Is this the pinnacle of motorcycle engine development?

[black-k1]

With the requirement to remove all fossil fuel powered road going vehicles from our roads and from the roads of a large part of the developed world, has development stopped on new ICE for motorcycles?

I suspect that while there may be tweaks and changes to existing engines, we are unlikely to see many, if any, new engines, especially in larger capacities, ever again. That means that what we have now is likely to be the final hurrah of the motorcycle engine as we know it.

Does that mean that Honda will never make the V4 “Fireblade” that seems to have been discussed in the press for the last 25+ years.

Will we never see a Hayabusa/ZZR1400 crushing hyper-bike engine?

Will a 225+ bhp sports bike for the road never make it to reality?

Even with the existing engines, I suspect that most of the development focus will be on improving efficiency, reducing emissions (and noise) and maximising use options (sports engines in sports tourers and tourers etc.) rather than improving performance.

[Pica-Pica]

black-k1 said:

With the requirement to remove all fossil fuel powered road going vehicles from our roads and from the roads of a large part of the developed world, has development stopped on new ICE for motorcycles?

I suspect that while there may be tweaks and changes to existing engines, we are unlikely to see many, if any, new engines, especially in larger capacities, ever again. That means that what we have now is likely to be the final hurrah of the motorcycle engine as we know it.

Does that mean that Honda will never make the V4 “Fireblade” that seems to have been discussed in the press for the last 25+ years.

Will we never see a Hayabusa/ZZR1400 crushing hyper-bike engine?

Will a 225+ bhp sports bike for the road never make it to reality?

Even with the existing engines, I suspect that most of the development focus will be on improving efficiency, reducing emissions (and noise) and maximising use options (sports engines in sports tourers and tourers etc.) rather than improving performance.

‘Engine’ sound such an old-fashioned term now. It conjures up images of visits to a science museum, with displays of external combustion engines.

[bogie]

Yep, I have to agree. Doubtful we will see much more development. Although Kawasaki seem to be planning a few more supercharged models, do they help emissions as well as power delivery ? e.g. less emissions for same power output.

For those who prefer internal combustion engines, best buy the dream bike now and hang onto it

[Krikkit]

I think we'll see at least one more generation of engines from the big manufacturers - combustion bikes will still be around for many years yet.

Cars not so much - I can't see many manufacturers investing in anything but small incremental updates now.

[Hungrymc]

black-k1 said:

Will we never see a Hayabusa/ZZR1400 crushing hyper-bike engine?

Will a 225+ bhp sports bike for the road never make it to reality?

I’m hoping (I may be being an optimist) that we’ll see 300hp electric bikes….. maybe not in a timescale where I’ll get to enjoy them (that’s me being less of an optimist)

[liner33]

Hungrymc said:

I’m hoping (I may be being an optimist) that we’ll see 300hp electric bikes….. maybe not in a timescale where I’ll get to enjoy them (that’s me being less of an optimist)

Cant see that for road use , too much of a handful

[fred bloggs]

Hungrymc said:

I’m hoping (I may be being an optimist) that we’ll see 300hp electric bikes….. maybe not in a timescale where I’ll get to enjoy them (that’s me being less of an optimist)

People still struggle with power ratings for electric motivation. It not measured in BHP, its in kwh .

Bhp is a product of torque over time, and electric motors make all the torque from zero rpm, so its utterly pointless measuring in Horsepower. Its like saying Im ten stone tall.

[Krikkit]

fred bloggs said:

Hungrymc said:

I’m hoping (I may be being an optimist) that we’ll see 300hp electric bikes….. maybe not in a timescale where I’ll get to enjoy them (that’s me being less of an optimist)

People still struggle with power ratings for electric motivation. It not measured in BHP, its in kwh .

Bhp is a product of torque over time, and electric motors make all the torque from zero rpm, so its utterly pointless measuring in Horsepower. Its like saying Im ten stone tall.

None of that makes any sense... Why would you try and measure performance in anything other than Nm and kW?

kWh tells you nowt but potential range.

[LukeBrown66]

I would say the pinnacle is always moving onwards, making a MotoGP race bike for the road was something Ducati did first with the sedici really but it was done in various ways before that.

For me there have been several, the VDue Bimota, even though it didn't work very well was a staggering achievement for a small manufacturer.

The NR750 similarly immense from the other side of the equation.

But also stuff like the Cub, the scooter generation, trail bikes that can take immense punishment and still carry on, commuter bikes in the East that run on garbage yet never break down and if they do are maintained with homemade parts and run for decades.

That to me is immense engineering on a different level.

[srob]

Looking at the stats, why would they make a V4 Fireblade? The only reason now would be as a proper "last hurrah" for the brand that is Fireblade.

Ignoring the potential of electric bikes (which I'm still dubious about the longevity of (along with cars) as a solution, but that's another debate!) people are buying different sorts of bikes now.

In 2020 in the UK just over 7500 new supersports bikes were sold compared to over 31,000 'nakeds' - which admittedly covers a bit of a range! The cost to develop a competitive new supersports bike would be 10 times that to develop a naked that people will buy, and that's ignoring the bill of materials to make the thing.

