularly lumpy power delivery, like a big single? Is it running right - are things like the throttle cable and chain adjusted correctly? If they're not then drive can be snatchy, which would cause problems with slow maneouvres. s
t, I cannot spell that word!Book a session with whatever local outfit does CBTs in your area. Get some instruction and practice on their bike, and that should improve your confidence on yours.
A bike that fits you better and with good low speed handling might also help a lot, if you can afford to change.
A bike that fits you better and with good low speed handling might also help a lot, if you can afford to change.
Edited by outnumbered on Monday 26th September 07:23
Sportsbikes with limited steering movement can be a real problem.
A bike that's too tall for you can be a real problem.
A bike that stalls can be a real problem.
So suggesting it's all in the OP's head is perhaps not very helpful.
Surely there are plenty of bikes to choose from which are small enough, have plenty of steering lock and engines not too prone to stalling?
It's not as if bikes with medium sized engines are exactly sluggish.
The stalling is probably related to awkward throttle control when you've got near right lock?
Or possibly the bike is not running exactly right at small throttle openings/low rpm.
You need the clutch to work nicely,
Any awkwardness with the clutch or throttle action or throttle response will make life difficult, once you know you have a problem these things compound.
I rate the idea of off-road riding, I've dabbled a bit and done a day on a KTM. It's a whole different world and teaches you a lot, but coming back to the sportsbike it won't change the fundamental of awkwardness near a limited full lock, it may even push you to expect the bars to turn further than they do.
I say this having ridden bikes with clip-ons where I had to do 3 point turns on an A road.
I can get both feet flat on the ground astride any bike I've every been comfortable with, and a few which I've felt were horrible top-heavy bruisers come to that. I'd never want a bike that was too big for me, and I've seen a lot of smaller people turned off bikes by going too big, or too big, too soon. OTOH I know a few people with short legs who coped with Laverdas back in the day.
A bike that's too tall for you can be a real problem.
A bike that stalls can be a real problem.
So suggesting it's all in the OP's head is perhaps not very helpful.
Surely there are plenty of bikes to choose from which are small enough, have plenty of steering lock and engines not too prone to stalling?
It's not as if bikes with medium sized engines are exactly sluggish.
The stalling is probably related to awkward throttle control when you've got near right lock?
Or possibly the bike is not running exactly right at small throttle openings/low rpm.
You need the clutch to work nicely,
Any awkwardness with the clutch or throttle action or throttle response will make life difficult, once you know you have a problem these things compound.
I rate the idea of off-road riding, I've dabbled a bit and done a day on a KTM. It's a whole different world and teaches you a lot, but coming back to the sportsbike it won't change the fundamental of awkwardness near a limited full lock, it may even push you to expect the bars to turn further than they do.
I say this having ridden bikes with clip-ons where I had to do 3 point turns on an A road.
I can get both feet flat on the ground astride any bike I've every been comfortable with, and a few which I've felt were horrible top-heavy bruisers come to that. I'd never want a bike that was too big for me, and I've seen a lot of smaller people turned off bikes by going too big, or too big, too soon. OTOH I know a few people with short legs who coped with Laverdas back in the day.
The frustration here is that this is a really easy issue to sort.
While all the replies so far have been well intentioned, they are concentrating on the wrong things. You only need to do 1 thing ...
LOOK WHERE YOU WANT TO GO!
Don't just glance and then return your eyes to 20ft in front of the bike. Keep your eyes focused on the vanishing point in the distance. I'll take real concious effort to do and it will initially be against all your current instincts but it's what is needed.
The car park worked because there wasn't anything else to focus on!
While all the replies so far have been well intentioned, they are concentrating on the wrong things. You only need to do 1 thing ...
LOOK WHERE YOU WANT TO GO!
Don't just glance and then return your eyes to 20ft in front of the bike. Keep your eyes focused on the vanishing point in the distance. I'll take real concious effort to do and it will initially be against all your current instincts but it's what is needed.
The car park worked because there wasn't anything else to focus on!
Where in the country are you? I'm doing this course on Sunday
https://www.essex-fire.gov.uk/Road_Safety/FireBike...
Which would seem to cover it and a few other bits. But essentially Black K1 has said it, just focus on where you want to go & you'll go there. Good luck.
https://www.essex-fire.gov.uk/Road_Safety/FireBike...
Which would seem to cover it and a few other bits. But essentially Black K1 has said it, just focus on where you want to go & you'll go there. Good luck.
I had kinda the same issue when I first started riding, but mine was slow speed manoeuvres like u turns I’d get to full lock the bike all crossed up and panic and feet down.
The stalling is basically not keeping the revs up enough whilst slipping the clutch. The second is trying to turn the bike with the bars instead of leaning it and pulling off with confidence.
I did my test on a mt07 which kinda rides like a bicycle then jumping on a Gsxr I tried to ride it the same way but struggled a bit with the pull off into a turn. Then I realised the way to turn it is by pulling off with more revs while slipping the clutch and lean the bike instead, if I feel the bike gonna fall I let the clutch out more and it picks itself up - but you gotta have the revs.
I know it sounds counterproductive but if the bike is leaned over and you panic and pull the clutch the only thing that’s gonna happen is the bike goes down.
IMHO the bars are pretty useless on sports bikes unless you’re doing car park manoeuvres where the speed stays constant rather than accelerating out of a turn.
The stalling is basically not keeping the revs up enough whilst slipping the clutch. The second is trying to turn the bike with the bars instead of leaning it and pulling off with confidence.
I did my test on a mt07 which kinda rides like a bicycle then jumping on a Gsxr I tried to ride it the same way but struggled a bit with the pull off into a turn. Then I realised the way to turn it is by pulling off with more revs while slipping the clutch and lean the bike instead, if I feel the bike gonna fall I let the clutch out more and it picks itself up - but you gotta have the revs.
I know it sounds counterproductive but if the bike is leaned over and you panic and pull the clutch the only thing that’s gonna happen is the bike goes down.
IMHO the bars are pretty useless on sports bikes unless you’re doing car park manoeuvres where the speed stays constant rather than accelerating out of a turn.
If you stick the bike in the garage in six months time you'll have the same problem, except worse; you're going to have to put the work in by the sounds of things: existing bike/cheap snotter and practice all winter, local training school or IAM/RosPA slow speed skills days (but the latter is probably done for the year).
You know it's just a mental glitch, you're scared of dropping the bike in that scenario: you need to keep repeating that scenario, forcing yourself to use the right technique, until it becomes automatic, the fear subsides and the confidence returns.
You know it's just a mental glitch, you're scared of dropping the bike in that scenario: you need to keep repeating that scenario, forcing yourself to use the right technique, until it becomes automatic, the fear subsides and the confidence returns.
You're not the only one. Some tips here: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Definitely try another bike before you give up.
Either of the previous suggestions, a cheap 125 or a bike school..
Another theory worth thinking about is the body position that a sportsbike puts you into. (Of course it depends on the OP’s bike some are more extreme than others)
You,re crouching over the bars with your body tucked in and the natural looking position is just in front of the bike so you have to force yourself to look further down the road.
A more upright position with wider bars may well help.
Thanks for all the replies, some really good suggestions. I like the idea of getting a cheap 125 to re-learn the technique and then see if I can transfer that back to my bike.
It seems that I have gone from doing it effortlessly without thinking, to not being able to do it and making multiple mistakes. Not looking where I’m going was definitely a part of the problem but the first carpark practice fixed that. But the anxiety on the road remained, and then dropping the bike on the second carpark practice has really messed my head up.
Not having enough revs on and slipping the clutch is another mistake I’m making. Yesterday I was focusing on that and making progress. But then when I had to turn right out of a junction, guess what, I stalled (but didn’t fall down).
My previous bike was a 675 Daytona and I didn’t have any such issues with that. Then I had a two year break. Now I have a S1000RR (had it for two years and 5000 miles).
It’s only very slightly taller than the Daytona but that makes a big difference. It’s of course a bit heavier.
I’m not sure why I’m struggling with the clutch/throttle. The clutch lever is at the extreme of my reach but that doesn’t feel a problem. There’s not much difference in movement of the throttle between stalling and revving the nuts off it.
I think the stress of the manoeuvre is playing havoc with my hand controls as it shouldn’t be that difficult.
It seems that I have gone from doing it effortlessly without thinking, to not being able to do it and making multiple mistakes. Not looking where I’m going was definitely a part of the problem but the first carpark practice fixed that. But the anxiety on the road remained, and then dropping the bike on the second carpark practice has really messed my head up.
Not having enough revs on and slipping the clutch is another mistake I’m making. Yesterday I was focusing on that and making progress. But then when I had to turn right out of a junction, guess what, I stalled (but didn’t fall down).
My previous bike was a 675 Daytona and I didn’t have any such issues with that. Then I had a two year break. Now I have a S1000RR (had it for two years and 5000 miles).
It’s only very slightly taller than the Daytona but that makes a big difference. It’s of course a bit heavier.
I’m not sure why I’m struggling with the clutch/throttle. The clutch lever is at the extreme of my reach but that doesn’t feel a problem. There’s not much difference in movement of the throttle between stalling and revving the nuts off it.
I think the stress of the manoeuvre is playing havoc with my hand controls as it shouldn’t be that difficult.
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