I have no real desire to own a superbike but I do love them but the sad fact is that if people like Honda and Kawasaki chase that avenue it'll end up the same way the British bike industry went 50 years ago!

https://www.statista.com/statistics/312528/motorcy...

[Freakuk]

The Ducati V4R with exhaust claims 231bhp, so we have achieved that.

You also have to consider that MotoGP announced this week the move to biofuels etc in a few years, so I would imagine they'll be engine development to get the most power they can from that fuel... will that trickle down to the road, unlikely.

We have another 14 years before ICE engines aren't sellable in the UK so plenty of time for another engine or two, I guess it depends on where the market is, if we ban ICE in 2035 other countries it could be 2040/50 so there's still life in ICE bikes.

[Rubin215]

fred bloggs said:

Its like saying Im ten stone tall.

I am ten stone tall.

The problem is I'm sixteen stone!

[Hungrymc]

fred bloggs said:

Hungrymc said:

I’m hoping (I may be being an optimist) that we’ll see 300hp electric bikes….. maybe not in a timescale where I’ll get to enjoy them (that’s me being less of an optimist)

People still struggle with power ratings for electric motivation. It not measured in BHP, its in kwh .

Bhp is a product of torque over time, and electric motors make all the torque from zero rpm, so its utterly pointless measuring in Horsepower. Its like saying Im ten stone tall.

kWh is capacity isn’t it? With the KW part being power without a time function… So yes, ‘people’ do struggle :-)

To be honest, it wasn’t the target of 300bhp that I really meant anyway, that was a figure plucked to represent upping the performance ante.

[fred bloggs]

The H part of KWH is entirely dependent on how many KW you deploy over a given period.

Anyway, a 300 bhp bike ? In a sea of divorcees in giant SUV's checking their make up/facebook. Rather you than me.

Edited by fred bloggs on Wednesday 1st December 13:38

[black-k1]

Freakuk said:

The Ducati V4R with exhaust claims 231bhp, so we have achieved that.

You also have to consider that MotoGP announced this week the move to biofuels etc in a few years, so I would imagine they'll be engine development to get the most power they can from that fuel... will that trickle down to the road, unlikely.

We have another 14 years before ICE engines aren't sellable in the UK so plenty of time for another engine or two, I guess it depends on where the market is, if we ban ICE in 2035 other countries it could be 2040/50 so there's still life in ICE bikes.

For me though, the question is will the manufacturers use the 14 years to develop new ICE engines or will they use those years to develop electric engines?

Personally, I'd be surprised if much was spent on designing new engines that then need tooling in factories etc. before that can be delivered to market to try and recover development costs. Especially as I suspect the market will be difficult to judge and more buyers may well be interested in electric bikes. Being an early player in the mass "desirable" electric bike market will, I'm sure, be a point of focus for most companies.

Add to that, I suspect that the availability of petrol will be increasingly challenging and expensive (it's one of the few levers a government has to move away from the use of fossil fuels) making ICE bikes less attractive.

[Hungrymc]

fred bloggs said:

The H part of KWH is entirely dependent on how many KW you deploy over a given period.

Anyway, a 300 bhp bike ? In a sea of divorcees in giant SUV's checking their make up/facebook. Rather you than me.

Edited by fred bloggs on Wednesday 1st December 13:38

I agree… rather me than you :-)

[Krikkit]

fred bloggs said:

The H part of KWH is entirely dependent on how many KW you deploy over a given period.

So how is it any good for performance comparison then? Come on.

[crofty1984]

fred bloggs said:

People still struggle with power ratings for electric motivation. It not measured in BHP, its in kwh .

Bhp is a product of torque over time, and electric motors make all the torque from zero rpm, so its utterly pointless measuring in Horsepower. Its like saying Im ten stone tall.

I think you mean kW.

[_Neal_]

crofty1984 said:

fred bloggs said:

People still struggle with power ratings for electric motivation. It not measured in BHP, its in kwh .

Bhp is a product of torque over time, and electric motors make all the torque from zero rpm, so its utterly pointless measuring in Horsepower. Its like saying Im ten stone tall.

I think you mean kW.

Agreed. I've seen the power of (petrol) bikes quoted in kW for years now (since pre-electric bikes at least) - it's a Euro thing isn't it? Useful in terms of comparing electric and petrol bikes as said above - the data is all really easy to find. 2022 Ducati V4S is apparently 158.5kW, Kawasaki 650RS 50.2 kW, for example.

[black-k1]

Hungrymc said:

black-k1 said:

Will we never see a Hayabusa/ZZR1400 crushing hyper-bike engine?

Will a 225+ bhp sports bike for the road never make it to reality?

I’m hoping (I may be being an optimist) that we’ll see 300hp electric bikes….. maybe not in a timescale where I’ll get to enjoy them (that’s me being less of an optimist)

I too love the idea of a 223.71kw bike but I think that is not hugely difficult. What will likely be more difficult will be getting it to run for more than about 45 minutes.